Alternative Brewing

Just remembered something else I've done differently, that in the end, I could discern no difference. I researched partial boil AG, but found most people scorning the practice. I went ahead and tried it twice, and I couldn't see any difference in the outcome.

Since I only boil for 20-25 minutes, the darker color you're supposed to get went unnoticed, if it happened at all. This is a good way to make a larger batch than you normally could if you don't have the proper heat or pot size. You could make a 5 gallon batch in a five gallon pot by only boiling 3 gallons or so.

My last batch was 3 gallons, and at the start of my boil I had only 2 gallons of wort. At the end of the boil, I diluted with ice cold water and chilled conventionally in the sink with ice and water. No problems!

I usually brew with a no sparge method, which goes quicker too, but you do have to use more grain.

man, sorry i missed this thread when it was hot.

Alter, i totally appreciate your 'against the grain' (pun totally intended) attitude towards brewing, but i don't think you're really reinventing the wheel here. with all the new brewers on HBT because of christmas, i think you're post was ill timed and struck a chord with some experienced brewers who, after seeing tons of noobs struggling with the basics, pointed the obvious out to you.
like a few others said, if it works for you, awesome. but there's many flaws in many of your statements that may or may not negatively effect the outcome of one's beer were they to try them. the mash temp issue for instance, you may not be able to tell the difference between a beer mashed at 145 as opposed to 155, but most people can. most people can also detect the differences between a beer boiled for an hour with timed hop additions from one boiled for 15 minutes with a hop tea added 'sometime' in the boil. i'm guessing a lot of folks could also taste the difference between a beer that was intentionally oxidized in the bottling process and one that was bottled carefully without introducing excessive oxygen.
as for the rest, most people have tried these things before, nothing alternative there.

sometimes it's fun to be different. personally, i find great enjoyment in being different by doing things like ordering a nice tasty Alt when my buddies are ordering Mich Ultra. (sorry, couldn't pass that one up)

I believe when I was new to homebrewing I always felt the majority of my beer was sh*t, with a few good ones sneaking through. Those good beers inspired me to improve all my processes in a 'traditional' manner, which resulted in a much improved percentage of really good beers. I can easily make stuff that is drinkable but I strive for my beer to be great, because I love drinking great beer.

If 'alternative methods' make drinkable beer by all means do it, but anyone can put kool aid packets in a trash bag and make prison hooch. My advice would be to drink a lot more really good beer and then see if what you are making is actually that good.

Norde struck a good point here. When we judge beers on panels we are picking out things in the beer as well as the brewer's process that could or have been shown to help make better beer. Most judges should be giving positive feedback as well as constructive criticism, but it all boils down to is this the best brewed beer in the category? If not, how can we assist the brewer to make it the best beer?

Most of the things the OP has mentioned are specifically things that get dinged in competition. Now I know the majority of you are thinking, "but I don't brew to compete." this is fine, it makes you no less a great brewer, but is not your goal to make GREAT beer? By using many of these methods the OP has talked about I feel the brewer is cheating himself out of making the best beer he could make. Things like DMS, diacytal, high mash temps and tannin extract are all things taught by the BJCP classes, and are exactly what brewing practices like this will lead to. As Norde stated, just because YOU can't taste these flaws doesn't mean others can't.

ok, i have to share my opinion.

although i find myself in agreement with most of these posts, i would like to say,

im not looking to shorten my brew day, i enjoy the 6-8 hours i spend brewing a batch. i will occasionally take care of a few things in advance such as grinding malt the day before or setting up my rig the night before.
i do full boils (60-90 min) and full mashes (mostly 60 min) because i believe they contribute fully to the finished product.
"secondary" fermentation? my raspberry pale is the only one i brew that requires it, now if it seems that i have a more than average amount of trub (not yeasts) settling out, i may move it off of it.
"alternative methods" - from what ive read in this post, this seems a very moot point. didnt really run into anything that seemed alternative. brewing in a completely sealed system and moving water from the HLT to Mash Tun to kettle via a vacuum setup or mashing with a autoclave type press system, that would seem "alternative to me.

All in all people, if your enjoying your craft/hobby/disorder and your brewing beer you enjoy, then run with it. If im looking to have a good beer fast, ill grab a racer 5 out of my bottle fridge. if i want to craft a great beer, ill spend the time in research, ill continue to lager my pilzen for 90 days and ill vourlauf my IPAs until the cows come home.
Great beers are great, but my homebrew is mine and thus very special to me. ill take the time, doing it the old tried and true way that works for me, to get what i want. if i can shave some time by cleaning and sanitizing more efficient or having everything set up early i will but i wont try to tell anyone that my way is better or more efficient or cutting edge.
As far as shortcuts go, they are just that, a shorter way to the end. think of it like this: your traveling to a destination. One hundred miles this way and 65 miles that way. sure youll knock off 35 miles, but you wont get to see the worlds largest ball of twine, youll miss out on that 3 mile long sweeping left hand turn that cuts across a beautiful canyon, and you wont be able to stop at that groovy little BBQ shack that has the best ribs this side of Heaven. but you will end up in the same place, but you will have missed quite a bit.

Like i said, i enjoy my entire brew day, it s my day, my beer, my way...

Now, back to that autoclave mash press tun thing..,...

maltbarleyhops said:

...and you wont be able to stop at that groovy little BBQ shack that has the best ribs this side of Heaven.

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And where did you say this place was?

supe_kitchen said:

I believe when I was new to homebrewing I always felt the majority of my beer was sh*t, with a few good ones sneaking through. Those good beers inspired me to improve all my processes in a 'traditional' manner, which resulted in a much improved percentage of really good beers. I can easily make stuff that is drinkable but I strive for my beer to be great, because I love drinking great beer.

If 'alternative methods' make drinkable beer by all means do it, but anyone can put kool aid packets in a trash bag and make prison hooch. My advice would be to drink a lot more really good beer and then see if what you are making is actually that good.

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I've already tried many bottled macro and micro brews in my time. Honestly, I have yet to find one that tastes as good as one from my best batches.

Prison Hootch? Get outta here! You would be very welcome to try one of mine if you were close by. I think you would be quite surprised.

AlterBrewer said:

I've already tried many bottled macro and micro brews in my time. Honestly, I have yet to find one that tastes as good as one from my best batches.

Prison Hootch? Get outta here! You would be very welcome to try one of mine if you were close by. I think you would be quite surprised.

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I think part of where you may have lost a lot of people in regards to having faith in your preferences in beer was when you called Longhammer a "very good IPA." I encourage you too enjoy what you like, and I'm certainly not questioning your opinion of anything. But I think that many in this discussion would perhaps not agree that Longhammer is a very good IPA.

Again, I want to be very clear that I think everyone should drink what they want, and I think everyone here would agree. I am not questioning the validity of your tastes, I just think that you're not convincing many people that your beer must be good if your comparison point is Longhammer.

discnjh said:

I think part of where you may have lost a lot of people in regards to having faith in your preferences in beer was when you called Longhammer a "very good IPA." I encourage you too enjoy what you like, and I'm certainly not questioning your opinion of anything. But I think that many in this discussion would perhaps not agree that Longhammer is a very good IPA.

Again, I want to be very clear that I think everyone should drink what they want, and I think everyone here would agree. I am not questioning the validity of your tastes, I just think that you're not convincing many people that your beer must be good if your comparison point is Longhammer.

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I just finished reading through the thread and was about to bring this up. Long Hammer really isn't a very good IPA in my books, even for how cheap it can be bought. Put one of your IPAs up next to Two Hearted, Stone, Odell's, or Firestone Walker, then tell us how it compares. Those four IPAs are in many people's eyes extremely good examples of the style, Long Hammer kinda falls short of that title for most.

This thread is aptly named because:

No Chill and BIAB are NOT the standard brewing procedures. This should go without saying. Man, do you know what the proponents of these two methods had to endure just to get these two methods accepted? They're STILL impuned. Just because "many" on this forum may use these two methods, and many elsewhere, doesn't negate the fact that these are alternative ways to brew. I, for one, am thankful that the Aussies brought these into the limelight, so at least they're pretty well known, now. But...still not the norm. Heck, even No Sparge is alternative. At least John Palmer mentioned in his book, though.

Why I started this thread is to show that you can brew with alternative techniques and make great beer. I also mentioned that I'm a minimalist, for the most part. So I didn't want to purchase a wort chiller, mash tun, vinator, bottling bucket, etc. Sometimes being a minimalist does mean a little more trouble, but I don't have storage and extra cleaning issues involved with purchasing all the "toys". Save a lot of money, too.

We already know of the advantages of brewing the traditional way and having all the nice "toys" to make brewing more enjoyable. This thread is just suggesting some ideas, some mine and some already well known, that are alternative and minimalist in nature.

If you don't think that what I've mentioned so far is alternative then read on:

Try striking up a conversation about BIAB or NC in your LHBS or somewhere like AHB, Midwest, or Northern Brewer, and see how far you get. Mention brewing for only 20 minutes. Notice the silence or "huh"?

Read any textbook on homebrewing. Sorry, I missed the chapters on BIAB and No Chill!

Visit most any internet site on homebrewing; again use a mash tun and chill quickly, or else!

Do a poll on this forum; how many of you BIAB and NC as your main methods? Betcha the great majority don't.

So, please, no more about how this thread isn't talking about alternative methods. And please don't take me out of context. I'm not claiming to have invented anything.

I'm not spearheading any revolution, just wanted my point of view out there. Several times people post and wonder about things like shorter boil times, partial boil AG, splashing around the beer during bottling, etc. I'm here to tell you not to worry, go ahead and try new things, experiment, don't be told that you're beer is going to suffer. My experience is that everything is fine in the end.

Honestly, dude, I think a big part of the reason you got the response you did is your posts came off as "look at how cool I am and the stuff I'm doing!" I mean, "Maybe, like me, you have even busted a brewing myth or two!" doesn't make it sound like you're just interested in sharing information, it sounds a lot like you're bragging about how awesome you are. And that's going to tend to get a "oh yeah, well we'll show you" reaction from people. I'm not saying that's right, but that's part of human nature. Just trying to maybe provide some insight into why you got some of the responses you did.

AlterBrewer said:

This thread is aptly named because:

No Chill and BIAB are NOT the standard brewing procedures. This should go without saying. Man, do you know what the proponents of these two methods had to endure just to get these two methods accepted?

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Yeah actually we DO KNOW....Since many of the proponents of No-Chill brewing in America, did their enduring and convincing ON THIS VERY FORUM. I was one of the folks defending it, but that was a long time ago, man.

That's the issue, you're new here, you've just signed on. You have no idea of our culture, our history, and what we talk about on here. Do you actually read this forum, or did you just come in with guns a blazin?

Did you happen to notice all the threads on here DAILY about BIAB and No chill brewing?

The reason folks are saying that it's not very alternative, is because on here on THIS FORUM, it's not! Just like long primaries and some of the other things talked about every day on here, we've been talking about it, and experimenting about it and sharing our insights on here, FOR YEARS about it.

We've been talking about No-Chill and BIAB on here since Feb of 2009, the very day that the issue of BYO magazine where John Palmer first introduced those concepts to we yanks, hit our mailboxes. I remember that first thread like it was yesterday.

People actually were convinced that you could die from botulism from doing no-chill brewing. Did you know that? That's the kind of arguments we had about it.

But if you can't count that's 3 bloody years ago!!!!!!!!

That's why most folks are saying to you, "Ain't nothing new here fella" because is the forum, with over 40,000 members, it's "been there, done that, designed the t-shirt."

Have you actually read our forum? Maybe if you did then you'd see why were not worshiping the ground you walk on for bringing this stuff up.

The that's the point I think, you're so p-oed that noone is seeing you for the brewing genuis that you think you are for bringing this stuff to the masses.....

Maybe if you look around you might see that a lot of the groundbreaking work on that, originated right here in this forum.

Like I said earlier, maybe you could stand to learn some things from us.....

On here the debate is not that BIAB/No Chill is a viable means of brewing, on here, the last year it has been, whether or not BIAB/No-chill brewing should have it's own subsection of the forum.

We've come a long way in 3 years, on this subject, baby.

Perhaps if you looked around here, and see what we're about maybe you'd see that.

A lot of the folks on here, are the one's writing the next generation of books, or articles or podcasts...and you can be assured that those things are being covered.

phenry said:

I just finished reading through the thread and was about to bring this up. Long Hammer really isn't a very good IPA in my books, even for how cheap it can be bought. Put one of your IPAs up next to Two Hearted, Stone, Odell's, or Firestone Walker, then tell us how it compares. Those four IPAs are in many people's eyes extremely good examples of the style, Long Hammer kinda falls short of that title for most.

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What's so bad about Longhammer, I don't get it? I haven't tried the one's you've mentioned, but I have tried a couple that had so much hop "flavor" and aroma that they were disgusting.

What you are saying as well, is subjective. Another very good IPA from the past, was made by Saranac. Don't know if it's still available. It was the first IPA I ever had, and it made me a fan of IPA/APA styles.

I tend to like the more simple brews, not the complex ones. I'm a fan of the SMASH concept. The only beers I brew are APA, Blonde, American Wheat, and maybe Munich-based Amber. That's it! I don't care to try brewing anything else. I have toasted wheat malt and 2 Row both, with good results, if I want some more malty flavor. I don't use Crystal Malts at all, anymore, as I feel the beer flavor was adversely affected by them. Just not a fan, and prefer more of a pure grain taste, maybe?

Revvy said:

that's four bloody years ago!!!

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Your math is wrong, revvy. 2/2009 is three years ago.

AlterBrewer said:

I've already tried many bottled macro and micro brews in my time. Honestly, I have yet to find one that tastes as good as one from my best batches.

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You can't expect to be taken seriously here with that attitude. We've all heard many times that "I" make the best beer i've ever tasted, far too many i's in that sentence.


_

AZ_IPA said:

Your math is wrong, revvy. 2/2009 is three years ago.

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I originally wrote three.....show's how good my math is....

Revvy said:

Yeah actually we DO KNOW....Since many of the proponents of No-Chill brewing in America, did their enduring and convincing ON THIS VERY FORUM. I was one of the folks defending it, but that was a long time ago, man.

That's the issue, you're new here, you've just signed on. You have no idea of our culture, our history, and what we talk about on here. Do you actually read this forum, or did you just come in with guns a blazin?

Did you happen to notice all the threads on here DAILY about BIAB and No chill brewing?

The reason folks are saying that it's not very alternative, is because on here on THIS FORUM, it's not! Just like long primaries and some of the other things talked about every day on here, we've been talking about it, and experimenting about it and sharing our insights on here, FOR YEARS about it.

We've been talking about No-Chill and BIAB on here since Feb of 2009, the very day that the issue of BYO magazine where John Palmer first introduced those concepts to we yanks, hit our mailboxes. I remember that first thread like it was yesterday.

People actually were convinced that you could die from botulism from doing no-chill brewing. Did you know that? That's the kind of arguments we had about it.

But if you can't count that's 4 bloody years ago!!!!!!!!

That's why most folks are saying to you, "Ain't nothing new here fella" because is the forum, with over 40,000 members.

Have you actually read our forum? Maybe if you did then you'd see why were not worshiping the ground you walk on for bringing this stuff up.

The that's the point I think, you're so p-oed that noone is seeing you for the brewing genuis that you think you are for bringing this stuff to the masses.....

Maybe if you look around you might see that a lot of the groundbreaking work on that, originated right here in this forum.

Like I said earlier, maybe you could stand to learn some things from us.....

On here the debate is not that BIAB/No Chill is a viable means of brewing, on here, the last year it has been, whether or not BIAB/No-chill brewing should have it's own subsection of the forum.

Perhaps if you looked around here, and see what we're about maybe you'd see that.

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I'm aware that this forum is progressive. I've been reading this forum for over a year. Did you actually read my posts? You can't seriously think that all this is mainstream?

If anyone is Pissed off, it's you! If you don't like my thread, then move on, bro!

I think you're nitpicking just because I'm new here, and somehow you construe my intentions as being some kind of pioneer. Not the case, just thought it might be interesting to share my experiences.

By the tone of your post, it sounds like you could take a little advice from your avatar: RDWHAHB

BTW, I read those posts you mentioned. You are not realizing that these methods are still not the preferred methods, by most. So therefore, they are alternative!

Near as I can see, this is the very first thread about BIAB/No-chill brewing that I recall. Note that it is March, 2009 New BYO Aussi brewing article .

And we have several threads on the subject which have has hundreds if not thousands of views on it. Like this one, and this one and this thread has over a thousand posts in it.

If you bothered to look, you'd see we have threads about "hop bursting" and spicing nochill batches, how to calculate efficiencies with BIAB, and how to step mash.....It's all here.

On here, they're not alternative. No matter what you say.

And honestly on here I think it's getting closer to 50% BIAB vs other methods of Ag...Everytime ag is mentioned, someone jumps in about biab...Just like everytime someone mentions bottling, someone has to jump in and mentions kegging. It's almost becomming as annoying.

I think BIAB on here, has gotten more people to all grain than anything else has.

*shrug*

AlterBrewer said:

The only beers I brew are APA, Blonde, American Wheat, and maybe Munich-based Amber. That's it! I don't care to try brewing anything else. I have toasted wheat malt and 2 Row both, with good results, if I want some more malty flavor. I don't use Crystal Malts at all, anymore, as I feel the beer flavor was adversely affected by them. Just not a fan, and prefer more of a pure grain taste, maybe?

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Does this paragraph make anyone else laugh?

wildwest450 said:

You can't expect to be taken seriously here with that attitude. We've all heard many times that "I" make the best beer i've ever tasted, far too many i's in that sentence.


_

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Not meant to be arrogant. Just being honest. Taste is subjective! I just mentioned this to make a point, that my beer ain't that bad!

Airborneguy said:

Does this paragraph make anyone else laugh?

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It's alternative brewing, man!


_

It is already apparent to any new people reading this, but to add my two cents...

Alter is basically just a cavalier brewer. Not measuring stuff or taking into account the scientific aspects of brewing is not revolutionary. Most people who have been brewing for a long time have had one too many early int he brew day then said 'screw it' and not measured anything and cut all the corners. That has been happening since antiquity. To claim it as a progressive brewing style is a bit off.

BIAB works. So does no chill. They are both fine techniques. A 30 minute mash is fine too, if you are happy with the fermentation profile after 30 minutes, then that is great. Simplifying a brew day is a great thing, but your process isn't much simpler than a standard brew day and would only save about 45 minutes to an hour from my brew day.

The biggest difference between "conventional" brewer and the ideas described here are that you do not control your product. That is fine, but anyone new enough to be considering these ideas should know that is not the best way to get a quality product on a consistent basis.

Also, anecdotal evidence on the internet is worth about and much as my pile of wooden nickels. If long standing scientific evidence shows that oxidation is a major issue to the stability and quality of beer and has a significant contribution to a beers flavor, do you really think I should listen to you when you say "I have tasted no difference"? I myself do detect oxidation in my beers and other commercial beers that have been not been as badly mishandled as yours.

Not to go off and be a jerk, but touting your alternative brewing style is crazy talk. Many of the practices you discuss have been used to great effect for quite some time, but they should not be used cavalierly and be expected to produce consistent and quality results.

Airborneguy said:

Does this paragraph make anyone else laugh?

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Airborne:

Out of all the people, I think you have enjoyed my thread the most!

I totally have.

Its not because you are new man, it is because you are preaching a number of very bad practices mixed in with many well accepted practices and claiming the whole thing as some kind of movement.

Brew how you want, but anyone who makes claims like you have in this thread is going to come under fire to protect those who may not know that a lot of your ideas are not good.

AlterBrewer said:

I think you're nitpicking just because I'm new here, and somehow you construe my intentions as being some kind of pioneer. Not the case, just thought it might be interesting to share my experiences.

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If you're wondering why people "construe your intentions as being some kind of pioneer", consider the following:

AlterBrewer said:

Maybe, like me, you have even busted a brewing myth or two!

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AlterBrewer said:

I have developed my own methods that make brewing more effortless and efficient.

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AlterBrewer said:

I'm sure what I'm going to publish below will be pure beer heresy to most

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Those statements certainly sound like someone claiming to be a pioneer. I only point this out because if you really want to understand why you are getting the responses you are getting, statements like the above are part of the reason.

discnjh said:

If you're wondering why people "construe your intentions as being some kind of pioneer", consider the following:


Those statements certainly sound like someone claiming to be a pioneer. I only point this out because if you really want to understand why you are getting the responses you are getting, statements like the above are part of the reason.

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WOOT WOOT, we have a winner!!!!!!!

I especially love the mythbusting one, since this place has probably busted so many brewing myths that even Adam and Jamie have learned a thing or three about autolysis, hsa, aluminum, yadda yadda yadda, from us....

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

It is already apparent to any new people reading this, but to add my two cents...

Alter is basically just a cavalier brewer. Not measuring stuff or taking into account the scientific aspects of brewing is not revolutionary. Most people who have been brewing for a long time have had one too many early int he brew day then said 'screw it' and not measured anything and cut all the corners. That has been happening since antiquity. To claim it as a progressive brewing style is a bit off.

BIAB works. So does no chill. They are both fine techniques. A 30 minute mash is fine too, if you are happy with the fermentation profile after 30 minutes, then that is great. Simplifying a brew day is a great thing, but your process isn't much simpler than a standard brew day and would only save about 45 minutes to an hour from my brew day.

The biggest difference between "conventional" brewer and the ideas described here are that you do not control your product. That is fine, but anyone new enough to be considering these ideas should know that is not the best way to get a quality product on a consistent basis.

Also, anecdotal evidence on the internet is worth about and much as my pile of wooden nickels. If long standing scientific evidence shows that oxidation is a major issue to the stability and quality of beer and has a significant contribution to a beers flavor, do you really think I should listen to you when you say "I have tasted no difference"? I myself do detect oxidation in my beers and other commercial beers that have been not been as badly mishandled as yours.

Not to go off and be a jerk, but touting your alternative brewing style is crazy talk. Many of the practices you discuss have been used to great effect for quite some time, but they should not be used cavalierly and be expected to produce consistent and quality results.

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Yes, oxidation is a real issue, but do you really get it pre-bottling? Could it be that the yeast take care of the oxygen while the bottles are carbonating?

If anyone knows the answer for sure, then input, I'm here to learn. I just haven't noticed any difference in taste from pouring vs siphoning (so far).

Yes, any exposure to oxygen after the first 5-15ish hours of fermentation (this depends on factors such as the original gravity of the beer) in which the yeast are building cell walls and multiplying will react with the beer to form generally undesirable flavor compounds and "oxidize" the beer. During active fermentation the yeast does have some ability to absorb some oxygen, and to "scrub out" some level of oxygen via the motion of CO2 exiting the beer. However, after primary fermentation any exposure to oxygen will have a permanent effect on the oxidation level of the beer.

Pouring your beer will introduce a large amount of oxygen into the beer. Perhaps you enjoy the oxidized flavors this produces (a serious option) and think this enhances your beers. Or, like you stated, perhaps you are drinking all your beer fresh enough for oxidation to not fully affect the beer. That is fine and works great. However, stating that pouring your beer around all higgldy piggly will have no affect on oxidation levels is just factually inaccurate.

Any book with any level of in depth fermentation analysis will explain these concepts in more detail and more eloquently than I have here.

Do you do this because the bottling wand is too expensive ($1.50)? Even a bottling wand does not completely protect your beer for oxygen contact, but it is miles ahead of pouring your beer around post fermentation. I just don't understand this idea.

The micro fermentation that occurs in the bottle does not absorb or use all the oxygen present in the head space. Indeed, the micro fermentation and tiny amount of oxidation that inevitably occurs in bottle conditioning is a part of the effect of bottle conditioning. However, it should be controlled intentionally, not left to chance.

I apologize to everyone for the long responses...

AlterBrewer said:

I haven't tried the one's you've mentioned, but I have tried a couple that had so much hop "flavor" and aroma that they were disgusting. I'm a fan of the SMASH concept.

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If you like SmaSH type beers you should taste two hearted as mentioned. it's hopped solely with centennial and the grain bill isn't terribly complex.

I will also state that brewing myths have only really existed among the ignorant (me included). For example, non of these so called "myths" were unknown to professional brewers (e.g., BMC). Science has explained all these things for loooooong time. HBT has "solved" as many myths as Alter has (zero).

Off the top of my head, Kai is the only one who stands out as running actual scientific experiments with any amount of good data and conclusions. We as a community have been creative in solving problems to make better brewing more available to more people, but creativity is a different animal than "busting myths".

Focus on brewing better beer and learning more about how to control the process. Or don't and just brew beer that you like. Read some books, or don't. Claiming to bust myths is the internet equivalent to measuring your penis then bragging about it.

Wow this thread turned into something I was NOT expecting ... funny how that works out.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Yes, any exposure to oxygen after the first 5-15ish hours of fermentation (this depends on factors such as the original gravity of the beer) in which the yeast are building cell walls and multiplying will react with the beer to form generally undesirable flavor compounds and "oxidize" the beer. During active fermentation the yeast does have some ability to absorb some oxygen, and to "scrub out" some level of oxygen via the motion of CO2 exiting the beer. However, after primary fermentation any exposure to oxygen will have a permanent effect on the oxidation level of the beer.

Pouring your beer will introduce a large amount of oxygen into the beer. Perhaps you enjoy the oxidized flavors this produces (a serious option) and think this enhances your beers. Or, like you stated, perhaps you are drinking all your beer fresh enough for oxidation to not fully affect the beer. That is fine and works great. However, stating that pouring your beer around all higgldy piggly will have no affect on oxidation levels is just factually inaccurate.

Any book with any level of in depth fermentation analysis will explain these concepts in more detail and more eloquently than I have here.

Do you do this because the bottling wand is too expensive ($1.50)? Even a bottling wand does not completely protect your beer for oxygen contact, but it is miles ahead of pouring your beer around post fermentation. I just don't understand this idea.

The micro fermentation that occurs in the bottle does not absorb or use all the oxygen present in the head space. Indeed, the micro fermentation and tiny amount of oxidation that inevitably occurs in bottle conditioning is a part of the effect of bottle conditioning. However, it should be controlled intentionally, not left to chance.

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I own a bottling wand and racking cane. For the most part, I've siphoned since it disturbs the trub, less. But it is easier to just pick up a gallon jug and pour, when I'm using a gallon jug fermenter. It depends on the size of the fermenter.

I guess because I haven't experienced oxidized beer that I know of, I have to be skeptical.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

I will also state that brewing myths have only really existed among the ignorant (me included). For example, non of these so called "myths" were unknown to professional brewers (e.g., BMC). Science has explained all these things for loooooong time. HBT has "solved" as many myths as Alter has (zero).

Off the top of my head, Kai is the only one who stands out as running actual scientific experiments with any amount of good data and conclusions. We as a community have been creative in solving problems to make better brewing more available to more people, but creativity is a different animal than "busting myths".

Focus on brewing better beer and learning more about how to control the process. Or don't and just brew beer that you like. Read some books, or don't. Claiming to bust myths is the internet equivalent to measuring your penis then bragging about it.

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Nilo has a great thread about fermentability of crystal malts...

Yes, there have been good experiments here. My main point was to show Alter and others that he is not the only one not "busting myths". Very little actual discovery is done by homebrewers other than real world fixes and solutions. Anecdotal evidence and solutions to apparent problems do not bust myths or prove anything. Brewing is a science (whether you want it to be or not) and scientific solutions exist for all our problems and myths.

AlterBrewer said:

When the mash time is over, I don't bother checking pH, conversion, or any other technical voodoo.

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This is the statement that sort of bothered me. "Voodoo" implies mysticism, magic, ghosts, goblins, and make-believe...

The technical aspects of brewing are much more tangible than that.

I do think it's possible to make beer without sweating the technical details but I don't think anyone will make truly great beer without getting a bit technical about their brewing processes. This includes basic things like mash pH, water chemistry, gravity readings, mash temps, etc.

stamandster said:

Wow this thread turned into something I was NOT expecting ... funny how that works out.

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Yea, I kinda of expected it. Maybe it's my long winded first post. I didn't feel like going back and editing it like it was a book. I could of worded a few things differently, so I wouldn't have been as misunderstood.

Also, though, you can see how rumors get started. Just because I busted a myth or two in my opinion, doesn't mean that I am saying I was the first to do it. It just means that I had a chance to ALSO give it a try.

I mentioned in the OP that I had learned about BIAB and NC from the forums. I guess people just read what they want to and ignore the rest. I included them as alternative methods, because, well, they still are.

Seven said:

This is the statement that sort of bothered me. "Voodoo" implies mysticism, magic, ghosts, goblins, and make-believe...

The technical aspects of brewing are much more tangible than that.

I do think it's possible to make beer without sweating the technical details but I don't think anyone will make truly great beer without getting a bit technical about their brewing processes. This includes basic things like mash pH, water chemistry, gravity readings, mash temps, etc.

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Out of what you listed, I only pay attention to mash temps and gravity readings. I just don't worry anymore trying to keep a steady mash temp, as long as I'm within several degrees.

AlterBrewer said:

Just because I busted a myth or two in my opinion, doesn't mean that I am saying I was the first to do it.

I mentioned in the OP that I had learned about BIAB and NC from the forums.

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Okay you have to be trolling because nobody is this dense.

So you're saying you learned techniques on the forum on which you're trying to say you busted the myths of said techniques (but you didn't do it first.)

If that statement doesn't make sense then you now know how we feel when we read your posts.