They are not his to sell unless he bought them from the brewery.
My search of kegs
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They are not his to sell unless he bought them from the brewery.
No, but you will go to hell.
Go rent a car and see if they let you keep it because you paid a deposit.
Stauffbier
Well-Known Member
Read my prior posts. NY law says that when a packaged product is sold, so is the package it comes in. I've researched and confirmed this through more than one source. The deposit is merely a civil arrangement agreed upon to offer incentive to return it. In NY, it is not a criminal act to keep a keg, PERIOD.
Well, when they start charging $150 on a keg deposit in NYS we will know why.
Can't disagree with this honestly. But I'd imagine keg theft isn't really a major issue, because otherwise high deposits would be the norm.
OK if you say so.
Around here the least deposit I know of is $100.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1956284...-beer-makers-feeling-tapped-out/#.UHm-k3S9KSM
http://www.scrap.org/ArticlesArchive/2008/January-February/keg_theft.htm
pohldogg
Well-Known Member
Your prior post noted that you asked a prosecutor and were told that you wouldn't be prosecuted. All that means is that in NY stealing a keg is not a prosecutable offense. The fact that the brewery could initiate a civil case against you means that it is indeed against the law. You can't sue somebody for not breaking the law. By paying the deposit and promising to return the keg you've entered into a legal contract to do so, and by keeping the keg you've broken the contract and have therefore stolen it.
Negative, I said it is not a crime. And your description of civil laws is not accurate by the way.
Look, argue all you want, but criminal matters vary from state to state and even between localities. Trust me, I know a thing or two about criminal law... BUT, to be sure, I still ran it by my friend and he assured me that the package is legally transferred with the product here in NY, so any deposit is merely a contractual (ie civil) arrangement and not criminally enforceable.
Look, argue all you want, but criminal matters vary from state to state and even between localities. Trust me, I know a thing or two about criminal law... BUT, to be sure, I still ran it by my friend and he assured me that the package is legally transferred with the product here in NY, so any deposit is merely a contractual (ie civil) arrangement and not criminally enforceable.
I haven't purchased a keg in a long time, but I'm pretty sure that they have raised the deposit here also. Next time I'm at my distributor ill ask.
pohldogg
Well-Known Member
And I stand by that as a homebrewer you know what a keg costs and that it's way more than the deposit and screwing a pro brewer like that makes you a d-bag. Where's the brewer's code.
That's your prerogative. I myself don't own and never have owned a single keg other than my cornies, so whatever. But the law is the law and spouting off about 'the brewers code' doesn't change that. I personally hold no allegiances to any breweries anyway.
In regards to your description of civil law, you couldn't be more wrong. Anyone can sue for anything, literally. I can file papers to sue you right now if I wanted to claiming emotional distress over this conversation. Civil law is nothing like criminal law. In most cases, signing a contract between two parties does not create a criminally enforceable situation.
Look, I understand people here get protective of breweries, I get that. But this just isn't stealing by definition. If you morally believe it is, fine, there's nothing wrong with your opinion. But it is not law.
pohldogg
Well-Known Member
I will concede all legal points since I'm not a lawyer and will obviously get legalesed under the table. But in all the pages of this thread nobody's made an argument that keeping a keg for the deposit price is somehow justified as decent human behavior. Legal doesn't mean right.
Its got nothing to do with "Protecting the breweries". Its a point of honor. That's all. Do what you want, but don't pi$$ on my head and tell me its raining.
This very well may be stealing where you guys come from, laws vary from state to state. I've never argued that point. I just can't fathom why some people get so worked up over the fact that this is not a crime everywhere. Breweries are businesses, nothing more. They want your money just like any other business. I don't subscribe to the mindset that "Vinny" is our buddy, "Sam" brews for the people, and Budweiser is the evil wizard high up on the forbidden mountain. That mind set is at play whenever you guys demonize someone for this, you can't deny that. Hell this guy didn't even do what I'm telling you is legal, he purchased them from a third party.
If you derive a personal sense of honor from allegiance to commercial breweries, that's commendable I suppose. I'm certainly not going to be insulted by that, especially when what we disagree on is perfectly legal where I come from. I'm also not a lawyer. I'm just not someone who accepts "because breweries are cool" as a reason to bash other people's choices.
If you derive a personal sense of honor from allegiance to commercial breweries, that's commendable I suppose. I'm certainly not going to be insulted by that, especially when what we disagree on is perfectly legal where I come from. I'm also not a lawyer. I'm just not someone who accepts "because breweries are cool" as a reason to bash other people's choices.
You sure do have a hangup about commercial breweries. I have in no way espoused any allegiance to anything other than keeping your word, and paying your way. The reason I don't steal, is not because "breweries are cool". To take your argument there, illustrates the weakness of it. The laws of NY, and your interpretation of them may, effectively, make keeping a keg on deposit non prosecutable. But not a legitimate purchase. I submit to you the articles previously submitted by Denny in a previous post. Any company must recover all of its costs to remain in business. This includes the loss or theft of property. Inflated prices are the result. Your allegiance is irrelevant to the point. When buying shoes, or building supplies, or stainless steel products, you are paying for the other guy who stole. He may be chuckling to himself, especially as he has others who excuse his behavior by calling it "Other peoples choice". In the long run we all pay. With higher prices, or diminished availability.
Furthermore, honor is not something you "derive a personal sense of ". But I suppose I would be wasting my time to explain that.
I know a thing or two about honor, but I'm certainly not going to cheapen my experiences because of your decision to apply the word to this situation. Especially since I've never broken this cardinal rule that you apparently live by.
cookstownbrewer
Active Member
As a former member of my countries military I find the use of the word "honor" in this case to be extremely uncomfortable.
BetterSense
Well-Known Member
If I buy a lead-acid car battery, and do not bring my old one back for the 'core charge', am I guilty of stealing?
Just wondering; I thought I understood theft but apparently it's more complicated than I thought...
Just wondering; I thought I understood theft but apparently it's more complicated than I thought...
Funny isnt it no matter where you go on the internet there are always a troll or 2 in every forum. Tell you what, you go first and I will meet you there.
+HopSpunge+
Well-Known Member
Jiminey crickets. The guy just bought a couple of old crappy used kegs. He did not kill an old lady.
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jeepinjeepin
Well-Known Member
BetterSense said:
Nope, that's the difference between a core charge and a deposit. But EPA regs are getting stiffer and because of it I think stores in my area can be audited and have to be able to show cores or recycling receipts for the number of new batteries sold.
kombat
Well-Known Member
Adultery is also perfectly legal. You can't go to jail for adultery. Doesn't make it OK though.
As others have pointed out, we all know it costs way more than $30 in materials and labor to create a Sanke keg. Thus, keeping it for the $30 deposit, while arguably legal in some jurisdictions (as opposed to adultery, which is legal everywhere), is morally wrong. It might not legally be theft, but morally it's theft. If you can do it and still sleep well at night, well, that's your call. But it says a lot about your character, IMHO.
dietz31684
Active Member
OP, I've heard that the brewers get sanke keg's back in all sorts of conditions. At some point they decide to scrap them because the valves get messed up or whatever and it isn't worth their time to fix/clean. Of course if you car just going to cut it open, then it will be much easier to clean, plus I'm guessing you can discard the broken parts (being part of the top).
Even small breweries have a portion of kegs a year that get to damaged to be worth the time to fix, and will sell them. So instead of maffia style craigslist deals, see if any brewery or distributor has some available for sale.
Even small breweries have a portion of kegs a year that get to damaged to be worth the time to fix, and will sell them. So instead of maffia style craigslist deals, see if any brewery or distributor has some available for sale.
That's enough. In my state, keeping a keg for the deposit IS considered theft. In some places, it might not be illegal. I know that in Michigan, it is illegal to keep a keg for the deposit.
I know people take milk crates that say, "Property of XXX Dairy" without qualms as well. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, but if someone chooses to do something like that, let's not talk about it on the internet!
I know people take milk crates that say, "Property of XXX Dairy" without qualms as well. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, but if someone chooses to do something like that, let's not talk about it on the internet!
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