Efficiency too high?

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menschmaschine

menschmaschine

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OK, I know it sounds crazy, but I can't seem to get it right. I've brewed 3 AG batches so far and they all had an OG higher than expected... anywhere from 8 to 11 points high. I got the grain for my first batch with a predicted efficiency of 75% and the OG was high. I chalked that up to inexperience and did the same for the second batch... still too high. So for the 3rd batch, I bumped up my efficiency to 80% in Promash and the OG was still too high (11 points!). By the 3rd batch, I thought I had everything right. My mash temps and times were dead-on, my sparge was nearly perfect, and my preboil volumes were exactly what Promash calculated. So, what could be causing this? My system is a 3-tier, 3-keg, 3 burner system. I fly-sparge. My well water has a low pH (like 5.5 or less). Any ideas? What is considered maximum efficiency? Should I just bump up my efficiency in Promash to 85%? Many thanks.
 
menschmaschine said:
OK, I know it sounds crazy, but I can't seem to get it right. I've brewed 3 AG batches so far and they all had an OG higher than expected... anywhere from 8 to 11 points high. I got the grain for my first batch with a predicted efficiency of 75% and the OG was high. I chalked that up to inexperience and did the same for the second batch... still too high. So for the 3rd batch, I bumped up my efficiency to 80% in Promash and the OG was still too high (11 points!). By the 3rd batch, I thought I had everything right. My mash temps and times were dead-on, my sparge was nearly perfect, and my preboil volumes were exactly what Promash calculated. So, what could be causing this? My system is a 3-tier, 3-keg, 3 burner system. I fly-sparge. My well water has a low pH (like 5.5 or less). Any ideas? What is considered maximum efficiency? Should I just bump up my efficiency in Promash to 85%? Many thanks.
Click to expand...
If your well water has a pH of 5.5 or less, I'd move to somewhere where drinking water doesn't rot your teeth enamel. However, I have Promash set to 85% efficiency when I fly sparge (and I adjust it to 80% if I batch sparge.)
 
ajf said:
If your well water has a pH of 5.5 or less, I'd move to somewhere where drinking water doesn't rot your teeth enamel. However, I have Promash set to 85% efficiency when I fly sparge (and I adjust it to 80% if I batch sparge.)
Click to expand...

Oh c'mon. Beer has a pH of around 4.1 and I drink lots of that! :drunk: Who needs teeth, anyway? Although, if I keep getting these high OG's, I'll need them to chew my beer! I'll try the 85% in Promash next time and see what happens. Thanks for the input.
 
The only time you need to start worrying about your efficiency being too high is if you are over sparging and your Ph rises enough to start extracting lots of tannins. Otherwise just do as you are and adjust your recipe's efficiency to match what you are seeing.
 
dantodd said:
The only time you need to start worrying about your efficiency being too high is if you are over sparging and your Ph rises enough to start extracting lots of tannins. Otherwise just do as you are and adjust your recipe's efficiency to match what you are seeing.
Click to expand...

My fly-sparge takes about 30 minutes, maybe a little more on a 12 gallon batch. Is that about right? I don't think I've had a problem with tannins, but I'm not sure what they taste like. Based on tea drinking, I would think they would taste a little puckering, if that's a word. Come to think of it, my 2nd batch (a Bitter w/ mostly Marris Otter) has a little puckering quality to it, but it's only been in the bottle a week and I'm hoping it mellows out. That's a good point, though. Being that my well water has such a low pH, I wouldn't think it would get too high. But I have access to borrowing a good pH meter... I'll try to borrow it next time I brew to get a better idea what's going on. Thanks.
 
What is your actual efficiency? I fly sparge (mine takes me about an hour) and I get 87-91% on a regular basis. I crush my own grain (scary fine) and haven't detected any tannins. I adjust all of my recipes to 87% and come within a point of my gravities.
 
You could just take your pre-boil gravity, adjust for the increased volume, then figure on a higher post-boil volume (more beer!!) and adjust your hop schedule accordingly. There's nothing wrong with high efficiency...and certainly nothing wrong with more beer.
 
ajf said:
If your well water has a pH of 5.5 or less, I'd move to somewhere where drinking water doesn't rot your teeth enamel. However, I have Promash set to 85% efficiency when I fly sparge (and I adjust it to 80% if I batch sparge.)
Click to expand...

Coke has a pH of about 2.
 
I've never actually calculated my efficiency before (duh). This 3rd batch I just did was one where I really utilized the software, so I'll have to do that when I get home tonight. As for preboil gravity, that's definitely something I need to explore more. It's much easier to add water before the boil, than after. Is there any trick to getting an accurate reading besides getting the temp. down and stirring to mix up the different gravities of wort (w/o splashing- HSA)?
 
That dry puckering feel, like over-done tea is tannins. I certainly wouldn't venture to say YOU have that problem only that when the SG of your sparge gets low the Ph can rise on you (so I've read over and over again, yet to do my first AG)

As for cooling wort for a pre-boil test running them into the kettle should mix it up enough for an accurate reading. You can then take our hydrometer tube and once you fill it just put it in a cool water bath, shouldn't take long at all to get down near 70. I wouldn't worry about HSA unless you are running 02 through it, even then... the only testing I've seen suggests that HSA, within reason, doesn't cause any off tastes. Dropping 1000 gallons of wort into a 6 story kettle on an industrial level might give you different results.
 
OK, now this is getting ridiculous... I just calculated my efficiency on TastyBrew and got 95%. Is that even possible? I would think I made some mistake, but my hydrometer and volumes don't lie. I even saved my hydrometer full of wort and checked it later when it was exactly 60 F. I'll type my recipe/procedures below to see what you guys think, but I'm still curious about my well water. Like I said before, the pH is around 5.5 it is relatively soft water with low mineral content. I've not seen any info online/in books about the effects of such a low pH on brewing. Could it be that such a low pH could help with higher efficiency?

Munich Helles- 12 Gallon Batch

19.25 lbs Pilsen (Belgian- Dingeman's)
1.00 lb Munich 10L
0.33 lb Cara-Pils

Mash:
1.22 qts/lb = 6.9 qts water
Mash at 150 F for 60 min.
Mash Out- 168 F
Fly Sparge- 168 F... I think it took like 35-40 min.

Pre-boil volume = 12.6 gal
Boil Time = 1 hr
Post-boil volume = 11.75 gal (it was somewhere between 11.5 and 12)

Not that it matters for efficiency, but I used 13.9 IBUs Hallertauer and 6.4 IBUs Tettnang at 60 min, no aroma hops. Also, used WLP830 yeast from previous batch.

Predicted OG was 1.048, Actual OG was 1.059-1.060.
 
If I remember correctly 100% isn't actually all of the sugar in the grain. I think it has to do with laboratory extraction done with really fine milling. The Brewing Network just had an episode on efficiency and it might be instructive. I think one of the guys said he was getting over 90% regularly.

The only thing I can imagine that might be giving you troubles (assuming you don't actually have 97% eff.) is the grain weight. Is there any chance you got more grain than planned?
 
have you checked the accuracy of your hydrometer?? 97% is pretty much unheard of and yes...close to impossible.
 
Yes and yes (scale and hydrometer)... I stood over the shoulder of the LHBS guy and watched the scale. Calibrated from zero, he added weight to my specified amount. Unless his scale is off in it's measurements. My hydrometer reads 1.000 w/ distilled water. I guess I'll just up my efficiency to 90% in Promash next time and see what happens!
 
sounds like a plan. I'd also keep a pound or 2 of DME in case you miss and be sure to take an SG reading before boiling so you can adjust your hops if your OG is still higher than anticipated.
 
Would your grain to water effect your efficiency? In other words you plan your grain for 5 gallons but only collect 4. The reason why I say this is that I did a batch that I thought was extremely high but I think I only collected 4 gallons of beer at the end. So while my effeciency was high I was considerably lower than I thought I was. If your judging youre water volume by the liter marks on your kettle, it may not be as accurate as you think. Not to rain on your parade or anything.
 
dantodd said:
sounds like a plan. I'd also keep a pound or 2 of DME in case you miss and be sure to take an SG reading before boiling so you can adjust your hops if your OG is still higher than anticipated.
Click to expand...

Oh no... my dreaded DME! I've never brewed extract, but I did a starter with it once and didn't really like the smell of boiling extract. But I love the smell of mashing! I guess I can add DME if I'm low, but I might just add corn sugar instead. It's just that when I brew German lagers, I try to stick to the ol' Purity Law. I even save gyle to bottle. Maybe someday I'll get over that. So I'll brew a British or Belgian ale for my next batch and won't hesitate to add dextrose if the pre-boil SG is low.

As for Mr. Hoot, not to break the sun through your rain clouds, but I calibrated my keggles with sight-gauges! :)
 

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