I don't feat the foam, BUT...

...it sure does annoy me sometimes.

I switched to Starsan from Iodophor shortly after I started brewing, I love the ease of use. But, when sanitizing a carboy, I always end up with 1/2 full of foam. I know, I know, it's supposed to protect and sanitize as it rises up, but what annoys me is when it pushes out through the top as I'm filling, carrying some of the wort with it, causing a sticky mess.

Any ideas on how to tame the foam? I really don't want to use Iodophor for the carboys, but it seems like the easier thing to do, I just get overly worried about the chemical coming through if I don't let it drain well enough.

Appreciate any thoughts on this!

Thanks,

Kosch

I've never had the trouble you're describing, where the foam carries wort with it when it pushes out. But, you could always just use saniclean: http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/breweries/homebrewing/products/

Simply? Don't splash. I just put maybe 1/2 gallon in my carboy, pick it up and move it around so all surfaces are touched and coated. I put it down until I'm about to fill then repeat the process and drain. I'll have a small amount of foam but very manageable.

What's annoying about it? I think it's pretty fun. And I know that all that foam is reaching into every nook and cranny of my gear.

I don't get why folks have such issues with it. "Stupid Starsan Tricks" or why you shouldn't fear the foam...

I just wait a few minutes, then pour it out again. It usually takes most of the foam with it the second time.

I guess I am some super foamy Starsan, because what I do is:

1) Fill the carboy with about 1-1.5 gallons Starsan
2) Shake it up to coat all the surfaces
3) Let sit for about 10 minutes
4) Pour out (this still leaves a ton of foam)
5) Let sit inverted for about 20-30 mins

I run my wort through double grain bags to filter out the crud, so can't do much about it splashing there.

Revvy: Well, again, the only thing I have a problem with is the foam + wort bubbling out the top. I understand all the other points. Sometimes it doesn't catch any of the wort, most of the time it does. Makes the carboy sticky, and that's my issue. I guess I have to find a different way to filter stuff out to fill from the bottom like I do if I don't want it to happen.

MalFet: I was looking at that, but it says it's a "final rinse" product, no "no rinse" like Starsan?

Keep in mind, the foam I am talking about is 1/3 - 1/2 of a 6.5 gallon carboy (that I primary 5 gallons in). Do folks just not shake it up as much as I do?

Thanks,

Kosch

I've seen videos and read about this foaming. It seems strange to me to fill the keg or carboy with all that foam in there. I would always remove all of it before I filled it. I assume it is ok to do this but having that much non-beer chemical mixed in with the beer bothers me.

bwilliamson said:

I've seen videos and read about this foaming. It seems strange to me to fill the keg or carboy with all that foam in there. I would always remove all of it before I filled it. I assume it is ok to do this but having that much non-beer chemical mixed in with the beer bothers me.

Click to expand...

The information has been repeated on here a zillion times, including the links to the podcast by the creators of starsan. IT BREAKS DOWN in contact with the beer to benign compounds found in just about every softdrink (at least cola based) AND IS EATEN BY THE YEAST (and loved even by septic systems.) It doesn't stay in there in it's original form. Properly diluted starsan is perfectly safe.

Again, its a contact sanitizer so there is really no reason to shake the crap out of the carboy. You can give it a reasonable swish around the entire surface while spinning it around. Do that and you will only have a bit of foam, no where close to even a 1/3 of the carboy. Starsan doesnt have to be agitated to be effective.

Bricks41 said:

Again, its a contact sanitizer so there is really no reason to shake the crap out of the carboy. You can give it a reasonable swish around the entire surface while spinning it around. Do that and you will only have a bit of foam, no where close to even a 1/3 of the carboy. Starsan doesnt have to be agitated to be effective.

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Doesn't it require a 30 second contact time? I basically try to keep it moving around for 30 seconds, which is easier done by just shaking it, so that is why it foams up so much. Maybe I'll try some more gentle swishing/rolling for not quite so long.

Thanks!

Kosch

Kosch said:

Doesn't it require a 30 second contact time? I basically try to keep it moving around for 30 seconds, which is easier done by just shaking it, so that is why it foams up so much. Maybe I'll try some more gentle swishing/rolling for not quite so long.

Thanks!

Kosch

Click to expand...

30 seconds is the fda mandated contact time on the label. Chcuk talley says in both podcasts that it is actually must faster. But basically, you just have to wet the surface and leave it be.

Revvy said:

30 seconds is the fda mandated contact time on the label. Chcuk talley says in both podcasts that it is actually must faster. But basically, you just have to wet the surface and leave it be.

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You know, I had actually read that before, but I guess I was still being paranoid. Especially now after moving to all grain and having grain dust all over (I crush my grains in the basement, but pouring into the mash tun still goes all over).

So since I'm not fearing the foam, I guess I should also not fear the FDA?

I will try to relax a bit more about it!

bwilliamson said:

I've seen videos and read about this foaming. It seems strange to me to fill the keg or carboy with all that foam in there. I would always remove all of it before I filled it. I assume it is ok to do this but having that much non-beer chemical mixed in with the beer bothers me.

Click to expand...

I have no problem not fearing the foam in a carboy, but I can't bring myself to leave it in a keg and add it to a finished beer. That's just me.

Spartan1979 said:

I have no problem not fearing the foam in a carboy, but I can't bring myself to leave it in a keg and add it to a finished beer. That's just me.

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Not just you. I use Starsan for equipment and fermenters but I use Iodophor for kegs and bottles. My reasoning is that foam is made up of tiny little bubbles full of air (O2). We go to great lengths to reduce the exposure to O2, so why add it back in?

Reelale said:

Not just you. I use Starsan for equipment and fermenters but I use Iodophor for kegs and bottles. My reasoning is that foam is made up of tiny little bubbles full of air (O2). We go to great lengths to reduce the exposure to O2, so why add it back in?

Click to expand...

What do you imagine the keg/bottle is full of when it doesn't have bubbles if not also air?

Revvy said:

The information has been repeated on here a zillion times, including the links to the podcast by the creators of starsan. IT BREAKS DOWN in contact with the beer to benign compounds found in just about every softdrink (at least cola based) AND IS EATEN BY THE YEAST (and loved even by septic systems.) It doesn't stay in there in it's original form. Properly diluted starsan is perfectly safe.

Click to expand...

Well, the chemical doing the sanatizing (phosphoric acid) is food safe (its in cola) and may be consumed in part by yeast.

However, the ingredient (anionic surfactant) that makes the foam (dodecyl benzene sulfonic acid) is not any food product and is NOT EATEN BY THE YEAST. It is not considered toxic, but you are ingesting the equivalent of small amounts if dishwasher detergent.

Does that bother you? Personal choice. I keep my surfactant ingestion to a minimum, so I get rid of the vast majority of the foam after sanitizing. No infections thus far after hundreds of batches.

g-star said:

Well, the chemical doing the sanatizing (phosphoric acid) is food safe (its in cola) and may be consumed in part by yeast.

However, the ingredient (anionic surfactant) that makes the foam (dodecyl benzene sulfonic acid) is not any food product and is NOT EATEN BY THE YEAST. It is not considered toxic, but you are ingesting the equivalent of small amounts if dishwasher detergent.

Does that bother you? Personal choice. I keep my surfactant ingestion to a minimum, so I get rid of the vast majority of the foam after sanitizing. No infections thus far after hundreds of batches.

Click to expand...

Granted I also prefer to minimize the foam as much as possible, but I would tend to believe that anyone using a dishwasher would have a similar amount of residue left on their dishes even after the rinse cycle.

MalFet said:

What do you imagine the keg/bottle is full of when it doesn't have bubbles if not also air?

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I don't know about Reelale but I purge my kegs with CO2 before racking into them. And I only bottle with a BeerGun.

Spartan1979 said:

I don't know about Reelale but I purge my kegs with CO2 before racking into them. And I only bottle with a BeerGun.

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If you are purging your kegs, the rise and drop of pressure should be collapsing the foam in any case, no?

Spartan1979 said:

I don't know about Reelale but I purge my kegs with CO2 before racking into them. And I only bottle with a BeerGun.

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Me too. And after racking. I think the whole idea is to minimize contact with oxygen. Displacing as much O2 as possible just seems like a good practice.

Reelale said:

Me too. And after racking. I think the whole idea is to minimize contact with oxygen. Displacing as much O2 as possible just seems like a good practice.

Click to expand...

Of course, but same question that I asked Spartan1979: when you add pressure to purge the kegs, doesn't that collapse the foam? If it doesn't, something isn't working right.

MalFet said:

Of course, but same question that I asked Spartan1979: when you add pressure to purge the kegs, doesn't that collapse the foam? If it doesn't, something isn't working right.

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You know, I never really checked. Physics would say it does. But then there is that liquid remaining in the finished beer. A miniscule amount, but there nonetheless. Iodophor remedies this.

Reelale said:

You know, I never really checked. Physics would say it does. But then there is that liquid remaining in the finished beer. A miniscule amount, but there nonetheless. Iodophor remedies this.

Click to expand...

To each his own, of course. I've always been more concerned by the presence of iodine than by any of the ingredients in starsan. In reality, neither is probably a problem, but I am skeptical of the notion that starsan introduces oxygen to the beer.

Revvy said:

30 seconds is the fda mandated contact time on the label. Chcuk talley says in both podcasts that it is actually must faster. But basically, you just have to wet the surface and leave it be.

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That's weird. I have an old small bottle and it says 1-2 minutes. I have a new big bottle, and it says "At least one minute."

To the OP, there's nothing wrong with using iodophor on your carboys. I use iodophor for my glass vessels and my kegs. If you follow the directions on the bottle, you won't get off flavors. And iodine is an essential part of the diet. I'm pretty sure dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid isn't.

BBL_Brewer said:

That's weird. I have an old small bottle and it says 1-2 minutes. I have a new big bottle, and it says "At least one minute."

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It's been years since I hear the podcast. It COULD be "FDA MANDATE 1-2 Minutes, reality 30 seconds." Go listen to the podcast if you want it clarified. All I know is Talley said he HAD to put one thing when in reality the kill time is much faster.

Like I said earlier, the best information, rather than fear and speculation ("Oxygen bubbles", really? ) Is Talley himself. Listen to his words, and even email 5-star if you have specific questions. He used to answer Hb-ers questions directly. Yo probably can still find his direct email online.

Why don't you actually EMAIL 5-star about the bubbles and oxygenation.....

I don't think there's any reason to be smug about it. I happen to disagree with the idea that bubbles could lead to the introduction of oxygen, but it's a perfectly reasonable line of thought.

And, perhaps asking the manufacturer about potential problems with its products might not be the most reliable approach to scientific skepticism rolleyes: right back atcha man )

MalFet said:

I don't think there's any reason to be smug about it. I happen to disagree with the idea that bubbles could lead to the introduction of oxygen, but it's a perfectly reasonable line of thought.

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No, it's a stupid concept. Totally outside the realm of possiblities. Revvy says so.

Sometimes it's easy to get the foam out if when you empty the carboy ya give it a good swirl so it vortexes as if comes out. Most of the foam comes out that way and the rest that may not is harmless and actually good so I don't take much effort past that. The trick is not making foam by splashing or shaking. Swirling good, shaking bad.

Revvy said:

It's been years since I hear the podcast. It COULD be "FDA MANDATE 1-2 Minutes, reality 30 seconds." Go listen to the podcast if you want it clarified. All I know is Talley said he HAD to put one thing when in reality the kill time is much faster.

Like I said earlier, the best information, rather than fear and speculation ("Oxygen bubbles", really? ) Is Talley himself. Listen to his words, and even email 5-star if you have specific questions. He used to answer Hb-ers questions directly. Yo probably can still find his direct email online.

Why don't you actually EMAIL 5-star about the bubbles and oxygenation.....

Click to expand...

The best information NEVER comes from the guy with a financial interest in selling it.

StittsvilleJames said:

The best information NEVER comes from the guy with a financial interest in selling it.

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Clearly you are not big on customer service, whatever your line of work. Serving ALL customer requests is the best way to keep that customer. Lying and scheming simply to push your product will not be tolerated by the market. Surely there are snake oil salesmen out there, but the word "NEVER" might be a tad strong.

I feel I need to side with Revvy here a bit. The concept that oxygen will be more readily absorbed from air inside of a bubble than just the air inside of the keg is not reasonable, rather is the result of an over-active homebrewer's imagination. The reason you don't fear the foam is because even with a carboy/keg half full of foam, the volume of starsan that is actually in there is very small. Ever tried to measure the thickness of a bubble? Just put the beer in the thing and drink it.

2bluewagons said:

Clearly you are not big on customer service, whatever your line of work. Serving ALL customer requests is the best way to keep that customer. Lying and scheming simply to push your product will not be tolerated by the market. Surely there are snake oil salesmen out there, but the word "NEVER" might be a tad strong.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is accusing Charlie Talley of anything even remotely approaching dishonesty. I met him once, and he seems like a great guy. He makes fine products and he does a really great job with customer support. He believes in his product, as he should. He has done a lot for homebrewers over the years, and he has every drop of my respect.

And, I can relate to that. I do coffee import/export, and I am extremely proud of my product. I can count the number of complaints I've had over the years on one hand, and I do my best to run an honest business. At the same time, some people believe that coffee is bad for you. I think they're wrong, but I also recognize that I'm not an unbiased source. If you are going to have a commission to evaluate the effects of coffee, I probably shouldn't be on it. That's not because I'm dishonest, but because I've spent the last ten years thinking about how great coffee is. It's just the way I think, and any perceived flaws are going to take a lot longer to sink into my skull than into that of someone objective.

2bluewagons said:

I feel I need to side with Revvy here a bit. The concept that oxygen will be more readily absorbed from air inside of a bubble than just the air inside of the keg is not reasonable, rather is the result of an over-active homebrewer's imagination. The reason you don't fear the foam is because even with a carboy/keg half full of foam, the volume of starsan that is actually in there is very small. Ever tried to measure the thickness of a bubble? Just put the beer in the thing and drink it.

Click to expand...

If the bubble is thin, that means the air inside the bubble is taking up most of the volume, no? I think that was the point.

g-star said:

Well, the chemical doing the sanatizing (phosphoric acid) is food safe (its in cola) and may be consumed in part by yeast.

However, the ingredient (anionic surfactant) that makes the foam (dodecyl benzene sulfonic acid) is not any food product and is NOT EATEN BY THE YEAST. It is not considered toxic, but you are ingesting the equivalent of small amounts if dishwasher detergent.

Does that bother you? Personal choice. I keep my surfactant ingestion to a minimum, so I get rid of the vast majority of the foam after sanitizing. No infections thus far after hundreds of batches.

Click to expand...

I work for a company that produces dodecyl benzene sulfonic acid (DDBSA). It is produced by many surfactant manufactures so this is not proprietary information but it is in toothpaste. Unless you do not brush your teeth you do ingest it, I hope, at least twice a day. On the other side of the coin though, it is used by industrial tire manufactures for tire cleaners.

I use 2 cups to sanitize a carboy, gently swirling it around, then dump it back into the santizing bucket. There are no large amounts of foam to deal with. I have no idea what all of the food products that I consume (including commercial beer) have been through and what type of sanitizers they have been in contact with but I have little fear of anything that StarSan contributes, it's just too minute to worry about.

Kosch said:

1) Fill the carboy with about 1-1.5 gallons Starsan

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I think this is your problem. I use about a cup or two. Swirl it around. Not too much foam.

Kosch said:

...it sure does annoy me sometimes.

I switched to Starsan from Iodophor shortly after I started brewing, I love the ease of use. But, when sanitizing a carboy, I always end up with 1/2 full of foam. I know, I know, it's supposed to protect and sanitize as it rises up, but what annoys me is when it pushes out through the top as I'm filling, carrying some of the wort with it, causing a sticky mess.

Any ideas on how to tame the foam? I really don't want to use Iodophor for the carboys, but it seems like the easier thing to do, I just get overly worried about the chemical coming through if I don't let it drain

Click to expand...

I had the same issue for a while, but have started using less starsan more efficiently, i.e. putting a small amount in the carboy/bottle/bucket and swirling to coat, pouring out starsan and have almost no bubbles. I always used 30 seconds as a good contact time, but as long as it coats well it will probably take about that long to dry.

MalFet said:

If you are purging your kegs, the rise and drop of pressure should be collapsing the foam in any case, no?

Click to expand...

I'm not purging them with the lid on. I run some co2 through the out tube hopefully pushing some of the air out at least creating a blanket of CO2 in the bottom of the keg.

I haven't been arguing that you should get the foam out your keg, not fearing your foam is probably correct. I just don't like the idea of that being in my finished beer. Just a quirk, but I don't like broccoli either.

Spartan1979 said:

I'm not purging them with the lid on. I run some co2 through the out tube hopefully pushing some of the air out at least creating a blanket of CO2 in the bottom of the keg.

I haven't been arguing that you should get the foam out your keg, not fearing your foam is probably correct. I just don't like the idea of that being in my finished beer. Just a quirk, but I don't like broccoli either.

Click to expand...

I got no gripes with that.

For what it's worth, I did some experiments on keg purging a while back. Nothing too technical, just seeing what I had to do to make a lighter go out. The CO2 didn't seem to behave like a "blanket", but rather mixed quickly and thoroughly with the oxygen. To get the oxygen out of a non-sealed keg, I had to run the tanks for quite a long time.