Merits of Racking or Not Racking Cider

Unless you need the primary you don't need to rack cider. It can stay on the lees.

Apologies in advance but I'm going to throw an alternate opinion at you regarding racking.

A timely racking is one of the key steps in good cider making. I'd rack at a month regardless of clarity or fermenting and here is why. From what I've been taught and my experiences leaving a cider on it's lees is a really bad idea. You not only risk generating "off" flavors from the dead yeast and garbage at the bottom but you increase the chance of Malo-lactic Fermentation (MLF).

Some cider makers want a certain level of MLF for flavor and body and such, however when not properly administered it will eat up at all your acidity and leave you with an insipid cider. I personally try very hard not to mess around with MLF yet.

Rack! If your cider isn't clear rack anyway, clear with sparkaloid or whatever and rack again if you have to but just get it off the junk.

Apologies in advance but I'm going to throw an alternate opinion at you regarding racking.

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Never apologies for being wrong . Just kidding.
Its an opinion and there is more than one way to do this. Each has its good and bad points. My comment was an indication that is COULD stay where it was. I have seen people here that rack on a tight schedule and those that don't touch it till its time to bottle. Might be interesting to take a batch and split it and try both then compare in 6-9 months after its been bottled.

True enough and the original poster can take my advice or leave it. It is not like I have to drink this cider nor do I have anything to gain from even posting a response.

I've left it on it's lees too long for sure out of a lack of time and/or laziness, and I've had batches turn out good and bad. But I can tell you with out a doubt that I think racking is one of the key steps in flavor preservation.

Cider making is very ancient and less adding gatorade or whatever it is doubtful anyone will ever come up with something that hasn't been done before. That being said there are key steps that have been practiced and refined since the Romans (and before) cultivated orchards, picked and pressed their apples and made cider. Sulfites, blending, fermenting temperatures, racking, aging.

The racking step in the process is there for a reason. I doubt you'll find a wine maker or beer brewer willing to skip this same step for the very same reasons. Because it can "sometimes" turn out isn't good enough for me I want to know for sure it will be drinkable.

So I say Rack. Rack at about 4 weeks or so. Before if there isn't very much airlock activity left, longer if there is activity. I wouldn't go much past 5 or so weeks in any case. If it isn't clear yet, take proper measures and rack again. It is never easy to do things the right way.

oldtimeydave said:

<snip> It is never easy to do things the right way.

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Very true. The problem is those of us that are not yet fully versed in this art are often not sure who is right and who is not. In beer and wine most everyone agrees rack and often. In cider there seem to be equal numbers of experts and people in the know that say rack or don't rack. So its also never easy to tell which is the right way. Sometimes you have to try them both and decide on your own or pick a theory and follow it. Its very easy to look back and decide your way is correct. Looking forward it is not that easy.

At this point I personally am not convinced that either way is the best way. I will have to see what happens and make a decision based on what I learn.

Would you question or debate the racking advice given in a class like this? Cider-Academy

oldtimeydave said:

Would you question or debate the racking advice given in a class like this? Cider-Academy

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we are stealing this thread and taking it off topic but yes I would. A fancy site and class someone offers does not make what they say truth. Just because its on the internet does not make it true. Its true to me when I have tried something and it works or does not work. Not because someone says it is correct. I still content that there are 2 sides to this and both can be correct. In this case there is no one best way. There are too many people that don't agree with the rack always concept to make it right without self testing.

If you would like to open a new thread Id be happy to respond. If these can be cut out to a new thread thats great too. At this point we have hijacked the OPs thread.

Yeah I was under the impression we were talking about racking cider.

You can have the last word on all that just as you did every other time I injected my opinion on the matter.

Well, I'm a racker too. Anytime I have lees that are 1/4 inch thick, or whenever I have lees after 45-60 days no matter how thick, I rack. I don't see why not, to be honest. What would be gained by not racking? I guess there could be the argument that some people leave wine sur lie, but that is done with some stirring. I wouldn't think leaving cider sur lie would benefit the cider at all.

Hmmm. I've wondered about racking my secondary on a few batches I currently have going. They have got a slight layer of sediment, not too much but more than I'd like for sure. Racking cane here I come.



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Listening to: Typhoon All Stars - Rack-A-Tack
via FoxyTunes

I always rack after about a month, I haven't tried not doing this but so far I have had good results. I usually bulk age in a secondary for at least a few months so it just makes sense to me to rack off the lees.

oldtimeydave said:

Yeah I was under the impression we were talking about racking cider.

You can have the last word on all that just as you did every other time I injected my opinion on the matter.

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Dave my original comment was a joke and I am sorry if you did not take it that way. In hind site it was not really very funny but it was hurtful.

If the reason you rack is to clear up a primarry you obviously don't have enough equipment...

Equipment... I wish I something like a good sized conical. Dropping it out would be much easier.

homebrewer_99 said:

If the reason you rack is to clear up a primarry you obviously don't have enough equipment...

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lapaglia, I appreciate your gesture. I think it was more disrespectful than hurtful as this is suppose to be a place where everyone can visit and share experiences with new folks and even get advice from more experienced brewers. I've been making and reading cider now for like 5 years admittedly making it poorly for most of that time.

In my opinion it is due in part to one or more of the following:
1) Not having a stricter racking procedure. ie on the lees way too long and/or no racking.
2) Not honoring strict temperature parameters of yeast
3) Not having a nutrient system in place.

I think those can be really common stupid mistakes most brewers make at some point. I wasn't trying to imply your way hasn't workeda becuase I know it can, but in my experience not racking increases your odds of a failed brew. Cider takes so much time that it is devastating to screw up a batch. Plus those of us who press have to wait until next apple season. So I don't take chances anymore.

Like all of us here I'm just hoping I can inspire someone and possibly save them a few years of their cider making or brewing career by sharing my mistakes and experiences.

Anyways thanks for your post and let me know how your racking/not racking experiment works. Stuff like that would be nice to reference.

homebrewer_99 said:

If the reason you rack is to clear up a primarry you obviously don't have enough equipment...

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Can you ever have too much equipment?




oldtimeydave
Well it was a joke that didnt translate to paper.

I am going to try a split batch and will post the results when its done.

Hi,

I'm relatively new to brewing. The last batch of cider I had, I racked after 2 weeks (fermentation had slowed), but the secondary I let sit for about a month. When I sampled it, it had a really off taste that tasted a lot like rubber. I've assumed it was from the bung for the fermentation lock, but I was wondering if you all had any ideas or heard of that. I'm especially curious because I'm brewing a new batch (just a gallon), and I'm wondering if more frequent racking could help eliminate that.

More racking than at week 2 and week 6 is for sure not needed. I don't think I would even rack it that often. I rack when it gets between 1.000 and 1.010 and then let it sit for a long time, sometimes racking if there are too much lees, around 1/4" to 1/2"

My first batch I didn't have a secondary. I bottled after four weeks. And you guys are really gonna laugh at this we finished the whole five gallons by week eight. Everyone who tried it loved it. But I'm sure by the standards I have seen here it most likely would have tasted like swill to you guys.

No, it just would have tasted better to you if you had waited longer. Get more going so you have a pipeline and dont need to drink the green stuff.

lapaglia said:

No, it just would have tasted better to you if you had waited longer. Get more going so you have a pipeline and dont need to drink the green stuff.

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I have a 6 gallon carboy and a 7.5 gallon bucket on the way!!!

According to USP tracking in should be at my house when I get home.

:rockin:

My first cider making experience ended thusly:

I had a 5 gallon batch of cider I started in a carboy back in ~October. As things will happen I got busy and never racked off the lees until the end of March.

The cider was nicely tart and dry on the front of the tongue when testing but had a soapy taste and residue on the back of the tongue.

It had developed some sort of floating material but my microbiologist co-brewer decided it was not a bacteria or fungus so we planned to bottle.

I am still waiting for opinions from some wine drinking friends but my wife is the main cider drinker and will not touch the stuff due to the taste issue.

It's a shame because it tweren't too bad until you decide to swallow a drink. Maybe I can salvage it into vinegar.

I put cider in primary for 7-10 days in bucket, then rack into carboy and re-rack at least 3 times at 21 day intervals then bottle or bulk age until it's needed to be drank in which case I siphon off into 1 gal jugs for consumption.

Firstnten said:

My first batch I didn't have a secondary. I bottled after four weeks. And you guys are really gonna laugh at this we finished the whole five gallons by week eight. Everyone who tried it loved it. But I'm sure by the standards I have seen here it most likely would have tasted like swill to you guys.

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Drink up and make more! This is definitely a good young brew. I have yet to age one more than 3 mos in a bottle...I got apple/cherry trying to wait it out until June!

Firstnten said:

I have a 6 gallon carboy and a 7.5 gallon bucket on the way!!!

According to USP tracking in should be at my house when I get home.

:rockin:

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I support your happiness, lol.

I do 2 weeks then rack to secondary. Another 2 to 3 weeks then bottling/drinking. Back sweeten at bottling.

fairskyes said:

I support your happiness, lol.



I do 2 weeks then rack to secondary. Another 2 to 3 weeks then bottling/drinking. Back sweeten at bottling.

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I do the same roughly 2 weeks depending on temp and yeast but in the past using premier cuvée yeast i never racked to secondary there was never any need it settled and aged in primary apfelwein recipe. I have a keg now and it's my only hobby lol so i like to do a little more now..