Advice on buying equipment

I'm looking to buy some new equipment so that I can stop using the old, rather sketchy stuff that I've been using. I'm in the market for a new brewpot and a new 5 gallon carboy.

Since the beginning, I've been using stuff that I got from my grandparents, but it isn't meant for brewing. I have a pretty big lobster pot that is coated with enamel or something (I know aluminum pots and generally anything that's not stainless steel is a big no-no) and it's extremely unwieldy and starting to get kind of warped due to the fact that I'm assuming it wasn't meant to be heated at such high temps for more than the time it takes to boil lobsters.

Should I be looking for one with a multi-layered bottom? Riveted handles? Stainless steel? How many quarts for when I'm making 5 gallon batches (with no real plans to expand into bigger batches in the future)?

My carboy is either a 6 or 6.5 gallon glass jug that I spotted sitting in a dark corner of my grandparents' basement. It's certainly usable, but the bottom has always been questionable, since it has got some surface cracks that I certainly don't want spreading. I tested it with water before putting beer in it, and have brewed several batches with it so I know the innermost layers of glass are okay. My biggest problem with it however is that since I brew 5 gallon batches in a bigger carboy, the krausen foam doesn't come out of my blow off hose; it just sits on top then settles back in, and the foam crusties are an outrageous hassle to clean out when I'm done.

Seems that most carboys are more or less the same, but does anyone have any advice on brewing in glass vs things such as a "Better Bottle?" I've read up on why plastic isn't advisable for fermenters, but those were generally about buckets.

Sooo, to get to the point, I was looking for some advice on what to look for in buying. I'm not looking to spend a fortune, but I don't want to buy this stuff from my local brew shop, since I believe last time I checked, their stainless steel brewpots were about fifty bucks, and I just found ones online for about ten...

Advice?

Get the biggest brew-pot you can afford. You can do a 5-7 gallon boil in a 15-20 gallon pot, but not the reverse. At the very least you want to 8 gallon to do 5 gallon full-volume boil. As are boiling beer vs. boiling lobster...they boil at the same temp

Better bottles are also plastic, and have the same disadvantages as plastic buckets...although I think that whole oxygen permeability thing is a bunch of hooey. Buy some buckets or better bottles and save grandma's carboy for those time when you want to do some extended aging. Then you have more money to buy a bigger pot!

A 60 qt pot, stainless or aluminum, is great for 5 gallons and can do 10 if you are careful. Don't waste money on multilayer pots, but riveted handles are worth a few extra bucks.

Nothing says the foam has to come out. The only reason you use a blow-off tube is in case it does.

I've always used brewing buckets. I've never had a problem and they are easy to clean. I just don't trust big glass containers since a pitcher exploded in my face as a child. Lots of people love Better bottles, the plastic used in them is great for brewing. It comes down to personal choice, period.

As for the brewpot, when you say that I should get a 5-7 gallon pot, are you talking about actually boiling 5 gallons? Granted I haven't been doing this for very long, but all of the recipes that I've done only required boiling at most two gallons of wort to make a five gallon batch. I'm also concerned that if I buy a huge brewpot I'm going to have a hard time fitting it on the stovetop, since my lobster pot already overlaps onto other burners. Another concern is that if I have to do this process by myself that I may have trouble maneuvering the brewpot. The last batch I brewed was solo, since my brew buddy moved and everyone else kind of flaked out on me...

Also, the reason I want the foam to come out is because I've read that it's mostly composed of things that contribute to hangovers and the like. I'm sure that this is not a large effect, but I sure wouldn't mind getting rid of any and all hangover makings that I could.

Regarding the brew pot, it looks like you are brewing extract or partial mash recipes. If you plan to brew all grain, something between 10 and 15 gallon would be good, but if you stick with extract, a 5 gallon is enough.
Aluminum pots are good to use as long as you maintain the natural layer of oxide that develops after the first time you heat them.
For extract, I was using a stainless pot from target, 5 gallons. Now I use a bayou classic 62quarts, but it would not fit on my stove. I brew outside now. It is really up to you and what you need.

For the fermenter, buckets are really cheap and sturdy. I also have a couple of better bottle carboys when I need to make room for a new brew. For cleaning, a good soak of oxyclean is the best. You are not suppose to use a brush on plastic as it might damage it and make room for nasties.

So far all I've used is extract recipes, and as of now I don't have any particular plans to branch into using mash or malting my own, but I guess I'll shop around and see if it looks like a five gallon pot would be sufficient for my needs. Once I build up my bank account a bit more and if necessary, I have no problem buying a larger brewpot, but I don't want to be using an overly large pot for boiling a couple of gallons.

For brewing outside, what exactly are you using to boil? I've heard of people using a fire, but I won't try to fool myself into thinking that I've got anywhere near the knowledge to attempt something like that, and I don't have the means to do anything else.

As for brewing in a bucket, I know not to use a brush because of the nasties, but what should I use? I stopped using a bucket precisely because of that reason, and I feel guilty filling up a bucket all the way just to soak the inside walls. Perhaps putting something else such as another small bucket inside to raise the water level without filling it up all the way?

Also what kind of Oxiclean do you use? From just looking at their site, their products are mostly just laundry stuff. I've been using C-Brite to sanitize everything, but thinking of starting to use Star-San from the rave reviews I've read.

I use the store brand equivalent of oxyclean free, no odor/adjuncts.

If you do not want to fill-up a fermenter to clean it, do not get a better bottle. Just get fermenting buckets, and use a regular sponge+dish soap to clean it, and rinse well. Do NOT use the scratch pad side of the sponge.

Also, cleaning is different from sanitizing. One will not replace the other. Indeed starsan is a good sanitizer. I like iodophor as well, as it is cheap.

To brew outside, I use a propane burner.

I guess I'll have to reconsider using the buckets to brew in. I know for sure that it was easier to take hydrometer readings when I could just open up the bucket, rather than setting up the siphon to grab a few ounces of beer to measure.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

broadbill said:

Better bottles are also plastic, and have the same disadvantages as plastic buckets.

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This is incorrect. Better bottles are plastic, but they are made of a different type of plastic that is impermeable to oxygen. They've got all the advantages of glass in that regard, but they're much lighter and you don't have to risk huge catastrophe every time you move it.

regular old Oxi-Clean Free (unscented) does an amazing job of cleaning the gunk that gets stuck to the sides of the Carboy/Better Bottle. You don't even have to fill the carboy...you can just add 1/2 gallon of water and shake (with your hand over the opening). This is obviously another advantage of the Better Bottle, because it only weights ~1.5 lbs and you can easily shake it. Cleans up really quick.

As for pots, I opted against the multi-layered bottoms, because the purpose of those bottoms is to retain heat...which is exactly what you don't want when chilling your wort. The layered bottoms hold on to the heat and essentially re-heats your wort, making the chilling process take that much longer.

Size: if you have any aspirations of ever doing all-grain (and if you like home brewing, eventually you will want to try it), get the biggest pot you can afford. I would suggest 10 gallons minimum. I do 5.5 gallon batches, so when I boil 7-7.5 gallons, my 9 gallon pot is right on the edge of too small...I've never had a boil-over yet, but if the pot were a little bigger I wouldn't be so nervous during the hot break.

CrazedArmadillo said:

As for pots, I opted against the multi-layered bottoms, because the purpose of those bottoms is to retain heat...which is exactly what you don't want when chilling your wort. The layered bottoms hold on to the heat and essentially re-heats your wort, making the chilling process take that much longer.

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I disagree with this statement, the purpose of the multi-layered bottoms is to conduct heat so you get even heating (and minimize scorching) which is a good thing in brewing. SS is a poor heat conductor and a more conductive metal is sandwiched in between layers of SS to compensate. The thicker bottom adds marginally more thermal mass which would slightly reduce chilling speed but I'd bet a dollar to a donut that it's not significant enough to even measure. (1/2lb of copper compared to 6+ gallons of wort).

That said, I wouldn't spend a huge premium on a heavy bottom as long as you're careful managing your flame and don't add a lot of undissolved sugars that will caramelize/scorch on the bottom -but if I could get a nice clad bottomed 20G pot I'd take it over a thin one in a heartbeat!

-Werbi

I've been advised that you can chill it in the sink filled with ice water to speed the process up a bit. What have you heard about this?

This could somewhat negate the multi layer bottom in that regard

If it fits it will cool. CHEAP fermenters= 5gallon water bottles.... Lot of hype about them

Sounds good. I wasn't sure if dunking it in ice water was bad for the pot or not

CrazedArmadillo said:

This is incorrect. Better bottles are plastic, but they are made of a different type of plastic that is impermeable to oxygen. They've got all the advantages of glass in that regard, but they're much lighter and you don't have to risk huge catastrophe every time you move it.

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From what I've read PET (better bottles) is about 10x more resistant to oxygen compared to HDPE (buckets). The question then becomes, is this difference perceptible in homebrewing? Since so many people use HDPE buckets with no oxidation problems,my feeling is that the answer is "no".

I guess it comes down to how sure you want to be about keeping oxygen out of the beer, and how much you want to pay for that feature.

Personally, I like buckets because they have a bail handle and I can get into them to clean/santize them as well as tote stuff in them.

cayergeau said:

As for the brewpot, when you say that I should get a 5-7 gallon pot, are you talking about actually boiling 5 gallons? Granted I haven't been doing this for very long, but all of the recipes that I've done only required boiling at most two gallons of wort to make a five gallon batch. I'm also concerned that if I buy a huge brewpot I'm going to have a hard time fitting it on the stovetop, since my lobster pot already overlaps onto other burners. Another concern is that if I have to do this process by myself that I may have trouble maneuvering the brewpot. The last batch I brewed was solo, since my brew buddy moved and everyone else kind of flaked out on me...

Also, the reason I want the foam to come out is because I've read that it's mostly composed of things that contribute to hangovers and the like. I'm sure that this is not a large effect, but I sure wouldn't mind getting rid of any and all hangover makings that I could.

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A lot of the choice of equipment depends on your personal opinions, and what you can handle. I do full 6.5 gal boils in a cheap 7.5 gal SS brew pot. Fermcap-S makes boilovers a non-issue. I can handle it fine post-boil...but strictly in carrying it a short distance outside the garage for chilling, and lifting it to pour it into the fermenter. You may or may not be comfortable with this.

I use 7 gal. plastic buckets exclusively for fermentation. I fall into the camp of those who believe it is "hooey" that the food-grade plastics used in these buckets somehow leave toxic products in beer or ar significantly permeable to oxygen. You may come to a different opinion.

I brew strictly all-grain but try to keep everything otherwise as simple as possible. I mash in a converted Rubbermaid 10 gal. cooler, boil on a Bayou Classic SP-10 turkey fryer burner, and bottle in 9" longneck bottles. These things all work together quite well. Any time I'm contemplating a change, I always reflect on whether such change conforms to the KISS principle.

CrazedArmadillo said:

This is incorrect. Better bottles are plastic, but they are made of a different type of plastic that is impermeable to oxygen.

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sorry, but that is actually incorrect. all plastics are oxygen-permiable, and also hydroscopic, to various degrees. the only common materials that are impermiable are maufactured minerals (like glass, silicon, quartz) or solid metals (like stainless steel, aluminum).

cayergeau said:

I've been advised that you can chill it in the sink filled with ice water to speed the process up a bit. What have you heard about this?

This could somewhat negate the multi layer bottom in that regard

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Not advisable! Stainless and aluminum have different expansion/contraction rates. You risk separation of layers.

Which separation of layers are you talking about? Because I plan on buying a stainless steel pot before I do any more brewing.

cayergeau said:

Which separation of layers are you talking about? Because I plan on buying a stainless steel pot before I do any more brewing.

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You referenced multi-layer bottom pot (Tri-Clad bottom) Tri-Clad bottoms consist of a layer of aluminum sandwiched between stainless steel. The bottom of the pot has the potential of separating if taken from 200+ degrees to ice water.
Another concern is lifting 200+ degree wort up and carrying it... (1 gallon of wort weighs approximately 8lbs), not a maneuver I would deem safe.

cayergeau said:

My biggest problem with it however is that since I brew 5 gallon batches in a bigger carboy, the krausen foam doesn't come out of my blow off hose; it just sits on top then settles back in,

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No problem. It doesn't have to blow anything out. The purpose of a blow off hose is to just provide a super-sized version of an airlock to prevent air from getting in. There is no need or benefit to having things "blow off" during fermentation.

and the foam crusties are an outrageous hassle to clean out when I'm done.

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Nope, that's easy as pie to clean. Fill the carboy to the brim with clean water and dump in half a scoop of Oxyclean. Come back in 3 hours or so and the crud will pour right out when you dump out the water. Give it a good rinse with clean water, then sanitize next time you brew. Easy. In 6 years of brewing, and a couple hundred batches, I've used my carboy brush exactly twice. Both times because I was too impatient to let the Oxyclean do its thing.

Thanks for clarifying OneHoppyGuy. I've only done it in my pot once which is only a single layer. Do you happen to know if this is inadvisable for single layer stainless steel pots? That's what I'm planning on buying.

Also as far as filling up the carboy all the way, I hate to use that much water. I feel guilty filling it up just to dump it out a couple of hours later. I'm going to go back to using a plastic bucket for a bit since it's so much easier to clean. However I am going to search out some Oxiclean for cleaning, since I've heard nothing buy good things about it since I started brewing.

If you want to save water and have a better bottle you can build a carboy cleaner. All you need is 5 gallon bucket from lowes for a resevoir, a submersible pump, pvp pipe and cap (make sure the cap and pip fit inside the better bottle). Now you have an easy to use cleaner of everything carboy shaped. Just add enough water to run through the carboy and keep the pump at the proper water level, a little oxyclean and just let it run for 10 minutes. The added bonus is you can also hook a chiller up to this setup to provide quicker chilling times and you get to recirculate the water.

So I've been shopping around, and found this at Target. What's the consensus on whether this one would be good or not?

http://www.target.com/p/Chefmate-Stainless-Steel-20-Qt-Stock-Pot/-/A-12737461

Judging by the lid, that may very well be the exact pot that I currently use. Works great for partial boils up to about 3 gallons.

cayergeau said:

So I've been shopping around, and found this at Target. What's the consensus on whether this one would be good or not?

http://www.target.com/p/Chefmate-Stainless-Steel-20-Qt-Stock-Pot/-/A-12737461

Click to expand...

That doesn't look much heavier than this: http://www.biglots.com/browseItem/cookware-gadgets/4003

My first stove top 20qt was the 20qt version of the cheapo Big-Lots pot. It's pretty thin but does the job. I use it along with a smaller 3G to heat strike water in to save propane (until I get a 10-20G HLT someday). I never had scorching but was careful to fully dissolve extract the few times I brewed on the stove before moving to the driveway.

I wouldn't expect to get very high quality for under $100 and think you can do better than $50 for a 20qt if price is the driver.

Werbi said:

and think you can do better than $50 for a 20qt if price is the driver.

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True. $50 is close to enough to buy a turkey fryer kit, which would give you the option of boiling the full 5 gallons. The aluminum pots with those kits aren't super high quality, but they do hold water and allow it to boil, which is really all you need.

I have a cheapo Proctor-Silex 30 qt. SS pot from Cooking.com. Paid $40 delivered, on sale.....of course that was 4 years ago. But I do full boils, and under no circumstances would I go smaller than 30 qt.

cayergeau said:

So I've been shopping around, and found this at Target. What's the consensus on whether this one would be good or not?

http://www.target.com/p/Chefmate-Stainless-Steel-20-Qt-Stock-Pot/-/A-12737461

Click to expand...

This is the exact same pot I have been using for extract brewing. Very sturdy, thick bottom (with a sandwiched aluminum core). I do not use it for brewing anymore as I moved away from extract, but I still use it for anything requiring a big pot. A good buy.

cayergeau said:

Thanks for clarifying OneHoppyGuy. I've only done it in my pot once which is only a single layer. Do you happen to know if this is inadvisable for single layer stainless steel pots? That's what I'm planning on buying.

Also as far as filling up the carboy all the way, I hate to use that much water. I feel guilty filling it up just to dump it out a couple of hours later. I'm going to go back to using a plastic bucket for a bit since it's so much easier to clean. However I am going to search out some Oxiclean for cleaning, since I've heard nothing buy good things about it since I started brewing.

Click to expand...

Immersing a single layer Stainless pot might suffer two things:
1. warping
2. potential chromium separation (not that probable unless it's low quality stainless)

After using conicals, carboys (glass and plastic), corny kegs and buckets, I now use buckets.
Conicals require a lot of space
Carboys are a pain to handle, rack and clean
Buckets are cheap to replace, lightweight, easy to clean, have a spigot, spigot is high enough to leave trub behind and have a certain level of insulation to reduce rapid temperature swings.

I use corny kegs for secondary. (two week rack-off from bucket) beer remains in the keg from then on.

This is purely personal preference. Every option has its merits and cons.

Remember...Craig's list is your friend.

I use carboys and always move them using a brew hauler.

Also, I never, ever attempt to set a carboy down on cement. I always set it onto a piece of plywood, or, insulating foam.

Gammon N Beer said:

Also, I never, ever attempt to set a carboy down on cement. I always set it onto a piece of plywood, or, insulating foam.

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Hmm... I set carboys down on concrete all the time, it's one of my methods of temp control. That giant slab of concrete that makes up the basement floor works as a great heatsink. Any sort of insulator would defeat the purpose of setting all the way down on the floor when I have a perfectly good bench that it could sit on. I will admit that I'm very careful and extremely nervous every time I do it. I've read the horror stories about carboy shrapnel and what it can do.

And then there's the fact that the years are beginning to creep up on me. A few more years down the road and I'm sure my back will tell me that carrying full carboys around in my hands is one more activity that is no longer an option.... But for the moment I can still pull it off.

rico567 said:

I have a cheapo Proctor-Silex 30 qt. SS pot from Cooking.com. Paid $40 delivered, on sale.....of course that was 4 years ago. But I do full boils, and under no circumstances would I go smaller than 30 qt.

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do you do full boils because youre using all malt? or are you boiling that all for the malt extract? ive been doing malt extract because it's easier, and i've been only boiling about two gallons at most in my pot which is about 30 quarts

cayergeau said:

do you do full boils because youre using all malt? or are you boiling that all for the malt extract? ive been doing malt extract because it's easier, and i've been only boiling about two gallons at most in my pot which is about 30 quarts

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my malt extract brews got MUCH better doing a full boil than a partial.

dfess1 said:

my malt extract brews got MUCH better doing a full boil than a partial.

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so you boil the full five gallons? what does that change about the resulting wort/beer? and how long does that take to get it to a boil?

cayergeau said:

so you boil the full five gallons? what does that change about the resulting wort/beer? and how long does that take to get it to a boil?

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I haven't heard that a partial boil vs a full boil grants any taste difference. If it does my only guess as to why would be (assuming you're topping off with the same water you boil with) that your top off water wasn't boiled and you might get some flavors from the chlorine. That is also assuming that you use simple tap water like plenty of people do.

I do use the same water to top it off with that I use to boil. Hmmm, maybe something to consider later on once I'm not on a rather small stovetop.

H-ost said:

I haven't heard that a partial boil vs a full boil grants any taste difference. If it does my only guess as to why would be (assuming you're topping off with the same water you boil with) that your top off water wasn't boiled and you might get some flavors from the chlorine. That is also assuming that you use simple tap water like plenty of people do.

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Nah, that ain't it. The difference between partial boil and full boil is boiling the higher gravity wort of the former causes increased caramelization...

Cheers!

If you've ever had glass carboy break at your feet you'll never even consider using one again. I had 5 and sold the remaining 4 the next day after it happened to me. I went to BetterBottle and have had great results.

Amazon.com has great deals on brew kettles. I just picked up this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009JXYUA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It's solid - far more solid than the bargain SS 20 qt I had been using.

I also picked up a patio burner from them as well, also good price for that.

I've found that Target tends to be a bit overpriced for the stuff they offer. YMMV - I realize that I'm showing up to this thread pretty late.