CAMRA / "Real" Ale

CAUTION: WHAT FOLLOWS IS MY PERSONAL RANT AGAINST BMC, IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED JUST KEEPING MOVING, THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

I talk down BMC every chance I get because BMC intentionally makes it hard for smaller guys to get a fair whack at the market. I know more then a few micros who have been dumped by distributors and had their tap slots pulled because BMC has told the distributor or retailer they will not tolerate them giving attention to other accounts. They use Wallyworld tactics to push out competion and claim shelf space. I have personal stories about these practices and some are not legal, but who has the money for a legal battle against BMC? You can call it market reality and say that is the reality of free enterprise, but I personally am not going to support them, nor am I going to sing their praise. I will take every opportunity to show them to be the pigs they are. And besides, in my opinion their beer tastes horrible, and just because a bunch of people drink it does not make it better. Lots of people eat McDonalds, but that doesn't make it good food.

OK, RANT COMPLETE, YOU CAN GO BACK TO WHATEVER YOU WERE DOING.

Brewpastor said:

BMC intentionally makes it hard for smaller guys to get a fair whack at the market.

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Believe it or not this is true also of Hallmark, the warn and fuzzy card people.

I guess it is true of lots of businesses and we get to choose if we support them or not.

Anyone who says CAMRA is useless or doesn't matter is probably too young to remember how really awful the state of beer was in the 1970s - when CAMRA came into existence! Particularly here in America. Well, I remember!

All the small guys we're being gobbled up or run into the ground by BMC. American beers were all becoming the same. Schlitz went from being decent to downright undrinkable. Old brands here in the Midwest like Edelweiss, Schoenhofen, Fox Deluxe, Keeley, Canadian Ace and Meister Brau had fallen one by one. Peter Hand, the last brewery in Chicago at the time, closed in 1978.

And the same sort of homogenous transformation was taking place across the pond. The first time I attempted homebrewing back in 1978, I became interested in better beers and they all seemed to come from outside the US, except for the truly oddballs of the day, like Anchor or Point, Huber and Leinenkugel here in the Midwest! That’s also the first time I heard about CAMRA. I applauded what they were trying to do and kept an eye on their progress. At the time I wished we had such an organization here.

Thank God the craft brewing movement took hold here in the US!

It seems to me that the whole "Real Ale" debate is culturally centered. As homebrewers when we hear "ale" we think of a top fermented beer brewed at relatively warm temperatures. Remember though (and any Brits out there can correct me if I'm wrong) that the word "ale" is, in itself, British and the term is largely unregulated. It's similar to the problem the Trappist monks had in the 20th century with non-Trappist breweries advertising their beers as Trappist. Combine that with an influx of lagers, fruity drinks, and whatnot and it's inevitable that there will be a counter-modern movement. I didn't see the site as rude, just determined. You have to differentiate yourself from other products or you cease to exist. As for denigrating other beers...well if B, M, and C can see fit to mock each other and each talk about how they taste better than the other two, well then I can say that MY brew tastes better than theirs, can't I?

I work at a bar, and I remember years ago we only had Miller Lite and Coors Light on draft, both of which we got from the same distributor. We decided we needed to get Bud Light on draft as well, and the distributor threw a fit! Well, we told them deal, because we're the customer and we're in charge of what we put on tap. They had no choice but to accept that. I've been in charge of what goes on our draft wall (we have ~50 taps) for years now, and I've made a huge effort to get as many local brews on tap as possible. We now have ten Texas brews on draft and seven in bottles. I'm very proud of that, and I'm still working on adding at least one more Texas brewery that I'm aware of to our selection. It is possible to get the good stuff in there, but we just have to accept that there are millions of people that just want a cheap buzz.

I'm not going to knock CAMRA for what they are trying to do. In fact, the only reason I was able to enjoy Caledonian Ale in Scotland a few years ago is probably because of CAMRA. Personally I like the real ale style. Of course, I like to brew a different beer every time. Variety is the spice of life.

Anyway...

Torchiest said:

...

.... And even with that permit, you can't sell your beer; you have to get a distributor to do it for you. I don't think that makes any sense. ...

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I'm not sure, but I think a lot of states are like this. The state gets taxes at distribution and the again at retail along with the local municipality. At least that's the way it is here in Alabama. Don't even get me started about trying to open a microbrew. Not to mention that beers in this state cannot be over 5.9%ABV and have to be in containers smaller than 1 US pint. Hopefully that will change soon (plug: http://www.freethehops.org/index.php).

olllllo said:

... The way we talk around here you'd think we have a tactical strike force devoted to slapping the Bud Lites our of peoples hands at Spring Break.
...

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LMAO oh man, that is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I'll volunteer to be the point man for the first squad formed.

Torchiest said:

I work at a bar, ...

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Seabrook... hey that's down next to Clear Lake. I thought it sounded familiar. What bar? I used to visit Houston on a regular basis (JSC, though I'm not in that business anymore.... well, not exactly anyway). I used to go to BJ's over on Bay Area every time I had a trip there. Gourmet pizza and Russian Imperial Stout. Man that's some good stuff.

Rocket said:

Seabrook... hey that's down next to Clear Lake. I thought it sounded familiar. What bar? I used to visit Houston on a regular basis (JSC, though I'm not in that business anymore.... well, not exactly anyway). I used to go to BJ's over on Bay Area every time I had a trip there. Gourmet pizza and Russian Imperial Stout. Man that's some good stuff.

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Yeah, I work at a place called Boondoggles. We have the best beer selection in a 20 mile radius. 50 taps and about 60 bottled beers. Heh, and we also serve gourmet specialty pizzas, and we've been here for more than eight years, before BJ's was on Bay Area. It's pretty close to the Johnson Space Center, actually. We get a ton of engineers and NASA employees in there, including the occasional astronaut. Small world!

Brewpastor said:

CAUTION: WHAT FOLLOWS IS MY PERSONAL RANT AGAINST BMC, IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED JUST KEEPING MOVING, THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

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*Caplan whistles 'Copacabana' by Barry Manilow in a 'you are on hold' style to the 'pure BMC Crowd' chosing to ignore Brewpastors post *

Brewpastor said:

OK, RANT COMPLETE, YOU CAN GO BACK TO WHATEVER YOU WERE DOING.

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Anyway, I only hope you guys that DON'T think BMC is the only thing worth drinking really read and understand Brewpastors post and then read Rhoobarb's comments of the decline of the beers and Breweries that ends with his upbeat conclusion:-

Rhoobarb said:

Thank God the craft brewing movement took hold here in the US!

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I'll drink to the success of Craft Brews from the US but DON'T LET HISTORY REPEAT IT'S SELF.

Micro/Craft Brewers of the USA make some of the best tasting beer in the world - Let's keep supporting them by buying their beer and recommending them to our friends too!

(Sorry if this last highlighted bit came across all 'anti-American' to some of you BMC guys. I am English after all.... )

I read that the greatest threat to craft brewing is not necessarily BMC, it's craft brewing competing against itself (a 3% marketshare) and realizing that they should focus on imports Like Heineken et al. (a 12% marketshare) that are similarly priced.

Firstly I am from Scotland and have seen the good things that CAMRA do. Full pint measures for one. Good beer festivals (I worked behind a bar once where there was 150 barrels racked up behind me - BURP). They may be a little snobby, but remember one thing - they are promoting beer, good beer. They review pubs and give them ratings (and take them away) therefore encouraging the quality supply of good beer. My local pub always had five ales on tap and was known as one of the best bars in Edinburgh (not biased at all!). John Leslies Bar in Causeway side if you are ever in Edinburgh

As for the fizzy pop drinkers, that is just the nature of the world, just let them do what they want to do as we are all entitled to our own opinion.

Beer. Ale. Stout. Lager. Whatever. It all comes down to wanting to drink it for the taste (and the buzz). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Which reminds me, they have calculated the beer goggle effect - check this out : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/4468884.stm

...or you can buy them : http://www.burtonwoodandholmes.com/urbanspectacles/beergoggles.htm

Boy,

I read this thread, all 51 previous posts.......

I think the word "Real" could have been substituted with "Original" and it would have conveyed the meaning that the CAMRA people wanted to get across.

I like the idea of maintaining tradition. I think snootiness won't sell the idea of cask fresh beer

The idea of freshness, possibly the lack of hangover will though. An emphasis on quality would go a long way too.

Hence the Rhinheitgebot Law.... I think this is why it was declared in the first place... ... for simple health reasons.

Mind you, bleeding was the cure for just about every thing back then... so take that with a grain of salt!!

Wow! I do not know how I missed this thread until now. What a great thread! I've sampled at least 83.7% of the content, more than enough to qualify as a significant sample. I also don't know how the mods haven't shut it down yet! Despite the fact that it has been quite civil throughout, it is definitely not without political overtones.

This reminded me of a soap opera or a novella when I read it, so here's my critique:

The speakers I enjoyed the most were Evan! (at least 91% a man of my mind, if not more), Torchiest (85% a man of my mind), Sonvolt (*the* most unemotionally levelheaded, well-reasoned, and cogent of all significant speakers in this thread, congratulations sir), Fiery Sword (I disagree with much of your reasoning, but I like the way you say speak, and yes, you're probably 20% a man of my mind, which is quite a lot higher than the average person, uh, where did you get the idea that laws define freedom? Look that word up!), and BrewPastor (for the BMC rant... that is Real Rant, people!)

Oh, by the way, I think CAMRA is a great organization because it seeks to preserve something that is worth preserving, and was in continuing decline at the time the organization was formed. I don't agree that petitioning government is a particularly useful or productive thing to do, but the awareness CAMRA raises in the general public regarding the cause is surely a thing to be commended. I like real ale. Imaginary ale has never done a thing for me.

I thought the input from the Brits on this thread was especially relevant and provided much needed indigenous perspective. They live over yonder, after all, and it's nice to hear what the natives think. What did y'all think of us Americans flippin' out over your organizations (er, I mean, organisations)?

** CAVEAT ** I AM drunk, so gimme a break. I certainly hope I posting in the right thread.

** Uh ** Forgive me, o board (or is it bored)?, I know not what I babble.

Didn't read through this whole thread, but the fact that I am drinking from a pint glass that I got at the San Diego Real Ale Festival, thought I should comment. Maybe it was a sign for me to read all the posts, but I don't have the time.
I had a lot of good ("real ale") beer that day though.

beer4breakfast said:

...where did you get the idea that laws define freedom? Look that word up!)

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If I were one who only understood "freedom" by it's primary dictionary definition, I would also have to be one of those insufferable conspiracy-theorists who believe they live in a fully controlled society and that they are all just slaves to some overbearing government.

A safe definition to use is "the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints." By that simple measure, none of us are "free". There are always externally imposed restraints. And there should be. So that is where the simple definition of "freedom" falls short of how our day-to-day experience in a "free" society defines the word. The laws define what freedoms we have (speech, etc. etc. etc.) and don't have (crime, etc. etc. etc.). In that respect, the laws absolutely define freedom, and that is what I was referring to.

beer4breakfast said:

...you're probably 20% a man of my mind, which is quite a lot higher than the average person...

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I suppose I'll take that as a compliment, though I'm sure you think of youself at 100% man. And that, in my mind, is inherently contradictory.

Fiery Sword said:

I suppose I'll take that as a compliment, though I'm sure you think of youself at 100% man. And that, in my mind, is inherently contradictory.

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I think they mean that as "20% a man OF their mind", meaning they agree with you about 1/5 of the time.

I'm a member of CAMRA.

Real Ale is Cask Condtition Live Ale.

The difference between a "real" cask beer and a kegged beer is that kegged beer is usually clinically dead, yeast could not survive in it, needs CO2 to be forced into it to serve with a fizz and can looked after by a monkey.

Real/Cask ale is live, naturally carbonated, can be served from a hand pump direct from the cask without the need for C02 and it need skill and care to keep it and serve it correctly. It has nothing to do with the "Wood Cask"

I see real ale as ale that is not force carbonated and supper chilled like most of the chemical laden fizzy water stuff that is mass produced and mass marketed.

There's nothing snobbish about it at all. It's about getting good beer on tap in as many establishments as possible It does a wonderful job of supporting the people and companies in the industry who do a good Job. They help small breweries with investment and growth.
I'm not saying it does everything perfectly or pleases all of the people all of the time but it does a good job at what it tries out to do.

Need I say more?

Fiery Sword said:

If I were one who only understood "freedom" by it's primary dictionary definition, I would also have to be one of those insufferable conspiracy-theorists who believe they live in a fully controlled society and that they are all just slaves to some overbearing government.

A safe definition to use is "the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints." By that simple measure, none of us are "free". There are always externally imposed restraints. And there should be. So that is where the simple definition of "freedom" falls short of how our day-to-day experience in a "free" society defines the word. The laws define what freedoms we have (speech, etc. etc. etc.) and don't have (crime, etc. etc. etc.). In that respect, the laws absolutely define freedom, and that is what I was referring to.


I suppose I'll take that as a compliment, though I'm sure you think of youself at 100% man. And that, in my mind, is inherently contradictory.

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It almost sounds as though you regard freedom as a governmental policy decision. To say that freedom is defined by law is to say that slavery is the natural condition of mankind, and that freedom is a privilege granted to you by your rulers.

When I refer to freedom, I mean the exercise of one's free will over one's own property, an absence of interference by others with the exercise of one's free will. What do you think of that definition of freedom, and what do you call the condition you find yourself in when law places limits on that?

Law doesn't establish freedom. It destroys it. Your definition of freedom is an example of Orwellian doublespeak. It is a definition of freedom deliberately constructed to distort its true meaning. Why would someone do that? Why would someone buy that? Why would someone promote an ersatz freedom?

Moderator - The thread is being hijacked off subject again.

Stop with the political/legal/philosophy lesson. I'm not impressed. You are taking this all too seriously, especially if it has nothing to do with beer!

Try to stay with the original subject.

Why don't you email each other if you have to continue this...

You might be half-right in saying the we are straying from the subject, Schlenkerla, but this entire thread has been dabbling in politics and philosophy from the beginning. If it upsets you too much, don't take it out on the participants of the discussion. Just don't follow the thread.

Regardless, I totally disagree with your spin on my thoughts, beer4, but that's cool. We aren't always going to share similar beliefs! My idea of freedom is unchanged - and I honestly believe that rules (laws) are a fundamental means to an end when it comes to granting, and protecting, freedom. Laws can be downright horrific and wrong (slavery, as you mentioned) but we are free to fight to change them in an effort to have our laws reflect a more "true" freedom for our citizens.

(And this is on topic as it is related to the evolution of this discussion when it came to the German/Bavarian beer laws and how they tried to define what "real" beer was. CAMRA is all politics, all philosophy, so it should be no surprise that this thread is. As to you not being impressed, Schlenkerla, thanks for the constructive input. )

I've been watching this one. It's been close to being shut down a couple times, but there is a good CAMRA argument going on in here... somewhere.

Fiery Sword said:

You might be half-right in saying the we are straying from the subject, Schlenkerla, but this entire thread has been dabbling in politics and philosophy from the beginning. If it upsets you too much, don't take it out on the participants of the discussion. Just don't follow the thread.

(And this is on topic as it is related to the evolution of this discussion when it came to the German/Bavarian beer laws and how they tried to define what "real" beer was. CAMRA is all politics, all philosophy, so it should be no surprise that this thread is. As to you not being impressed, Schlenkerla, thanks for the constructive input. )

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Fiery Sword - I liked reading this thread. Thanks for starting this out.

It steemed to start going to a point where a couple people where trying "Out Do" the other in the posts. (An eye for an eye kind of thing) Also, some of what is being said is more like a belief rather than an idea. As you probably know beliefs are near impossible to change verses ideas. So why bother?

I was not tryng to take it out on anyone. Just alittle annoyed on the one-up-manship going on. That's all. Just me being cranky.

Getting off track isn't bad as long as it doesn't go overboard. Cheers!!

Fiery Sword - I finally went to the website. I don't know how this group is all politics, but as for philosophy I definately agree.

This is what is on the "About Us Page"

CAMRA campaigns for real ale, real pubs and consumer rights. We are an independent, voluntary organisation with 80,000 members and have been described as the most successful consumer group in Europe. CAMRA promotes good-quality real ale and pubs, as well as acting as the consumer's champion in relation to the UK and European beer and drinks industry. We aim to:


1) Protect and improve consumer rights
2) Promote quality, choice and value for money
3) Support the public house as a focus of community life
4) Campaign for greater appreciation of traditional beers, ciders and perries as part of our national heritage and culture
5) Seek improvements in all licensed premises and throughout the brewing industry​

I would say they are part; consumer advocates, historical society, and a professional society.

What's the political connection other than peddling some form of influence? Are they a PAC?