Interesting experiment - to Start or not to Start?

A friend and I are brewing up 10 gallons of a bock (one of Jamil's recipes, from BCS) this weekend, to be fermented in two separate vessels.

My friend is less than convinced of the necessity for starters. Myself, I've read a TON of HBT'ers as well as Jamil's work suggesting great benefits, but I've got only limited experience with them (plus, the only lager I've done so far was low gravity and fermented with a big packet of S-23 dry yeast). So I proposed the following experiment, which we're going to try out:

Into his ferementer, we're going to pitch only one packet of Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager (the single packet was his choice, as he's successfully fermented lagers like this before)

Into mine, I'll be pitching an appropriately sized starter (figured using mrmalty's calculator).

I'm pretty damn certain that I'll be seeing activity in my fermenter before we see it in his. Other than that, I'll be really interested to see what differences we see in the final product.

stratslinger said:

A friend and I are brewing up 10 gallons of a bock (one of Jamil's recipes, from BCS) this weekend, to be fermented in two separate vessels.

My friend is less than convinced of the necessity for starters. Myself, I've read a TON of HBT'ers as well as Jamil's work suggesting great benefits, but I've got only limited experience with them (plus, the only lager I've done so far was low gravity and fermented with a big packet of S-23 dry yeast). So I proposed the following experiment, which we're going to try out:

Into his ferementer, we're going to pitch only one packet of Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager (the single packet was his choice, as he's successfully fermented lagers like this before)

Into mine, I'll be pitching an appropriately sized starter (figured using mrmalty's calculator).

I'm pretty damn certain that I'll be seeing activity in my fermenter before we see it in his. Other than that, I'll be really interested to see what differences we see in the final product.

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Sounds good but make certain fermentation temperatures are the same, hopefully you can put them both in the same area, pitch at the same time, oxygenate them both the same, etc, etc. There are numerous other factors that affect fermentation and some of them are completely out of our control, such as barometric pressure, moon phase, vibrations, etc.

COLObrewer said:

Sounds good but make certain fermentation temperatures are the same, hopefully you can put them both in the same area, pitch at the same time, oxygenate them both the same, etc, etc. There are numerous other factors that affect fermentation and some of them are completely out of our control, such as barometric pressure, moon phase, vibrations, etc.

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Agreed! Let us know how it goes!

What's the anticipated OG of this brew? And yeah like COLObrewer said try to keep the conditions as close as possible, I would be interested in the results.

OG should be around 1.070. I'm actually a little concerned about his, as mrmalty (and Jamil's book, which makes sense since they're both the same source really) suggest that his single pack will be underpitching by around 80%. But he's confident his will be OK, and I'm just plain curious to see the differences.

And yeah, we're taking pains to keep as much the same as possible. We'll be brewing at his place (I think) but putting both fermenters in my ferement chamber (about a 20 minute ride away), which should keep them at the same temps and conditions and such. I figure I'll let the starter rip at my place, we'll smack his smack pack at his, then I'll pitch both at my place as I put them in the chamber.

The only thing I'm a little bit unsure of is the starter timeframe - I'm not giving myself much time for a 2 gallon starter here. Looks like I'll be brewing it up tomorrow night, letting it go until sometime late Saturday, then cold-crashing and decanting off (hopefully dumping any off flavors from the warm lager fermentation) on Sunday.

Well, after a couple delays, we managed to brew this up last night. Good brew night, our efficiencies were somewhere north of 70 (I've yet to calculate them - maybe I'll do so over the weekend).

My first real experimental observation came this morning - we pitched his smack pack last night around 10PM (a little before I left his place with our fermenters), and pitched my starter closer to 11PM. I checked them out this morning, his (no starter) has no visible signs of activity yet, while mine is already blowing off like mad.

I'm slightly nervous that this is going to lead to some other difficulties; at this rate, both beers are likely going to be ready for a diacetyl rest at different times, and I'm not quite sure how to handle that with my ferment chamber...

I'll report more as I observe more.

Latest update:

So, if we judge by lag time and lag time alone, the starter clearly "wins" here. As stated previously, the batch with the starter took off to the point of blowing off through the airlock in something less than 7 hours. The batch with only a single smack-pack pitched took just over 72 hours to finally show a real krausen - when I last checked it last night, I saw a ring of tiny bubbles that I was hoping was the start of a krausen. Checked again this morning, full blown krausen, finally!

This, honestly, is enough to sell me on continuing to do starters for lagers... I've not had a brew lag that much before, and the only thing keeping me from panicking (or from panicking my buddy) is all the posts here about some beers lagging up to 72 hours... I wasn't much a fan of all that waiting, and my beer has 3 days of fermenting done already while his is just getting started. In the scheme of things, I suppose 3 days isn't much when talking about lagers, but it's still a difference.

Also, I just finally ran our numbers through an efficiency calculator (the one right here). Since this bock had a larger grain bill than we could get into either of our mash tuns (we both have the 10gallon round coolers, and this full batch called for over 10 gallons of strike water!), we mashed and sparged separately and then combined the two worts at boil time. And, since our tuns differ a little bit, we used different techniques. He fly sparges, I batch sparge. I hit 74% efficiency, which I was really pleased with (literally my 3rd time mashing on my own gear). He hit 82%. Not bad at all!!!

stratslinger said:

. . . . . , I suppose 3 days isn't much when talking about lagers, . . . . . !!!

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This is true, but only if it makes no difference through quaffing, please keep this experiment going and let us know the final outcome. Make note of any and all differences you percieve.

stratslinger said:

I'm slightly nervous that this is going to lead to some other difficulties; at this rate, both beers are likely going to be ready for a diacetyl rest at different times, and I'm not quite sure how to handle that with my ferment chamber...

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I wouldn't worry too much about the diacetyl rest. I know lots of places recommend something like 65 F but I've had good luck just taking the fermentor out of my fridge and letting it sit on the floor at room temperature (72ish). That way you won't have to worry about controlling the higher temp of the rest and the normal fermentation temperature at the same time. Just make sure you also put your friends beer on the floor at room temperature when it's time for his diacetyl rest.

I would think the real benefit doing starters is to reduce lag time meaning that the yeast get started before other microbial organisms can get a real foothold and affect the flavor of the finished product.

Another benefit is that when yeast are pitched at the correct rate (or in the correct rate range), there is the least amount of stress on the yeast and in turn they produce the least amounts of compounds that would be considered off-flavors and the most amounts of flavor compounds that we're looking for.

One of the best beers I ever had was my own pale ale where I used a starter with yeast nutrient for the first time. Fermentation started in 4-6 hours, lasted three days, blew kreusen all down the side of my 6.5 carboy, conditioned for two weeks, kegged and carb'd, and blew my mind.

Yeah, about the best explanation for the utility of starters came from someone on HBT, and basically boiled down to this:

During the reproductive phase of yeast growth, when yeast is getting up to the proper concentration to ferment your beer, a lot of compounds are formed that cause off-flavors. By pitching the appropriate amount of yeast (either via starter or just using enough smack packs / vials / packets of dry yeast), you dramatically reduce the duration of that reproductive phase, thus dramatically reducing the amoung of those compounds that go into your beer in the first place.

Now, in some cases, you may want those compounds... I just did a Wiezenbock, and the guy at the LHBS recommended I underpitch a little, as those compounds from the yeast I was using would contribute to bananna-y and clove-y esters that work well for that style. Other beers really demand less of a yeast presence, so pitching less than the optimal rates isn't so beneficial and, in some cases, is harmful to the final product.

OK brief update:

Last night, we both transferred our shares to secondary for lagering. We both plan to lager for 1 month, around 38-40F, and then see what we've got.

What I can tell this far: as of early last week, they both hit the high 1.020's (projected FG was 1.017), and they were showing some signs of diacetyl (I didn't pick it up very much in the flavor, but it definitely left a kind of oily feeling that clung to the inside of my mouth), so I gave them a few warmer days to clean up and finish up. As of last night, we did sample a little bit of mine (with starter), and it was delicious. For whatever reason, we completely failed to take a sample of his to taste at this stage...

So, another month, and they'll go on the gas - I figure right around mid December we should be able to make our first real comparison. Which should coincide with my birthday, so that could be quite the gift!

Another quick update:

The conclusion to this experiment is, perhaps, just around the corner.

I put my Bock on the gas a little sooner than planned, but only a 4oz sample or three have managed to leak out of the keg so far. Taken on its own, it's very sweet. Almost unbalanced-ly so. But sampled along with something else a little sweet, it seems to even out nicely.

My buddy's is also carbonated now, and he's so far a bit displeased with his results. I'll be at his place for dinner tomorrow, with a couple bottles of my Bock in tow for a side-by-side comparispon.

At this point though, we are looking at a rather big bock with only 6 weeks or so worth of lagering - after tomorrow we may both wind up putting ours away to lager for another month before checking them out again. But once we've had a chance to sample them side-by-side, I'll post results here for anyone who's still curious.

OK, call our results slightly less than conclusive...

We tasted the two side-by-side Friday evening and, sadly, realized one other process that we performed differently between the two beers that could contribute to differences between the two: due to space constraints, I lagered in the corny I'm currently serving the starter half from, while my partner lagered in a better bottle then racked to his corny after a month in the fridge.

First, mainly aesthetic impressions:
- Mine (team starter) appeared to be better carbonated, which could have been due to different gas settings or the fact that mine's been on the gas a little longer than his. Not a significant difference, and certainly not something we could attribute to the starter / non starter variable
- Mine still is a bit cloudy, while his (team single smack pack) is nearly crystal clear (well, as clear as a copper-colored Bock can be). This _could_ be due to the starter, since mine would have started off with far more yeast and could, in theory, have had excess yeast that hasn't floculated out. However, I suspect it's more due to the fact that he lagered in a better bottle and THEN racked to a corny. For future lagers, I intend to find/make the room to emulate his process.
- Both display a strong, very pleasant, malty aroma. Right on with the BJCP guidelines.

Now, the important: the taste:
- Mine was big and sweet (as above, it seems almost unbalanced in its sweetness until you pair it up with a food that has some of its own sweetness). The BJCP guidelines call for a complex maltiness - not sure I'd call mine complex or not. No real toasty flavors to speak of, but definitely a nice caramelly flavor. And definitely no sign of diacetyl (this beer definitely needed a D-rest, and it turned out to be quite effective!)
- His was similar, but I think there was something a little more complex to it. Maybe what I was picking up was toasty notes, maybe it was something else - I just couldn't put a finger on it. To be honest, I think it seemed slightly more balanced than mine did.

Overall impressions:
Three of us tasted the beers side-by-side: SWMBO, my brewing partner, and myself.
SWMBO feels that mine is more of a "desert beer," while my partner's was something you could drink with a meal more easily. She wouldn't say which she preferred, but I think she was leaning towards team no-starter, to be honest.
My brewing partner really doesn't like something in the finish of his (I was unable to pick this up), and prefers mine over his. Consider him a starter convert - at least for lagers, if nothing else!
As for me... It's hard to say. As I've repeated a couple times, I think mine benefits from a good food pairing (had a little with a honey-chipotle salmon last week and it was FANTASTIC!), but for just sitting around drinking a pint, I like the non-starter version better.

I think I'm going to be taking my bock off its tap for a little while - going to get a log of something a little more friendly to the non-craft brew crowd for X-Mas entertaining - and give it some more time to lager. If I note any significant changes, I'll note them here. I think we'll also be repeating the tasting with our brew club in January, so I may have some notes from those tasters to add. But at this point, I'm kind of sad to say, the result of this particular test is something of a shoulder shrug... It's clearly not a slam-dunk either way so far.