Very slow start... what to do?

Just put together my first batch of mead on Saturday morning. 2 gal of Orange Blossom Mead OG 1.111. The LHBS was out of any liquid mead yeast so they recommended WLP727 (Steinberg), and said I wouldn't need a starter considering it was only a 2 gal batch. So I just pitched that one little vial...

BUT, now this thing is doing nothing whatsoever - no signs of fermentation at all, after 48 hours of so.

Should I rehydrate and pitch a packet of 71b-1122 that I have in the fridge???

You may just have a long lag phase due to pitching the vial. What temp are you maintaining?

I'd aerate it really well and give it a little more time.

Medsen

Keeping it at 68 right now. I had aerated really well when I pitched. Not sure how long mead yeast types take to get going, and I'm so used to my beers taking off within 12 hours at that temp.

If nothing has happened in a week, re-pitch.

I was just worried about something else taking hold in there since the yeast doesn't appear to be taking care of business. I'll RDWHAHB.

Do mead fermentations make a lot of noise, so to speak, or are they pretty anti-climactic?

There not nearly as active as beer in most cases. I'd open it up and aerate it again to give them a boost and see if that gets them moving. If it remains quiet, letting it warm up a few degrees may speed them up.

Houston, we have lift off! Starting to get a very fine froth on top and the bubbles that were in the airlock have shifted - I'm guessing at least one bubble came out!

Ok yes definitely just saw a bubble come out... Amazing what can excite me in brewing.

I've had meads explode with fermentation. I didn't see you say anything about nutrient, did you add any or use the staggered nutrient addition schedule on the sticky on the Mead forum? Definitely something to look into for next time!

PJford15 said:

I've had meads explode with fermentation. I didn't see you say anything about nutrient, did you add any or use the staggered nutrient addition schedule on the sticky on the Mead forum? Definitely something to look into for next time!

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I didn't see the sticky, but I did put 2 grams of Fermaid K in there, and 2 grams of Go Ferm (I think that was about 1/2 tsp of each). Wasn't sure which one to go with so I figured both... Should I put more nutrient in as it ferments, or did I already put in too much?


Edit: Checked out the sticky info on nutrients, and see that Go Ferm is only supposed to be used during rehydration of dry yeast. Oops.

Ok just checked out the sticky, and I could do the progressive nutrient + DAP additions, given what I put in there at inoculation. I didn't put any DAP in originally, so oh well, I can add some now. Gonna check the brix and go forth with that plan.

Is there any harm in adding a little bit too much nutrient? I assume there probably is if it's way too much, but I'm talking just a couple grams?

Edit: Brix has only dropped 0.4. Think I'll wait until tomorrow, would be helpful to hear what you think about whether I should go ahead and use the staggered nutrient schedule with this batch. I have both Fermaid K and DAP on hand.

Thanks!

If it were me I would go ahead and add nutrient according to the staggered schedule since fermentation has started. However, a more experienced meadmaker may contradict me if I'm wrong!

And be sure to aerate it to promote yeast growth at least once or twice.

Ok thanks everyone! Aerating and adding the nutrients according to schedule.

Is "aerating" effectively just giving the must a shakety shake with the purpose of giving our yeasty friends something to breathe?

If so, why are we also encouraged to degas [does anyone else always read that as "daygar" - ala artiste!?]? Is the aerating (shaking?) done only after adding the yeast and/or nutrient and degassing (attacking with spinny thing?) done daily during the primary?

Total brewbie as you can probably tell so I might well be using some terms incorrectly. Is there a glossary somewhere on this sprawling forum for beginners? I've been reading the mead section for a while and it's starting to sink in but I'm still a bit hazy on some definitions.

Sorry for the hijack - I'm a bit of a thread cuckoo.

Every time I see the word "degas" I think "ballerinas".

Aerating is the process of introducing air into the must. It is necessary so that yeast get exposure to oxygen which causes increased sterol production in the cell membrane and allows for increased yeast growth and membranes that are more resistant to alcohol. The are many ways to aerate. Some folks keep the fermentation open without an airlock of lid. In other cases, people open the container and stir or swirl the mead, or they may use a de-gassing wand attached to a drill. I favor a whisk. Some people use airstones and a small pump, while a few will actually use oxygen through an airstone. Opening and shaking will work, but Mead Eruption Accidents (MEAs) are possible.

Whatever the method, if you don't aerate, you run the risk of incomplete fermentations will less total sugar fermented, and less alcohol produced. The bigger question is how much do you need to aerate. There have been no studies with meads that I am aware of, and many will recommend aeration at least once daily during the first 1/3 of fermentation. That is probably more than is required.

In studies of wine, yeast need about 10 mg/L of oxygen to achieve maximal fermentation. A complete saturation of the must with air provides about 8 mg/L of oxygen. So 1 or 2 good aerations after the start of fermentation (ideally at about 48 hours) should be enough to allow the yeast to achieve complete fermentation. Does aerating more cause harm? It hasn't been studied, but experience suggests that it doesn't seem to damage the final product as many award winning meads have been well aerated (and even open fermented).

I hope that helps.

Medsen

So "aerating" and "degassing" are the same process? That makes more sense now (though the terminology implies one is putting air in and one is taking it out!).

Future attempts at meadification will involve aerating. Cheers.

RedCabbage said:

So "aerating" and "degassing" are the same process?

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No. Aerating is the mixing in of air. Degassing is the process of getting dissolved CO2 out of solution so the mead won't be fizzy. However when you stir, swirl or shake, to aerate, some degassing will occur, and it can be be vigorous enough to cause the MEAs.

Nevertheless, degassing is mostly about getting rid of the dissolved CO2 after fermentation is finished. At that point, you don't want to mix air in, so you may use a different approach that minimizes air exposure. In my case, I will usually swirl the mead while keeping it under airlock, and letting it sit at room temp for some weeks. Like a bottle of soda pop that you leave open on the counter, it doesn't take all that long for it to become flat. Now other folks may use different ways of doing it including, using a vacuum pump, or a degassing whip attached to a drill. I don't like the drill approach because that entails opening the mead and allowing air to mixed in while you are stirring to release the CO2 (effectively the same thing you do with aeration), but many folks do this without problems.

There are some who encourage vigorous degassing during fermentation with the thought that CO2 is toxic to yeast, and degassing allows the fermentation to proceed more rapidly. Since the CO2 is only at one atmosphere of pressure, and you have to get above 7 atmosphere of pressure to significantly impede the yeast, I don't think this is true and I would ask anyone that has any data demonstrating active degassing having a beneficial effect on fermentation to please share it with us.

There is data that swirling the yeast to keep them up in suspension, or having particulate matter that functions in the same way will both allow fermentations to finish a little faster. I typically keep the fermentation under airlock and swirl it a couple of time each day to keep the yeast stirred up. That produces some degassing, which is okay. Truthfully, I haven't seen that swirling makes much difference as the fermentations generally finish about as quick either way.

So I generally don't spend time worrying about degassing. It will happen as my meads sit at room temp for a spell and get racked a couple of times. After that, they are nice and still with minimal effort. However, if you want to get something clear and bottled faster, active degassing after fermentation will speed you along, especially if you are keeping them in a cool storage area.

Medsen

Oh, I see. I was confused by your reference to using a degassing wand to aerate. And the physical process for both seems to often be to agitate the brew. It seems quite strange that one might want to both increase the amount of air and decrease it during primary fermentation, but, from what you are saying, a perfectly acceptable method is to whisk the must after day 1 (while your bucket is open for the second stage nutrient, maybe) then do it again after day 2, then leave the primary to finish up (stirring every couple of days if I like to lift some yeast off the bottom), rack to an airlocked demijon and leave it at room temperature swilling it every few days until it clears (maybe racking again if the gunk gets too deep) before bottling.

Sorry for labouring the subject, I guess I'm trying to settle a process into my brain. I've skimmed through a whole load of meadmaking methods across the internet and not many of them have mentioned aerating or degassing. I suppose they are trying to keep them simple.

RedCabbage said:

rack to an airlocked demijon and leave it at room temperature swilling it every few days until it clears (maybe racking again if the gunk gets too deep) before bottling.

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I'd change that to read "swirling every few days until it stops releasing CO2 bubbles. Then let it sit (maybe in a cold place) until clear, racking every few months until it stops dropping lees."

But yeah, that process will work (along with many other variations).

So, coming from a beer background, aerating during fermentation is BAD. It causes oxidation. So mead is different in that respect? Oxidation ok during fermentation?

Frodo said:

So, coming from a beer background, aerating during fermentation is BAD. It causes oxidation. So mead is different in that respect? Oxidation ok during fermentation?

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There is a big difference. For Beer, aeration after pitching is generally not a good thing, though in the case of high gravity batches and barley wines, a little aeration will help them get done completely as well.

Meads aren't full of hops and don't suffer damage from oxidation nearly as rapidly. They even tend to be less prone to oxidative damage than wines. So aeration during active fermentation won't cause harm. Even after fermentation is finished, meads tend to be much less oxidation prone, but it can be done (speaking from first-hand experience), so it is best to prevent exposure to air/oxygen by careful racking, and keeping containers topped up.

Medsen

That's definitely good to know! Thanks much.

MedsenFey said:

Even after fermentation is finished, meads tend to be much less oxidation prone, but it can be done (speaking from first-hand experience), so it is best to prevent exposure to air/oxygen by careful racking, and keeping containers topped up.

Medsen

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You are right about that, MedsenFey. A couple of years back I did a Hibiscus Mead that started out a beautiful ruby red, but after oxidation the ruby turned into a golden liquid. Tastes wonderful, but just not what I or my guests are expecting.

Well I checked the brix again last night... it stalled out immediately; brix has only dropped from 26 to 24. I aerated by shaking the carboy again. Probably will be repitching tonight with rehydrated (with GoFerm too) 71b-1122 unless I hear something which will change my mind...

One of the most common causes for this sort of problem is an extreme drop in the pH (usually to a level below 3.0). If you can check the pH, and find that it is low, correcting the pH may allow the yeast to get going again with pitching more. If it is not the pH, then pitching another yeast is probably a good idea.

71B is not a yeast that is particularly good at restarts, but given that your ABV is still quite low, it may be possible. I'd suggest acclimating the yeast to the must per hightest's instruction on the sticky at the top of the mead section, as that will improve the odds of success. Keep in mind that if the pH is really low, the 71B will likely be stalled too, and at that point you either need to correct pH or try a yeast that can tolerate harsh conditions better (like Uvaferm 43 or EC-1118).

Endeavor to persevere!

Medsen

I can probably pick up some pH strips for that range - if it's below 3.0, I add CaCO3 a.k.a. chalk?

For that process, do I add something like 1/2 tsp, shake carboy, test pH, if still below 3.0 repeat? Is 3.0 my target pH or should I bring it up to more like 3.5 for example?

And then do I still need to repitch some yeast due to the Steinberg being dead, or are they just dormant and will wake up once the pH is higher?

Thanks of all the help!

I like potassium bicarbonate better than calcium carbonate, the potassium helps the yeast offset the effects of the low pH. It is also easier to dissolve into solution.

1/2 tsp is a reasonable start as the goal is to go up slowly without overshoot. There really is no hurry as spoilage organisms are a non-issue with a pH that's below 3.0. I'd aim to get the pH above 3.2 (usually I try for about 3.4). When you mix in the carbonates (especially the calcium which can take a while to dissolve) it can take a few hours to equilibrate completely, so once you get up to 3.2 you may want to leave it alone for a couple of hours then come back an check before you add more.

Usually, correcting the pH will allow the yeast that are in there already to get going again and you don't have to pitch more in most cases.

Medsen

Status update:

On Nov 3, I tested the pH and it was 3.4.

Since it had stalled and I was feeling pretty desperate to get it going, I pulled about 1/4 gallon out of the fermenter, put it in a blender with 1/2 tsp KHCO3 to aerate it (and making a mess on the counter in the process). I put this back in the fermenter, shook it up a bit, grabbed another 1/4 gallon and put that in the blender for a bit to aerate it even more. Then finally I started seeing just a few bubbles coming out of the airlock, and it's been like that for the past week. Just checked the brix again and it's at 19.8, SG (calc) is 1.063. So it's apparently coming along, finally.

I know I asked this before, but is this typical, or at least not wholly unusual, for a mead to go this slowly? Should I keep de-gassing it or aerating it? I haven't shaken or swirled the carboy too much for about a week, but once in a while I'll give it a little swirl and gas comes out of solution. I also need to do another nutrient addition I image, Si?

Thanks for the help! I'm feeling much better about this mead now. On the other hand I made an English Barley Wine on Sunday and it's already down to SG 1.026 close to it's expected FG and the tiny sample I took tasted delicious already - so that's helping keep my spirits up.

Another status update. She's at 1.009 and has been starting to clear over the last week or so. 92% attenuation. Not transparent and looks like lemonade. Drinking the sample right now, and it's kinda harsh but tastes a bit like mead! Thanks for the help. Should I expect it to clear completely?

Yes, it'll clear on it's own in time, crystal clear. Mead takes a while & the Steinberg strain ferments low & slow. Just give it more time. Regards, GF.

Another update coming up on almost 3 months since pitching. Racked to two 1 gallon jugs. FG is 1.001 - I assume that's as low as it'll go. Taste is a little bit harsh but really pretty nice with some sweetness, clarity is pretty good though I disturbed the yeast quite a bit when I racked. And this stuff is potent!