Cereal Mash Explained??

Can someone give me a good guide to Cereal Mashing? I want to try a clone brew that includes some unmalted grains. I've tried googling and searching here but what I'm getting is "try a cereal mash" or "you don't need a cereal mash". Nothing really explaining it step by step.

From BYO:

"In a cereal mash you begin by heating a mash of your adjunct and small amount of your 6-row malt to 158–160 °F (70–71 °C) and holding there for about 5 minutes. Then you heat the mixture to a boil, boil for 30 minutes, and return the cereal mash to the main mash. The bulk of your barley malt can be mashed in at 122 °F (50 °C), then heated to 140 °F
(60 °C). When the boiled cereal mash is added to the main mash, the temperature moves into the saccharification range. Cereal mashing requires a nearly constant stirring of the mash. Using flaked maize is much simpler."

Thanks for that from BYO, but I'm still not 100% clear on everything.
Is there a ration of 6 row to adjunct grains? Do I replace the 2 row I would normally use with 6 row? I'd be using a cooler MLT, so would I had the "cereal mash" to my other grains on the MLT, then add hot enough water to get it the saccharification range?

Depending on the amount of adjuncts, a pound or two of 6-row should do it. If you don't hold the cereal mash in 150s for 20-30 minutes for full conversion make sure you have enough enzymes in the main mash to convert the starches.

will this process work for raw wheat as well?

blackwaterbrewer said:

will this process work for raw wheat as well?

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Works for all raw grain.

I'm still not sure when one needs to use it. Can someone explain? You don't have to do it with all oats right? Not flaked oats, yes? What if I used quick oats? With wheat? I have no clue what I'm doing when it comes to wheat.

I think you add them all right in the mash from what I understand and for the full mash. That is what I have been doing but what do I know, I have been doing all grain for less than one year now. I add shredded wheat cereal to my mash sometimes and it comes out great.

I've also been looking for a good explanation of how and why. Here's a pretty good one I found:
Cereal Mash at HopWild
The only thing I'd ignore is the "why you shouldn't bother" part. But that's just my nature. Anytime anyone says "just buy..." I try to figure out how to do it myself. I have a 50lb bag of raw barley, and a pound or so will be cereal mashed into my next beer. Hopefully it will improve the body. So I say go for it!

I, too, am a little confused. Why not cook the cereal, then just include 6-row in the main mash?

blackwaterbrewer said:

will this process work for raw wheat as well?

Click to expand...

I always do a cereal mash for my Witbier which is 50% raw wheat and a half pound of raw oats, it seems to get a lot more out of the grains. It's basically two separate step mashes that come together for the sacc rest.

Take all of your raw oats and about 10% of your malt and dough in at 122 for 15 min in a thick pot that you can direct heat. After that rest is complete raise to 150 for another 15 min, then raise it to a boil for 15 min being sure to stir as needed to keep from scorching. Now you add the boiled mash to the rest of the malt, bringing it up to your desired sacc rest, you may need to add water to adjust the temp or water ratio of the total mash. Now you can just treat it as you would any other mash.

Edit: Oh, traditionally the malt part of the mash is already resting at 122 when you add the boiled portion. You can do this if you find it necessary but I usually don't bother especially when such a large percentage of the total grist is being boiled, because then you would have to cool it down in order to hit your sacc temp.

There are a few things you need to consider when doing a brew using an adjunct or unmalted grain. What adjunct (starch) or unmalted grain are you wanting to use? How much of the grain bill is this adjunct or unmalted grain?

Different grain or cereal straches gell at different temperatures and the starch has to be gelled to breakdown in the mash. Barley, wheat and oat starches gel in the range of mashing temperatures (126 - 155 F) so they are easily gelled and broken down by malt amylases during mashing. Starch adjuncts like corn, rice and sorgum require precooking to at least 170 F to gel the starch before adding to the mash. This precooking is done with about 5% ground barley malt for the purpose of at least thinning slightly the cooked starch as it gels. The enzymes of this malt are denatured in the heating but at least they start the break down of the starch and thin the cooker mash slightly. 5% to me as a home brewer is a hand full of my ground malt and it can be 2 row not necessarily 6 row. Both have plenty of enzymes to do the job.

If your grain bill calls for a large amount of adjunct or unmalted grain then you need to cook a large volume of water with your adjunct so it is not too thick, assuming you need to do a cooker mash step separate from you main mash. This large volume could increase the temperature of your main mash beyond you target saccarification temperatures when you add it in. This could be tricky. When I have made adjunct brews in 5 gallon batch sizes, I cook about 1 lb of rice starch in about 1 1/2 - 2 gallons of water and then add this to my main mash of the same volume sitting at protein rest (122 F). This seems to work well in bringing my mash up to about 145 F when they are mixed. When cooking my adjunct mash, I watch the temperature and make sure the adjunct starch (rice in my case) reaches it gelatinization temperature of 170 F for at least 15 minutes. You can tell because it becomes extremely thick. Oh yea, I start with precooked rice which helps.

As far as flaked grains you buy at the brew supply, these grains are flaked at supposely high enough temperatures to gel the starch in question. So flaked corn is suppose to have the corn starch gelled in the process so you can add it directly to your mash. However, I have found this to be variable with the various grains and processors. I have switched to gelling my own adjuncts.

Does this help??

Dr Malt

what is the point of the boil after you gell the starches?
I am using corn grits and some corn meal, i figure i need to get them to about 172* to gell, according to Palmer, i just don't understand why they need to be boiled?

I have found boiling is not necessary. However, to insure you have gelled the starch, you need to hold the temperature above the gelatinization temperature fro at least 15 minutes or longer for larger volumes.

Dr Malt

can a batch be done with 100% raw barley?

No. Most of the barley needs to be malted as this sets the stage for the enzymes to convert the starch to sugar. No malting, no sugar. No sugar, no fermentation.

RM-MN said:

No. Most of the barley needs to be malted as this sets the stage for the enzymes to convert the starch to sugar. No malting, no sugar. No sugar, no fermentation.

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Never say never! One can almost always find a way!

One way is to buy some commericial amylase enzyme and rely on that for the conversion. It would work, but has its drawbacks. In malted barely there are several amylases used to get full conversion. You would be some conversion, but the efficiency would probably be low.

Another option would be to soak the seed for a couple hours and then drain. Now wait 24-48 hours and then proceed. You'd have to figure out some way to "crush" the wet grain. During this 24-48 hr time period, the grain will produce some enzymes to allow conversion. Conversion would be slow, and I would recommend a decoction mash to help break apart the starch in the severely undermodified malt. Barley is typically allowed to germinate for 5-7 days to maximize the amount of enzyme production and starch modification. Then it is dried and the rootlets removed

I presume based on your location that you have ready access to raw barley. Be aware though that feed barley and malting barely are different

my father in law is the ag extension agent for the county north of my county. He gave me 10 lbs 2 row and 10 lbs 6 row and I just looking for a way to use it up.

what style would you use it in?

If you want to mix it with malted grains, then any Belgian style would be a good choice.

If you want to experiment and use it alone, then I'd do a simple golden or brown ale, so you wouldn't be wasting a lot of hops or other ingredients if it doesn't turn out

word

So can I do this? How do I go about it? I need to use up some unmalted wheat.
OG: 1.050-1.060

55% Two Row
45% Unmalted Wheat

I already have a thread with the rest of the recipe that I started kind of wondering how to do it before I found this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/spring-summer-recipe-unmalted-wheat-308375/#post3834876

So, there is no need to do a cereal mash if we use wheat flour?