if 90% are extract brewing. why the sudden rush to all grain ?

I love everything about AG brewing,from making my keggle to putting together my mash tun. but I was damn proud of my extract beers when I started. are my beers better now? hell yes they are, but thats from temp control of fermentation, learning and just doing it more.

amandabab said:

I guess I'm rare. I gave up all grain and do mostly partials

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I do an awful lot of partial mash despite having some successful all grain beers. Yes, there are beers where even a couple pounds of extract simply won't do. However, there are plenty of times where I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel, and a little extract can greatly simplify a brew day.

The fact it costs 35 bucks for a 50lb bag of 2 row as opposed to 50lbs of dme at 150. I know the dme will go further... but okay, sure, i'll buy two bags of 2 row, get more out of it and ONLY pay half as much. The cost savings is crazy. THATS what changed my mind from extract to ag biab. I only do 3-4 gallon batches due to equipment.. but thats enough for me!

Not to mention there are more grain options so you can make this exactly how you like it.

It's quite simple...the grain allows a brewer more control...like gas stove allows a chef better control. That's the best I can come with.

Oddly enough a 100 percent extract beer I made years ago had advanced and professional brewers stumped. It cost me 30$ in malt extract and 15$ in spices/botanicals but i"l be darned it was the most complex beer I ever made.

A professional brewer told me extract brewing can yield just as good results. Most pro's use grain because it's cheaper and has more variables to control depending on style.

A lot of "extract twang" as they call it is because the beer was bottled too green or carbonated too early.

Sometimes when times is a factor extract works wonders....One brewer called it "Better Crocker Brewing" but I'll be damned if my beer cake mix didn't taste darn good.

I really haven't seen what OP is describing. It seems people could care less what level of brewing others are doing. Generally there's comradery in homebrewing, period. There is the periodic dbag that answers bottling questions with keg answers, or general basic beer questions with elitest all grain answers, but such idiocy will always exist on the web and in HB more than anything seems much less prevalent to me.

By and large, the only push to AG I've experienced has been my own. Most show up extract brewers, naturally on a quest for more knowledge on their new-found passion and gradually end up neck-deep in AG, with a yeast bank, hops growing, and DIY projects galore laying about.

From personal experience, I never once felt looked-down upon for being an extract brewer, heck there's even very civil treatment of Mr. Beermasters. I'd love to hear more about where OP is coming from, cause it seems out of left-field to me.

I started AG due to cost, I've spent $150 on the last 10 batches, the only extra money I spent to make the move was for a turkey fryer and a paint strainer bag.

As far as time goes since I can bring 7 gallons of water to a boil much faster with the fryer the difference in time is only about an hour.

I have made excellent beer with extract and make more flavorful beer with AG, I don't look down on extract brewers and never would in the end we ALL make beer.

I made some really tasty beer with extract and there is absolutely nothing wrong with sticking with it. That said, like others have said, I wanted to step deeper into the process of grain to glass and have more control in the process. I wanted to perfect my beers and have more control of fermentability. There are certain styles of beer, like the two Saisons I have in process, that are very hard to perfect with extract - they need to be dry as a bone. I can mash for a very dry finish and it's hard to get extract to dry out enough for this style as example. All that said, two of my most memorable beers were done with extract. The NB Dry Irish Stout Kit was my first beer where everyone really raved about my homebrew. I also made an arrogant bastard inspired beer that was a real hit as well. Do what you like but it's a logical next step to all grain for most people who are into lots of styles and the craft of making beer. My 2 cents....

I'd add that I spent today canning 6.25 gallons of starter today from 8# of 2-row. That's a chunk of change in DME!

I read somewhere where a home brewer said (to paraphrase), "all-grain brewing improves your beer by 10% but requires 200% more work". That being said, I still want to eventually move to all-grain.

Zuljin said:

, a battery powered trailer hitch demagnetizer,

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Sorry for the off topic, but a what and what is it normally used for and what does it get used for in brewing?

I'm a PM brewer, with the occasional extract batch thrown in here and there. I mash more often than not, but I'll brew an extract batch if I don't have the time, or if the recipe I'm brewing is an extract one (I have a few that I haven't converted). I enjoy both methods, and I can produce amazing beers either way.

I'd like to try AG, but space is my main issue. I can't store buckets of grain, along with a grain mill, larger mash tun, etc.

Plus the extra time spent brewing would probably piss off my SWMBO. Gotta keep her happy, right?

Well I did not RUSH.... I just started doing full grain in the last year... and I have been doing this 12 years... actually my first brewing was 20 years ago... but As peole do this for a while, have a bit more free time, they want to expand thier hobby....

What grains can you not use as an extract brewer? I've used everything from Victory to flaked maize, oats to wheat and stuff inbetween. As long as I account for sugar conversion with DME, won't I getc the same colors and flavors without mashing?

BronxBrew said:

this is the "extract part of the forum" no ? All grain has its own section i think. Why belittle extract brewers to think we have to go all grain or else ? seems kinda segregated if you ask me.

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Who was doing that? The OP asked why people do all-grain, so people are responding. Seems kosher.

BronxBrew said:

this is the "extract part of the forum" no ? All grain has its own section i think. Why belittle extract brewers to think we have to go all grain or else ? seems kinda segregated if you ask me.

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Who is belittling? You just said this site has a forum for both of them, that sounds pretty fair.

JohanMk1 said:

This kinda hit home tonight. I went to a local AG "club" meeting. I felt so "welcome" that I turned around and left before the meeting even started.

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It sucks when people are dicks but you did say it was a club designated for AG. Would you expect them to change the topic of conversation to extract just for you?

thughes said:

extract = cake made from a box of cake mix

AG = cake made from scratch

....both cakes can be delicious (or not), some folks just prefer to make their cake from scratch.

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I use this same analogy when I explain it to my friends except it is "take-n-bake" pizza vs. pizza you made from scratch.

@OP
Why do you care what other people are doing or saying? If you enjoy extract then keep doing it. I rarely hear people talk down on extract brewers but it sounds like you might be hanging out with the wrong crowd if that is what you hear.

I started my brewing career as an All-grain brewer, so I can give my opinion from the other side.

There's nothing wrong with extract. I've never ran into All-grain brewers that 'slam or belittle' extract brewing. I've seen a few lame comments made in passing here on HBT, but that's about it.

I started off with all-grain from the start because it seemed like more of a 'process'. I'm very good at math, and I have a high interest and aptitude for science. So I dove in head first. I also love DIY projects, so making a mash tun and a wort chiller were fun projects for me. From the start, this hobby was equally about the beer, and equally about making/building things.

With that said: The homebrewing community is extremely supportive of extract brewers. Jamil, Charlie, BYO, Zymergy, etc typically write their recipes in extract, rather than all-grain (all-grain being the addendum). Most LHBS have plenty of fresh LME and DME on hand, and are usually more than helpful to assist the extract brewer with brewing their desired beer style. I don't need to go into the benefits of all-grain brewing, as they have already been posted above. I personally feel, that because there are 'known' benefits to all-grain, extract brewers inherently feel they are using an inferior method, or making than inferior product.

This may or may not be the case, but I don't think there is anyone shoving that notion down their throat; I think it's a self-assumption. Now because of this assumption, I see extract brewers try to justify, quantify, and reinforce the validity of extract brewing, when it's simply not needed. Brewing is brewing and beer is beer. If you are spending so much time trying to defend extract brewing, maybe you should think about why this bothers you.

In my opinion, it comes down to two things:

A. Keep brewing with extract. You're probably making great beer. You don't need to defend your brewing method because to be honest, I don't see anyone 'actually' attacking it.

B. Switch to all-grain. Because if you're taking the time to write a lengthy post, and then adamently defend your position in subsequent posts, there's some feeling of inferiority there. I don't see that going away, no matter how many people pat you on the back.

Ultimately, it's your call, but there's no one here on HBT pointing fingers and calling you "The weird kid no one wants to play with" because you're an extract brewer.

BronxBrew said:

Dont get me wrong. the guys who all grain or partial have the space and time. also i would go on record and say this is more of a past time than hobby. the thing is once brew day is over you are waiting for weeks on end to bottle. thats lots of down time. bottling happens then again down time to condition. don't get me wrong i have a pipe line going where I'm always doing something. Im a beer drinker.

if the extract brews can win countless awards vs all grain. why is there so much effort to push people to all grain ? why is there a push ? is it really better or does it give something to do ?

going on the fact there is 90% of home brewers doing extract. why isn't more HBSS "home brew supply stores" offering more verity for extract brewers ?

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I'd like to know where you get the fact that extract brewers are winning countless awards against all grain. Is there a list of competitions winners and their brewing style that we can all see?

Also, I am suspicious of the 90% extract brewers number. I'm sure that there are a lot of brewers starting out who use extract, but I'd guess that many of them do a few batches and then drop the hoppy. Like anything else, some people are not going to stick with it.

I can't say why stores don't offer more. I'm not sure what more there is to supply though either.

With AG you can have greater control over the mashing and they beer in general. With extract you are somewhat at the mercy of the extract company for certain things, most importantly the attenuation of the wort.

Also now that for MANY years there was a VERY limited amount of extract options available to most people. I think a lot of old time brewers went to AG for this reason.

I switched to AG for a few reasons, but one of them was cost. If you compared the cost of extract to grain, you'd see what I mean. I often think about brewing extract in the winter where the stove inside the house seems like a wonderful option. Then I price the batch with extract...

Most of all for me was the desire to go deeper into the hobby; to more fully understand the brewing process and have more control over certain aspects. I love the DIY factor and have built my own grain mill, Mash Tun, etc.

I refute that going AG is costly or difficult. I've seen many posts from people who have done their first AG batch and exclaimed how easy it really ended up being. And the cost is simply a paint strainer bag for BIAB method. You don't even need a larger burner since you can simply scale down the recipe or make a concentrated wort and top off if you really wish to.

Finally, I don't see a sudden rush to switch to AG as you claim. Lots of people switch, but lots of people stay. I think there may be more AG brewer now than ever, but mostly because of a better understanding of methods like BIAB and No Chill which take some of the equipment cost out of the equation.

There are many considerations on what will help make a great beer than extract vs AG. Yeast Health, pitching rate, ferm temp, O2 levels, etc. are all much more important IMO than whether you use extract or mash grains to get the wort.

IMO if you aren't doing all of those things right, then switching to AG is a waste of effort.

How bout this one. Brewing with extract is like driving a boxster. It'll do the job but you'll always know it's not a 911.

Before the hating starts, that's a joke and I enjoy ruffling feathers. Nothing wring with extract.

And to go along with the support, even all the can you brew it episodes give the recipe in extract and all grain.

Holy crap! Did I post all that???

I made the switch to BIAB AG because I wanted to have more control and well more challenge. I made good beer with extract. I am bottling my first AG beer tomorrow so I won't comment that I make good beer with AG.
A good brewing buddy of mine has been doing extract brewing for 20+ years and has no interest in changing that. He makes some great beer, so long as he doesn't freeze the keg.

Kinda funny off topic though I have never had a dumper beer before, till my last extract brew. I am giving it a few more weeks to get better but I am not holding high hopes. Thinking the garden will enjoy 48 vanilla porters pored out onto it. Actually with how bad it is, the beer might kill the plants.

This discussion will go on until the end of time.

There's a line of advice out there that always makes me cringe, has no meaning and is a complete cop out. But alas! in this discussion I have found a use for it:
"Do what works for you" and don't worry about the rest. Have enough pride in your craft to not put up with anything less. Your time, your process, your beer. "bout all there is to it.

I'm still a little unclear as to where the OP is getting his/her information, and why the tone of the post was so negative. I'm going to cut him some slack and assume he had a bad experience with an all-grain brewer when discussing extract.

Personally, no one "pushed" me into all-grain. It was my goal from the beginning. The reasons were many of those already listed, and specifically:

-Fun
-Control
-Cost
-Science!
-Legos made me do it
-Etc.

And, the guys and gals at my local homebrew shop (Siciliano's, yea!) never once belittled me for buying Blue Moon at the ripe age of 21 and asking for more suggestions like it, as I loved it. I still talk to them on a regular basis and credit them for peaking my curiosity and even helping me decide what was completely necessary when setting up my all-grain equipment.

H-ost said:

It sucks when people are dicks but you did say it was a club designated for AG. Would you expect them to change the topic of conversation to extract just for you?

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First I went to learn about AG.

Second, as an outsider I was made to feel unwelcome and left.

HawksBrewer said:

+1 to everything said above. Almost thought someone was trolling when I read the OP. More control and cheaper batches was a no-brainer for me. Average extract batches before cost me $40-60. With AG I have brewed 5 gal batches as cheap as $10.

Most importantly, my beer GOT BETTER when I switched to AG. That's really all that mattered to me.

Oh, and for the most part BJCP judges are usually, well, never mind.

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$10 is very low. If you paid $2.50 for yeast and $1.00 for an ounce of hops, I could see you brewing for $10. But I can easily spend $6-$8 on hops for a single recipe (that might not even be an IPA).

ludomonster said:

$10 is very low. If you paid $2.50 for yeast and $1.00 for an ounce of hops, I could see you brewing for $10. But I can easily spend $6-$8 on hops for a single recipe (that might not even be an IPA).

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Reuse yeast, bulk grain and bulk hops, and I can brew some styles for under $5.

JohanMk1 said:

First I went to learn about AG.

Second, as an outsider I was made to feel unwelcome and left.

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I've never been to a club but in my experience at my homebrew shops everyone is more than willing to help anyone at any level of experience.

How did you approach them? Did you tell them that you were interested in learning about AG? I would be really surprised that they would not be perfectly willing to give advice.

JohanMk1 said:

First I went to learn about AG.

Second, as an outsider I was made to feel unwelcome and left.

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I'm going with one of two hypothesis:

1. They are jerks to everyone who isn't part of the group, regardless of what kind of brewing you do.

2. The feeling was unintended and simply a misunderstanding. (In other words, it's in your head.)

I HIGHLY doubt that they tried to ostracize you simply because you make beer using extract. It's possible, but one of the above points is far more likely.

I like Good Beer no matter how it is made

ludomonster said:

$10 is very low. If you paid $2.50 for yeast and $1.00 for an ounce of hops, I could see you brewing for $10. But I can easily spend $6-$8 on hops for a single recipe (that might not even be an IPA).

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$10 is low. Most of my batches run $15-20.

I can easily do a $10 batch for a fairly light summer beer. Those that need lots specialty grain and hops run into the $15-20 range if I don't reuse yeast or harvest from bottles of Bells beer.

JohanMk1 said:

Sorry for the off topic, but a what and what is it normally used for and what does it get used for in brewing?

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Making that list reminded me of Weird Al Yankovic - Hardware Store. It's in the song.

damn, I'd LOVE to do my brewing in $15 batches (ish)... right now I can do Hefe's for like $26 extract style (re-using yeast). if I can get bulk DME I could see myself doing that but I don't have a stove powerful enough to do a full grain boil or an immersion chiller to chill THAT much wort (now I do the 3 gallon boil 2 gallon ice cold water to drop the temps faster. )

I do all grain for flexibility and variety. I think you will find most of the "Oh, I want to make that!" recipies (especially here) will be all grain. Yes, it's cheaper, too; I can do a fairly light, simple beer for around 20 bucks or so. I do, however, still like extract for time savings. In preparation for a recent party, I made 3 all grain batches, and 2 extract. What I loved about the extract ones were less time spent ( I could brew 2 in the time I did 1 all grain!), and easier clean up, just one pot with no mash tun to clean. I wanted to showcase to people what was possible with all grain, but also what was possible with a simple Northern Brewer kit. Mostly, I wanted to interest people in brewing, and get them addicted.....I mean interested...... In the end, do what works for you. If you enjoy your product, and mostly, have fun doing it, then it's the right thing to do. Enjoy!

I couldnt find a Poll for this, so I started one...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/poll-what-method-do-you-brew-344339/

Use the 80/20 rule. What do you do MOST of the time...

davekippen said:

I couldnt find a Poll for this, so I started one...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/poll-what-method-do-you-brew-344339/

Use the 80/20 rule. What do you do MOST of the time...

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Again, people are completely missing the point. The masses of casual "homebrewers" sticking with Mr. Beer and other prehopped kits (eg Coopers) are NOT going to be well-represented on this site. A poll on HBT is NOT going to dispel the 90% figure.

And this is also largely why the 90% figure probably seems so ridiculous to people. They're used to homebrew clubs, sites like HBT, etc, and see that as a microcosm of the homebrewing community. What that neglects to take into account is that the "casual" brewers mentioned above generally don't seek out such communities. Like it or not, in terms of actual PEOPLE, homebrewers like us are the *minority*. So a poll on HBT will reflect a MASSIVE bias... If one is setting out to get a meaningful idea of the wider homebrewing community in general, the methodology could hardly be any poorer.

rifraf said:

What grains can you not use as an extract brewer? I've used everything from Victory to flaked maize, oats to wheat and stuff inbetween. As long as I account for sugar conversion with DME, won't I getc the same colors and flavors without mashing?

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No, not really. I think you'll get flavor and color from victory malt, but not oats. With some grains, when you steep them, you'll just get starch.

But the tricky part is that some malts (like wheat) can self-convert so if you hold them in a prescribed amount of water for a prescribed amount of time at a certain temperature, you'll get conversion. So in reality, anything like Munich malt or wheat malt would be a partial mash if certain steps were followed.

There's definitely some styles that just can't be done properly with the extracts currently on the market, even with steeping.

emjay said:

There's definitely some styles that just can't be done properly with the extracts currently on the market, even with steeping.

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Thats really what my post was pointing at. It wasn't meant as a dig to AG or PM brewers. Its nice to see some "PRO" kits in extract form.

Was hanging out at my LHBS the other day. It seemed like almost everyone who came in that bought a brew kit. It was always extract. I expected this because of NYC. I wonder what the numbers are for the big 3 ? Northern ,Austin and Midwest ?

The AG process allows you to alter recipes without changing ingredients. You are able to unlock the full potential of the grains tapping into a broader range & depth of flavor. It's not just about creating award winning beers, it's also about creating the beer in your imagination. Sometimes just using extract won't get you there. Lastly, AG is a more involved process and therefore provides a more interesting journey for many brewers. Personally I utilize extract, partial & AG mthods depending on what I am trying to achieve.