Guidance in going a little electric hybrid...

SSBrew - 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Beavdowg

Beavdowg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
404
Reaction score
9
Location
Portland, OR
One of the things that annoys me when brewing is the inexact dance of trying to get my strike and sparge water temps spot on. Since it all starts here I feel this is a pretty important step to nail. So what I'd like to build to simplify this step in brewing is a HLT that is electrically heated. I have a converted sanke that I could use to modify/convert to a heated HLT. I have absolutely no experience in this type of thing and not really any knowledge of electricity so I'm looking for some guidance, maybe some directions to follow so that I can build a HLT that is heated with an element that is controlled with a temp controller so that I can simply dial in, say 168*F, and my water in my HLT will be heated and held to 168*F, or obviously whatever temperature I desire. This seems like it would be pretty simple, just a matter of installing an element into the HLT and wiring in the Johnson digital controller. Is it this easy? If so, would some of you mind sharing some pictures of a similar setup and/or sharing some specific directions?

thanks :mug:
 
I did the exact same thing about a year ago. IMO the hlt is the heart of my brewery. I can not remember nor would I care to brewing without it. I maxed my available power with a 4500w element. Go as big as you can. I will post some pics of mine when I get to a real computer.
 
This came up in another thread yesterday I think.. using a Johnson controller is going to limit the size of heating element you can use by quite a bit. It's rated to 16A @ 120VAC (or 8A at 240VAC) - so you're stuck with a 1500W or therebouts. A PID + SSR is fairly cheap, but wiring it up can be a little bit intimidating - but would give you freedom to configure your own system around whatever requirements you want.
 
bruin_ale said:
This came up in another thread yesterday I think.. using a Johnson controller is going to limit the size of heating element you can use by quite a bit. It's rated to 16A @ 120VAC (or 8A at 240VAC) - so you're stuck with a 1500W or therebouts. A PID + SSR is fairly cheap, but wiring it up can be a little bit intimidating - but would give you freedom to configure your own system around whatever requirements you want.
Click to expand...

If you already have a johnson or ranco, you can use it to drive an SSR, and have the SSR handle the big load. Saves you having to buy a PID, though the PID *is* a slightly better choice (and cheaper than a ranco/johnson).
 
Beavdowg said:
One of the things that annoys me when brewing is the inexact dance of trying to get my strike and sparge water temps spot on. Since it all starts here I feel this is a pretty important step to nail. So what I'd like to build to simplify this step in brewing is a HLT that is electrically heated. I have a converted sanke that I could use to modify/convert to a heated HLT. I have absolutely no experience in this type of thing and not really any knowledge of electricity so I'm looking for some guidance, maybe some directions to follow so that I can build a HLT that is heated with an element that is controlled with a temp controller so that I can simply dial in, say 168*F, and my water in my HLT will be heated and held to 168*F, or obviously whatever temperature I desire. This seems like it would be pretty simple, just a matter of installing an element into the HLT and wiring in the Johnson digital controller. Is it this easy? If so, would some of you mind sharing some pictures of a similar setup and/or sharing some specific directions?

thanks :mug:
Click to expand...

There are a TON of schematics for this kind of thing floating around on here, but the available power source controls a lot of things.

If you are using 120v, you are limited to 1500W or 2000W (depending on if you have a 15A or 20A breaker in your electrical panel), and that will take a while to heat water up.

But, you can always do the heavy lifting with your kettle and then put the water in the HLT when it's close to where you want and have the HLT then finish the heating and do the maintaining.
 
lschiavo said:
I maxed my available power with a 4500w element. Go as big as you can.
Click to expand...
For what it's worth, I use a 3000W heater. Not enough for your boil, but for an HLT that you can keep a lid on, it's fast enough. And it runs on a 240V, 20 amp breaker from an existing wall outlet installed for a window air conditioner.
 
Thanks for all the responses. Some pictures would be helpful. The wiring diagrams unfortunately don't help me much as I'm not trained in reading them. Question; what is an SSR? I would only be using this to heat water in the HLT, NOT for boil. I just want a way that I can be more exact on my temps, and save some propane too. How fast does a 3000W heater heat water up?
 
SSR = Solid State Relay.

It's basically a switch with no moving parts. Big old chunk of silicone. They are generally controlled by a low voltage signal. When that signal says "GO", the SSR allows another (usually higher) voltage source to pass through it and power up something on the other side.

No moving parts = nothing to wear out after lots of on/off switching, unlike a mechanical relay which has moving parts and click-clacks back and forth as it switches things on and off.

As for saving your propane...

If you are limited to 120v for the electric stuff, you are going to be forced to use a pretty low wattage element. It will take a looooooong time to heat up your strike/sparge water. If you don't feel like waiting for an hour or more for water to heat up, you'll probably end up heating the water with propane and just maintaining it with electric, which means you won't really save on the propane.

Do you currently own any kind of temp controller that you are trying to make use of, or are you starting from scratch here?

Do you have 240v available to use, or are you going to be using 120v?

If 120v, do you have two separate circuits (outlets powered by separate breakers) to use, or just one circuit?
 
Walker said:
SSR = Solid State Relay.

It's basically a switch with no moving parts. Big old chunk of silicone. They are generally controlled by a low voltage signal. When that signal says "GO", the SSR allows another (usually higher) voltage source to pass through it and power up something on the other side.

No moving parts = nothing to wear out after lots of on/off switching, unlike a mechanical relay which has moving parts and click-clacks back and forth as it switches things on and off.

As for saving your propane...

If you are limited to 120v for the electric stuff, you are going to be forced to use a pretty low wattage element. It will take a looooooong time to heat up your strike/sparge water. If you don't feel like waiting for an hour or more for water to heat up, you'll probably end up heating the water with propane and just maintaining it with electric, which means you won't really save on the propane.

Do you currently own any kind of temp controller that you are trying to make use of, or are you starting from scratch here? Yes, I use a Johnson digital controller for my keezer.

Do you have 240v available to use, or are you going to be using 120v?I don't know the answer to that. How would I figure that out?

If 120v, do you have two separate circuits (outlets powered by separate breakers) to use, or just one circuit?
Click to expand...
Again, I don't know the answer to that either.
 
Beavdowg said:
Again, I don't know the answer to that either.
Click to expand...

220v outlets are "weird" looking. A standard outlet in your house is 110V. 220V could look different depending on exactly what kind of receptacle it is, but look at where your dryer or stove (if electric) is plugged in. Those are 220v outlets.
 
I would only be using this to heat water in the HLT, NOT for boil. I just want a way that I can be more exact on my temps, and save some propane too.


OK this is the best advice you are going to get today. What ever you end up doing PLAN on using this new set up for your brew kettle. Maybe you have to invest a couple extra bucks to do that but its well worth it.

We brew with just one brew kettle and use buckets for the mash and HLT. To get your sparge water just right you can over shoot the temp and poor in cold water to get the exact temp you want.
 
AnOldUR said:
For what it's worth, I use a 3000W heater. Not enough for your boil,.....
Click to expand...
How much are you boiling? I use a 1500w for the HLT/HEX and 2000w for the BK for 5gal batches (6.25g pre-boil). It rocks and the best part, no 240V to deal with..... Although, I probably will upgrade to 220 soon ;)
 
McCuckerson said:
How much are you boiling? I use a 1500w for the HLT/HEX and 2000w for the BK for 5gal batches (6.25g pre-boil). It rocks and the best part, no 240V to deal with..... Although, I probably will upgrade to 220 soon ;)
Click to expand...

With decent insulation, 2000W should boil a 5 gallon batch, but it takes a while to heat stuff up (upwards of 20 minutes to get mash runnings up to a boil.)

Lots of guys with the heatsticks use two 2000W sticks to get the boil started and then maintain with a single 2000W stick.
 
Another thing to consider is a Brutus 20 style system. In this case, you have one kettle and one mash tun. My mash tun is a cooler. You heat the strike water in your Kettle to get it near strike temp a bit, then recirculate thru your RIMS tube and cooler. A PID and SSR control the temps. Once you dough in, you keep recirculating so the RIMS keeps mash temp very precise.

This way you get precise control of your mash, not just control of your HLT.

The other thing to do is to read the electrical primer (if you haven't already). It's a sticky on this section and can help explain 120v vs 220, etc.

I brew 10 gallon batches. I started with three 2000 watt heat sticks. Now I will be using one element mounted on the kettle and a heat stick. Both just use switched gfci outlets. 4000watts is enough power to boil 12.5 gallons nicely and does well heating strike water, though I've never timed it. Before my third heat stick died I would sometimes use it to quicken the process of heating strike water.

If you're just heating strike water, maybe consider RIMS tube with a 2000 watt element.

I'll save you some time by telling you why I didn't go 220v. I couldn't find any 220v gfci outlets. So unless you already have one or plan to install a new double pole gfci breaker in your electrical panel, you can't get it done that way.

Correct me if I'm wrong, honestly, I never went to an electrical supply store.
 
Dgonza9 said:
If you're just heating strike water, maybe consider RIMS tube with a 2000 watt element.
Click to expand...
That's an awefully expensive solution to this problem. This guy just wants to heat water to a set temp, and you've got him building a big metal tube and pumping liquid through it now. :D

Dgonza9 said:
I'll save you some time by telling you why I didn't go 220v. I couldn't find any 220v gfci outlets. So unless you already have one or plan to install a new double pole gfci breaker in your electrical panel, you can't get it done that way.

Correct me if I'm wrong, honestly, I never went to an electrical supply store.
Click to expand...
You can't get 240v outlets with GFI, but you can get 240v power cords that have GFI built into them.
 
What's the difference between a "heat stick" and an "element"?

Dgonza9, yeah I don't want to put all the money and time into building some complex brewing system. I just want to be able to heat up my strike and sparge water more accurately. I don't want to have to build some Star Trekky control board. If possible, I just want to buy another 2-stage temp controller and adapt one of my keggles for an element or heat stick (whichever is best) so can can heat up some water to the perfect temp and drain into my cooler MLT. Well, truth be told I eventually would like to graduate to a SS MLT. I'm still not completely sold on the safety of 150*F-180*F water in a plastic cooler.

thanks for the suggestions though. This is all how we learn.:mug:
 
Beavdowg said:
What's the difference between a "heat stick" and an "element"?
Click to expand...

A heat stick is a sealed up piece of pipe with a heater element mounted to it. You stick it down into the kettle rather than mounting an element directly in the kettle.

Dgonza9 just started a thread a couple days ago for feedback on the sticks vs the direct mounting, if you want to read over it.


Beavdowg said:
I'm still not completely sold on the safety of 150*F-180*F water in a plastic cooler.
Click to expand...

If you are not sold on the safety of the hot water in a plastic cooler, then I doubt you will be sold on the safety of a heatstick. :D
 
Would someone mind laying out for me what kind of costs I might incure to modify a sanke keg into an electrically heated HLT?
 
I am helping someone walk through this here in my neighborhood. You can do it for under $150. Note that this was 120V, so not something super powerful.

PID: $22 (ebay)
25A SSR: $6 (ebay)
Liquid Tight Thermocouple: $25 (ebay - solid thermowell design)
Heater Element: $10 (local hardware)
Extension cord: $15 (local hardware)
Power switch: $4 (local hardware)
Weldless Heater element install kit: $10 ($15 w/ shipping - weldlessfittings.com)
enclosure: $15 (local hardware)
Misc wires: $10

That comes to about $125 right there.
 
Walker said:
I am helping someone walk through this here in my neighborhood. You can do it for under $150. Note that this was 120V, so not something super powerful.

PID: $22 (ebay)
25A SSR: $6 (ebay)
Liquid Tight Thermocouple: $25 (ebay - solid thermowell design)
Heater Element: $10 (local hardware)
Extension cord: $15 (local hardware)
Power switch: $4 (local hardware)
Weldless Heater element install kit: $10 ($15 w/ shipping - weldlessfittings.com)
enclosure: $15 (local hardware)
Misc wires: $10

That comes to about $125 right there.
Click to expand...

There will be other misc costs depending on exactly how you want to do things. Like: you can have a receptacle on the box and a cord to the kettle, or you can have a female cord coming out of the box and a short pigtail on the kettle.

Probably a wash on cost either way, but different items to buy.

It would end up near $150 when all was said and done.

If you already have some temp controller that can be re-used, then obviously some of these items (PID + temp probe) can be removed from the list. Maybe even the SSR, depending on how much power you put in the kettle and how many amps the controller you have can handle by itself.
 
AnOldUR said:
Yeah, you're right. Could boil in there, but I only use it as an HLT. It's a 15 gallon uninsulated stainless pot. Been doing 8 gallon batches, so I start with 12 or more gallons in there, just to be safe.
Click to expand...

Gotcha! That actually sounds like a good size element for those volumes. I'm cheap, I want to go 220 in the worst way but that darn 30amp GFI that costs $150..........
 
Wow, Walker, I had no idea it would be even that much outside of the temp controller. Those digital johnson controllers are $60-$80 if I remember correctly. I thought I could just plug the element into a Johnson controller and call it good. In reading around the site, though, I now understand that the controllers have a limit to how much amperage they can handle. Am I right on that? Since I don't understand electrical diagrams do you have some pics of different stages of assembly of something like this?

Thanks for all your advice and guidance!
 
McCuckerson said:
Gotcha! That actually sounds like a good size element for those volumes. I'm cheap, I want to go 220 in the worst way but that darn 30amp GFI that costs $150..........
Click to expand...

Check e-bay. I found a brand-new-in-the-box 50A GFI breaker for $35 shipped when I was building my system. HUGE savings.

Beavdowg said:
I now understand that the controllers have a limit to how much amperage they can handle. Am I right on that?
Click to expand...
That's right. You have to be careful about and amp rating on the controller. For 1500W, you need 12.5A. For 2000W, you need 16.6A.

Beavdowg said:
Since I don't understand electrical diagrams do you have some pics of different stages of assembly of something like this?
Click to expand...

it is possible to draw diagrams that are easy to understand. Will post example later.
 
I don't see why one would go to all that trouble and expense just to heat water in the HLT so precisely. You could still be off your temp when you dough in.

While I'm not trying to push the idea of the RIMS tube, it would cost you $50 more and your problem would be more than solved. I mean, you can read the temp digitally from your RIMS tube probe while you heat strike water. Once you dough in, you're done. The PID maintains the mash, which seems the important part, not the strike water.

Just my opinion here, but if you're going to the trouble of installing an element and wiring up a pid and controller, a RIMS tube will do all that and more. All you are really adding to your project is screwing together two stainless tees and a stainless pipe nipple with a few bushings. :D
 
Dgonza9, I appreciate your opinion. Only problem is that I don't think I completely understand how a RIMS system works. Could you dummy it down for me?

thanks
 
Beavdowg said:
Dgonza9, I appreciate your opinion. Only problem is that I don't think I completely understand how a RIMS system works. Could you dummy it down for me?

thanks
Click to expand...

RIMS = Recirculating Infusion Mash.

Basically, you recirculate during the mash. The recirculation flows from your mash tun to your pump, then into a stainless steel tube with two tees on each end. In one tee you screw in an element. In the other, you screw in a temperature probe. Then you route the flow back to your mash tun.

The element and probe are wired to a PID and SSR that drives the element. You just program in your set temperature and the PID figures out how to fire your element in short bursts so that you won't overshoot the temperature. You recirculate during the mash and the PID maintains the temperature.

Here's a shot of one of my mashes. On top is the actual temp. Below my set value. The PID kept my mash at nearly the exact temperature the entire time.:D
cc985ad7.jpg


Here's a shot of the RIMS Tube. The copper pipe is just part of hard plumbing that goes from my mash tun. Nothing to do with the tube.

d7592ebc.jpg


3738c0ce.jpg

Here's a shot of the control panel. I wired my pump and ventilation fan to it as well, but you don't have to.

2b5ec028.jpg


Here's a parts list.
RIMS-1.jpg


Do a search for "RIMS for DUMMIES" and you'll have some fun reading.

I think that wiring up a PID, SSR, and making holes for your control panel, etc. can be pretty time consuming and even challenging. It took a lot more time than I imagined it would. So it isn't exactly a quick project. But if you are looking to precisely control your mash temp, it's a great way to go. The only difference is where you mount your element and probe, in a tube rather than in your keggle.


It has a mighty advantage over a johnson controller that just turns off when it reaches a temperature. That will likely overshoot. The PID will figure out how to fire the element in short little bursts so it hits your mash temp dead on and then keeps it there. It's pretty cool. May not be what you are looking for, though.

Cheers. :mug:
 

Similar threads

BugAC
Going Electric for a vessel, but which one?
Replies
7
Views
1K
doug293cz
doug293cz
brewskitom
3V eBrewing Plumbing Advice
Replies
2
Views
701
rjbergen
R
WesBrew
How to downsize E-three vessel system
Replies
25
Views
3K
WesBrew
WesBrew
SimplyBeginning
For Sale 20-gallon Spike+ Electric Brew System (HERMS)
Replies
3
Views
969
Dusty Bottoms
D
X
For Sale 10 Gallon Electric Brewery - Portland OR
Replies
1
Views
742
xipetotec
X
Brewer's Friend 300

Latest posts

Back
Top