Mr Malty Vs Beersmith 2.0 Yeast Starter

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smuth10

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I am planning on brewing tomorrow and need to make a starter for an 11 gal batch. I am trying to figure out how big of a starter I need and getting two totally different answer from Mr Malty and BS 2.0.

Wyeast 3711 Produced 1\30\12 for 11 Gallon Batch

Mr Malty Says:
458 Billion Need
2 Packs of Yeast
2.5L Starter

Beersmith 2.0 Says
417 Billion Needed
1 pack of Yeast
1.1L Starter

Not sure what I should be following here. Any advice?
 
Haven't tried bs 2.0 yeast feature yet. Does bs ask for yeast date? What is the OG? Also what method are you keeping suspension?
 
1.1L starter seems pretty small for an 11 gal batch. I usually use a 1L starter for a 5 gal batch.
Whats your OG?
 
Yes, BS 2.0 asks for the yeast date
1.060 is the OG
Stir Plate

I went back to make sure I have everything the same in both places. Maybe I am just slow. :drunk:
 
Here is a screen shot of the BS 2.0. The beer is the "How Rye Am I Saison" from HBT

BS2.0.bmp
 
weirdboy - I just went back and checked Mr Malty and it says 83% viability. Obviously that is the difference, but why such a big discrepancy???
 
That is based on the production date. Either your smack pack doesn't say 1/30/2012 on it, or the date you put into in Mr Malty is wrong.


EDIT:

OK, I just tried it in my copy of Beersmith 2, and it shows a viability of 88% with that package date on Wyeast. So something is messed up in your calculation there...maybe you need to update to the latest version? There have been a plethora of bugs found & fixed...
 
Smack packs both say 1/30/12 and date is correct in both. I have version 2.057 and it says it is the latest when I check it. It is Wyeast 3711

All of this aside would you do a 2L starter with 1 or 2 packs of yeast?
 
I was going to do that to begin with, but my main concern was the one program telling me to use 1 pack and the other 2.
 
Right, well play around with the Mr Malty calculator's "growth rate" slider at the bottom until you get 1 pack showing, then use that volume of starter.
 
I only have a 2L flask so two packs it is.

Sucks I cant trust Beersmith 2.0. I was really starting to like that program
 
There was another thread around here somewhere that had a quote from Brad, the author of Beersmith, where he thought that Jamil had some math errors in Mr. Malty, especially when using a stir-plate.
I myself have been taking the average of the two (Beersmith usually recommends 1/3 of what Mr. Malty does) for my last 4 brews, and they've come out quite nice. Coincidence? Maybe.
 
Beersmith is pre-set with a higher growth rate factor for a stir plate than Mr. Malty uses.

Go to Options -> Yeast Starter -> Stir Plate Factor - set to 1.55 (default is 2.66) your numbers will then match Mr. Malty almost exactly.
 
Beersmith is pre-set with a higher growth rate factor for a stir plate than Mr. Malty uses.

Go to Options -> Yeast Starter -> Stir Plate Factor - set to 1.55 (default is 2.66) your numbers will then match Mr. Malty almost exactly.

Great information. I love discovering new ways to use BeerSmith. I am bookmarking your tip. I wonder what the definitive answer really is. I know Brad at BeerSmith threw down the gauntlet to Jamil about this issue, but I can't find a MrMalty response.
 
Beersmith is pre-set with a higher growth rate factor for a stir plate than Mr. Malty uses.

Go to Options -> Yeast Starter -> Stir Plate Factor - set to 1.55 (default is 2.66) your numbers will then match Mr. Malty almost exactly.

Sweet. Thank you guys for all of this info. I was going nuts trying to figure this out. You guys rock!
 
Great information. I love discovering new ways to use BeerSmith. I am bookmarking your tip. I wonder what the definitive answer really is. I know Brad at BeerSmith threw down the gauntlet to Jamil about this issue, but I can't find a Mr Malty response.

I would also like some sort of answer as I rely pretty heavily on BS for quite a few things. I like the idea of averaging the two, but often that puts you right in between 1 packet of yeast or 2. At least with a limit of a 2L flask. At $6.50 each I would like to only have to go with one if I could.
 
Great information. I love discovering new ways to use BeerSmith. I am bookmarking your tip. I wonder what the definitive answer really is. I know Brad at BeerSmith threw down the gauntlet to Jamil about this issue, but I can't find a MrMalty response.

I'm not really sure there is a right or a wrong answer here... Jamil's calculator is a little more conservative whereas Beersmith is slightly less so. The only answer to know for sure is to do a cell count and figure out what the growth rate is on your equipment, and even then it will likely vary from strain to strain. For what its worth, I do have a scope and in my case Jamil's calc is quite conservative compared to the numbers I am seeing.
 
Not having a scope or counting grid, I can only go by what I see in the flask or mason jar. I know the volume of a White lab vial and think ...OK that's a 100 billion cells...I measure that amount and double the amount then triple ... etc. and observe how much volume it is in either a flask or mason jar.. So I have what I think should be the yeast level of say 500 billion cells. In order to get that amount of real yeast I think BS is more accurate.
 
So I started brewing this morning and my BS was acting up so I closed it and re-opened. When I went back in to the yeast starter to change it to two packs instead of one I noticed the yeast viability had changed to 82% instead of 96% it had in there yesterday. Crazy Sh!%. Either way, if I use BS to calculate my starter, two packs at 2L gives me way more than I need, at 82% or 96%. Live and learn. Whats another $6.50:D
 
Hi,
I did change the "stir plate" calculations in the newest version (beta) which is available here:
http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,6820.0.html

I agree they were too aggressive (it applied the stir plate growth factor to the entire yeast sample instead of just the "growth" portion) for the last version.

Brad

Brad-

What did you change? I downloaded the update and am not sure of a difference. I am doing a beer this weekend that needs 950bil cells and will be stepping up my starter. Did you change the growth factor with a stir plate? Mine still says 2.66.

Jared
 
Jared,
I changed the internal application of that factor - before it was applying it to the whole yeast count, while now it is applied only to the "growth" that occurs with your starter.

Brad
 
How is viability determined? I imagine viability is highly dependent on the very specific circumstances that pack of yeast has gone through. If one shipped via ground from the West Coast to the East in August, then sat in a storage room for days before being placed in a fridge, only to be purchased by someone on their lunch break who left the pack in their glove box, well they are going to have fewer cells than a guy who lives up the street from Wyeast who picked up his pack the day after it was packaged and put it right into his fridge within minutes of purchase. Even if they both use the yeast the same number of days after packaging one guy will have less. That throws all the rest of the numbers off.
 
How is viability determined? I imagine viability is highly dependent on the very specific circumstances that pack of yeast has gone through. If one shipped via ground from the West Coast to the East in August, then sat in a storage room for days before being placed in a fridge, only to be purchased by someone on their lunch break who left the pack in their glove box, well they are going to have fewer cells than a guy who lives up the street from Wyeast who picked up his pack the day after it was packaged and put it right into his fridge within minutes of purchase. Even if they both use the yeast the same number of days after packaging one guy will have less. That throws all the rest of the numbers off.

They're calculators, not crystal balls. :D

Yeast calculators like Beersmith, Mr Malty, and YeastCalc are designed to give you a rough estimate of what your yeast will do under "optimal" conditions. There are far too many variables involved in the propagation of yeast, for a mathematical model to produce precise numbers.

However, that does not mean that they are not useful tools.

At the very least they give the homebrewer a consistent, repeatable procedure for making starters, by which some of the variables can be reduced. The key concept here being 'consistency', something that all homebrewer's should strive for in their brewing process.

At best, they are fairly accurate, if the yeast has been handled correctly.
 
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