What's with the BIAB fan boys?

There are lots of ways to skin the brewing cat and most of them are represented on here.

It seems like most of the people on here are pretty open minded about different ways to do things, except the BIAB crowd. Ok now that I think about it maybe there is a general lack of open minded-ness but the BIAB crowd seems to be the most vocal. Why is it that in any thread someone posts asking about their process the answer from this crowd is always "you should be BIAB"?

Because most people asking questions here are new(er) to brewing and BIAB is an easy technique that requires little investment in equipment for all grain brewing.

I think they are just overly excited about finding a way to brew all grain without adding any additional equipment. It's that ah ha moment that gets them from extract to all grain and it seems so easy that most people think anyone can do it. For the most part they are right. The average Joe brewing extract can switch to all grain for the cost of a piece of fabric.

I'm not going to knock BIAB as I too took that path on my journey to where I am today and it made some mighty fine beer. However, for me, BIAB was too messy and I had a hard time holding my mash temp right where I wanted it.

I don't think it's the final solution but it is a nice step along the way. I think the "encouragement" they provide to advance past extract is for the most part good advice.

I haven't noticed this, but if so, I hope it isn't true. Everyone should do the research and decide what will work best for them.

Maybe what some of the people were trying to say is that the transition from extract to a partial mash or all-grain can be easier using the BIAB process. To do it in the simplest way requires almost no extra equipment. You already have a pot and just need a disposable paint strainer bag to get started.

The other side of this discussion is that all methods get more complicated (mostly because of moving liquid around) when larger batches and higher ABV beers come into play.

Warning I am a BIAB brewer.

I think lately there has been a lot of questions about BIAB and thus threads.
I started doing BIAB because it was almost no investment to make the jump to it other then a bag which I got Mom to sew up for me( in return for cooking her a nice dinner). When someone wants to make the jump but is hesitant to go RIMS or any other technique I don't see the big deal in letting them know about this fairly simple technique that requires almost no equipment. For me it makes sense since I am not someone who is going to be brewing 10gal batches, I just don't drink enough beer to make it worth while, I like 1.5-3 gal batches which BIAB fits perfectly.

Which forums are you haunting? I've not seen an overly vocal BIAB sentiment, but perhaps I'm not visiting the same threads as you are.

dont be confused. This is not knock on BIAB...just a comment on the zealousness of BIAB'ers. Personally I didn't use BIAB as a way to get into AG. I figured if I was going to spend time getting good at BIAB instead of batch sparging then why use it as an intermediary step and waste time building knowledge that wouldn't be applicable to my end goal. With that being said, I totally understand people who arrive at BIAB and decide to go no further.

The Speideil Braumeister is obviously quite the vote of confidence in the process.

There are a lot of different ways to brew beer.Everyone has to figure what works for them. BIAB is a good, easy, cheap way to try all grain without a big investment. If you find it works for you great, if you decide you want to go the more traditional route, that is fine too. It is all about what process works for you and makes good beer.

I do not notice an overly zealous BIAB crowd, but mostly they make the suggestion to try BIAB as an easy entry into all grain.. What I find more annoying is when someone asks a bottling question and one of the first responses is "you should keg"

It's not that BIAB people aren't as open minded, it's just BIAB is BIAB....it is a SPECIFIC technique....it is by nature limited in options - there just isn't much flexibility there. There aren't 20 different sparge methods and mash procedures, etc. However, what it lacks in flexibility, it more than makes up for in convenience and simplicity.

BIAB is a Honda Civic DX with roll up windows and cloth interior. If your point is to make it from point A to point B as economically as possible, i.e. make good beer as economically as possible, it's probably the one for you. Traditional AG brewing is more like an Accord LX with heated seats, power windows, leather interior, power seats, and a navigation system. You have more flexibility, and you like to have more control over your overall experience and more options, and if it costs a bit more $$$ and a bit more time to have more than just reliable transportation, it is worth it to you.

Traditional AG brewing is extremely flexible with hundreds of options developed over several thousand years of brewing. It is by nature extremely flexible with lots of differing techiques and procedures all falling under a generic title.

BIAB is one unified technique, just like batch sparging is one technique and fly sparging is another. That makes it a little unfair to call BIAB close minded, it just isn't developed beyond a few basic options, so it is by nature limited and unflexible. I can still make commercial quality beer in an hour less time than the traditional AG brewers in my club, and haul about 1/3 of the equipment to group brews. They can still pull off a begian quad or barleywine that I would never even attempt with a full volume BIAB.

In my brewclub of about 100 members, we have about 30% BIAB brewers (including me), about 30% extract brewers, and about 40% traditional three-vessel AG brewers.

The BIAB brewers are definitely trending upwards, but just at a creep, not rapidly. When a non-brewer or newbie brewer comes to our group brew days, we make a point to explain everyone's unique systems and techniques. When the extract brewers move to AG, about 1/2 of them are choosing BIAB, and about 1/2 of them are going to traditional three-vessel AG.

I would venture to say the "laid back" brewers typically head to BIAB, while the "detailed" (<--anal..lol) brewers head to traditional three-vessel AG.

All that said, I honestly think BIAB offers the oppertunity for the more casual brewer to move to AG and stick with brewing long term. If the actual numbers were available, I bet they would show that the trends of traditional AG brewers hasn't really changed much, i.e., people aren't choosing BIAB OVER traditional AG, but MORE people are getting into AG brewing overall thanks to BIAB.

In my mind, it is a WIN/WIN for the homebrewing community!

BIAB ought to be exciting to new brewers. It's a VERY cheap way to experience AG brewing. For a couple of dollars anyone curious about creating wort from grains can give it a try. It's especially handy for people who do smaller batches.

I personally haven't seen too many posts saying everyone should do BIAB, but it makes sense to suggest it to extract or PM brewers who want to try a full mash brew without investing in a mash tun.

I've been AG for a while, but even I gave BIAB a try and sometimes still use it for the rare small batch in the kitchen during the deep cold of winter. It's a valid technique and the downsides are mostly related to convenience IMO.

Xpertskir said:

There are lots of ways to skin the brewing cat and most of them are represented on here.

It seems like most of the people on here are pretty open minded about different ways to do things, except the BIAB crowd. Ok now that I think about it maybe there is a general lack of open minded-ness but the BIAB crowd seems to be the most vocal. Why is it that in any thread someone posts asking about their process the answer from this crowd is always "you should be BIAB"?

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I've noticed the same thing, in fact I've been WAITING for someone else to comment on that phenomenon...it's exactly the same as the over-zealous keggers who think the answer to every question about bottling is "keg."

I think really it is just that...overzealousness/excitement. Ive done both. I still prefer my trusty cooler. But I don't jump into every ag thread and say "cooler." I've even talked about BIA as an option.

The big thing about it is that it has made AG brewing more accessible than even the leap from oven/zap a pap to cooler mash tuns. So it's got a lot of adherents, and new converts to ANYTHING can be annoyingly forward in their attempt to convert people to their bandwagon.

But yeah, it does get to be a bit much sometimes.

Anytime you use "always" in a characterization, you're wrong before you get out of the gate.

I see the opposite of the OP's premise: lots of people treat BIAB as an intermediate step before 'real' AG brewing. But why? Is it possible that old-school AG brewers, once invested in their setup costs and process, will resist the notion that something simpler, cheaper, and faster is just as good? Ever hear of confirmation bias?

If I have no desire to brew 10-gallon batches, big beers (over say 1.060), and my efficiency is just fine with a finer crush, what possible argument is there to invest the time and money in a more complex setup that comes with it's own set of headaches (like stuck sparges) but does not produce better beer?

One man's "greater flexibility" is another's "needless cost and complexity".

Uh-O.. here we go!

The only thing I'd add is that it's important to me that people know BIAB is not just for the stovetop. 10% high gravity beers and large batches can indeed be brewed on BIAB.

That said, I feel no need to convert anyone...we are all making good beer.

It was not too long ago that the notion of full-volume, no-sparge BIAB was dismissed as not viable. "It won't clear, you will get low efficiency," etc. The early adopters had to be somewhat vociferous just to make the point that one can make great beer with that method. In that respect, it is very similar to the "long primary vs. secondary" argument, and the no-chill ("you will get botulism and die") argument. In each case empirical data dispelled closely held myth.

Brew your own brew, lol.

P.S. And I should add that I have made excellent high-gravity beer in a BIAB 15 gallon system.

Milan37 said:

I see the opposite of the OP's premise: lots of people treat BIAB as an intermediate step before 'real' AG brewing. But why? Is it possible that old-school AG brewers, once invested in their setup costs and process, will resist the notion that something simpler, cheaper, and faster is just as good? Ever hear of confirmation bias?

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Hmm, I don't recall seeing much of that. I usually see people recommending BIAB for people that are thinking about switching to AG but have worries about complexity or equipment costs - just like how people recommend a Corona Mill as opposed to nothing when someone simply can't afford a Barley Crusher or better.

From the tone of your post you seem defensive and how are your justifications to why you BIAB any different than the people you are claiming justify the traditional route?

Both methods are brewing. I would never ever tell someone to "step up" to "real AG brewing" from BIAB. They are both all grain methods of brewing. I could've started with BIAB but I chose the traditional route because the extra cost of the cooler, bazooka screen, and a vinyl draining tube wasn't at all an issue for me. I was also well aware of the differences between the two and for me the preferred route was the traditional way.

All of this is just personal choice. I haven't really seen much of what the OP mentions either but I've only started back on here now that my brewing season has begun again, but in the past I really mainly see people touting BIAB as a worry free way from someone to try their hand at AG.


Rev.

I'm not sure that I've seen zealotry from BIAB supporters around here. I do see much more talk about BIAB, probably because it is more accessible to more people because of the low/no equipment cost.

I'm probably going to be an example. I'm waiting for my first AG ingredients to arrive at the house now. I'll be brewing it BIAB because of cost of equpiment and to get familiar with the AG process. I may post mutiple times asking questions that are simply AG related but with have BIAB on the posts because that is the technique being used. Once I am comfortable with AG I'm sure I will step up to traditional AG with all of the equipment etc. At that point I doubt I will have much to ask so I might not post anything at all. Just my 2 cents.

Rev2010 said:

Hmm, I don't recall seeing much of that. I usually see people recommending BIAB for people that are thinking about switching to AG but have worries about complexity or equipment costs - just like how people recommend a Corona Mill as opposed to nothing when someone simply can't afford a Barley Crusher or better.

From the tone of your post you seem defensive and how are your justifications to why you BIAB any different than the people you are claiming justify the traditional route?

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See the post just below yours for an example (no offense to the poster, it's just an example of the idea that the trad method is a 'step up'). And that's really all I meant--not so much people being pushed to go the traditional method, more that it seems to be part of the zeitgeist here. But why is that?

And sorry, didn't mean to come off defensive--what I do (BIAB) works for me but I have no personal investment. If another method that produces better beer comes up I'll try it and if it works (including the cost/time part), I'll adopt it. I'll admit to some confirmation bias of my own (I'm human after all).

So to the OP, I don't see many BIAB v. Trad arguments here, from either side. The ones I have seen are always polite & even-handed. It's my opinion that there's no better way to break into AG than BIAB, and for many, there is no reason to add cost & complexity that doesn't improve the beer.

So, naturally, when people ask for recommendations others will share what has worked for them. You may be witnessing the beginning of something similar to what another poster mentioned, the "long primary vs rack to secondary" shift.

IMHO if there is more discussions here about BIAB its because there are more questions. I don't believe that necessarailly equates to more users of this method.

I see it advocated as a relatively cheap way to get into AG brewing. If you decide that BIAB is not for you, then you are out the cost of the bag and you can always go buy a cooler.

Yeah those BIABers are a radical bunch. You have to keep your eyes on them.

One thing I have noticed is BIAB posts denigrating the traditional method as useless expense. I am an extract/pm brewer as of now so I don't have any confirmation bias on this topic. I personally don't see the logic behind either sides critiques of the other. To me it is as illogical as saying all grain is superior to extract. Anyone can make great beer if they have proper techniques.

Do you guys have some links to these BIAB fanboy denigrations?

I think they are just a little over-exited by the BIAB thing. To be honest, I tried it once and it simply wasn't that fantastic, but hey if you like it - go for it.

aubiecat said:

Do you guys have some links to these BIAB fanboy denigrations?

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I already told the OP that when I come upon them in the future I'll post them here, so folks can see. You who BIAB probably don't even notice them or notice when they seem inappropriate. You don't see other types of AG brewers say "buy a cooler." or "build a Zap a Pap" And you rarely see these days on here someone other than a zealot say "go ag" but you do quite often see someone say something like "Biab it." Even if the Op is actually a simple question about an extract batch.

Since I probably read more threads than anyone, I see odd patterns show up all the time. An like I said, this is one I've noticed the last couple years.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the process, but there just seems to be a way that SOME Biabers interject an answer that can appear to others as over-eager.

But I bet now that the OP has pointed it out, you'll notice it more and more...though it may not be something you think is that big a deal, others might.

It seems like most AG brewing is moving away from the traditional methods towards more simplified processes -- not just at the homebrew level but even at the pro level. If you want to brew a five gallon batch and just do a single infusion -- or even a step mash -- BIAB is the easiest. It's readily accessible to both indoor and outdoor brewers. It doesn't involve fancy equipment or tools. Just two hands, a sack and a couple kettles. Look at the other newer techniques that favor abandoning more complex/time-consuming processes. No sparge over sparging, single infusions over decoction mashes (for some brews), batch sparging over fly sparging, flavors from specialty grain over process-produces flavors, primary-only over secondary, etc. It's just the evolution of the hobby towards more efficient options.

I'm A BIABer. I did it as way to get into all grain brewing.

I don't have a lot of disposable income or time in my life right now (work and kids). The less I have to purchase, and the less I have to clean the better.

I don't have anything negative to say about the traditional 3 vessel method. Some of the systems people have are incredible. For me, at this time, I will continue to use the KISS method of BIAB.

At some point I may convert try a Brutus 2.0 type system, maybe....

Chris

Who says you cannot do a high-gravity BIAB? 6 gallon batch of RIS, 26 lbs grain, 12 gal water, 15 gal pot.

@ReverseApacheMaster - you mentioned fancy tools. What's so fancy about a rubbermaid cooler and a length of vinyl hosing? Unless I'm forgetting something I don't see what else requires one to do traditional AG, that's what I'm using. I know you're probably talking about the more complex brew stand setups and such, HERMS, RIMS, etc but that isn't necessary to do AG the traditional way.

A lot of the argument I see against traditional AG is equipment but outside of a cooler with a spigot and some vinyl tubing to drain with I honestly don't know what extra gear all the fuss is about. And I think every household has regular pots lying around to use to heat the strike and sparge water. I use one pot for heating of water.

Rev.

You guys aren't getting what the OP and I are saying....you're all now defending BIAB or arguing point/counterpoint and turning the OP's observation into something different. You don't need to defend why you BIAB or any other method. We're not talking ABOUT THE METHOD....

We're talking about how some folks present "the method" in other threads.....

I initially thought the opposite of the original post. It seems to me that at first the traditional 3 vessel brewers poo-poo'd the BIABer. Low efficiency, thin mash (= bad), low gravity beers only, can't do 10 gallon BIAB, blah blah blah.... eventually you will move up to a traditional system....

So perhaps the BIABer felt the need to defend their position.

Personally, as long as your making great tasting beer and having fun, I don't care how you got there.

Chris

I get it. There is more than one way to all grain and BiaB isn't the only way or the "best" way. I keg and bottle too.

I love my 2 tier setup I built with my brew buddy. But I'll be moving soon and leaving that behind so I'll go BiaB until i can put together another stand. The point is that there are many ways to get to the same result when it comes to beer. And just because the way i do it is different doesn't mean its wrong or bad. Just don't go all gaga over your process and discount someone else.

Rev2010 said:

@ReverseApacheMaster - you mentioned fancy tools. What's so fancy about a rubbermaid cooler and a length of vinyl hosing? Unless I'm forgetting something I don't see what else requires one to do traditional AG, that's what I'm using. I know you're probably talking about the more complex brew stand setups and such, HERMS, RIMS, etc but that isn't necessary to do AG the traditional way.

A lot of the argument I see against traditional AG is equipment but outside of a cooler with a spigot and some vinyl tubing to drain with I honestly don't know what extra gear all the fuss is about. And I think every household has regular pots lying around to use to heat the strike and sparge water. I use one pot for heating of water.

Rev.

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Yeah I was speaking generally about the equipment from cooler to more elaborate set ups. A cooler isn't a "fancy tool" but it does require some modification. Not a lot but more than sticking grain in a bag and dropping it in hot water.

We know Revvy, but this is an open discussion forum and topics almost never stay perfectly on point. When someone mentions fancy tools for AG I just feel the need to ask what fancy tools we're referring to and I think it's on topic because I think maybe that belief is partly what's behind some of the responses the OP is referring to.


Rev.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a vocal group of BIABers on this site, as it makes sense for a large number of people that visit this site. Anyone who has spent any time on this board will tell you that there are a large number of novice brewers that post on this site, all you have to do is look for the basic questions on process (it's been 24 hours and my airlock isn't bubbling, is my beer ruined?). Because of the large number of novice brewers, there are a lot of questions on how to make "the jump" to all grain. Given that a lot of brewers don't stick with the hobby in the long run, it makes the most sense for BIAB to be a very attractive option, in order to allow novice brewers to go all grain without a larger investment.

Revvy said:

You guys aren't getting what the OP and I are saying....you're all now defending BIAB or arguing point/counterpoint and turning the OP's observation into something different. You don't need to defend why you BIAB or any other method. We're not talking ABOUT THE METHOD....

We're talking about how some folks present "the method" in other threads.....

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I think I heard my name being spoken......:cross:

Revvy said:

I already told the OP that when I come upon them in the future I'll post them here, so folks can see. You who BIAB probably don't even notice them or notice when they seem inappropriate. You don't see other types of AG brewers say "buy a cooler." or "build a Zap a Pap" And you rarely see these days on here someone other than a zealot say "go ag" but you do quite often see someone say something like "Biab it." Even if the Op is actually a simple question about an extract batch.

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Excellent. If I run across any I will do the same. I will like wise post those quotes from other types AG brewers that "you don't see".
I can attest to the fact that there are smart asses from every type of brewing technique.
I am not one of them and I don't care what style people use just as long as they make the beer they like and enjoy doing it. I don't like people that act like their way is the only way as much as I hate beer snobs.

usfmikeb said:

I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a vocal group of BIABers on this site, as it makes sense for a large number of people that visit this site. Anyone who has spent any time on this board will tell you that there are a large number of novice brewers that post on this site, all you have to do is look for the basic questions on process (it's been 24 hours and my airlock isn't bubbling, is my beer ruined?). Because of the large number of novice brewers, there are a lot of questions on how to make "the jump" to all grain. Given that a lot of brewers don't stick with the hobby in the long run, it makes the most sense for BIAB to be a very attractive option, in order to allow novice brewers to go all grain without a larger investment.

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I thought most novice brewers were extract brewers. I didn't know most novices were starting out with the BIAB technique.
Is that like saying people with signatures the size of the Wall Street Journal documenting every beer they have ever brewed have L.A.M.S.?

As others have said I think it's part excitement, part defense of process and part informational.

I'm a new brewer and 'discovered' BIAB on this forum (possibly in one of those fanboy threads mentioned).

I got really excited about after studying the process and wanted to share what I 'discovered' with any homebrewer who would listen - including the folks at the two LHBS nearby. Their response ranged from complete ignorance of the method to dismissing it & pointing out numerous 'shortcomings' of the process (that through my research seamed to contradict).

Even Brad Smith (of Brewsmith fame) seems to be a 'fanboy,' evidenced by his excellent BIAB presentation at this years conference in Seattle.

I like to try different methods, (I think this homebrewing thing is a blast!) and may pick up a cooler of some sort to convert, but is it as simple as adding a braided hose & valve? To brew with the cooler method don't you need three pcs of equipment (boil kettle, cooler and a second kettle for spare water?) or can you do it as simply as adding the cooler?

i went BIAB only due to economical issues.
i had priced traditional 3 vessel systems and no matter how I cut corners it wouldn't work for me $ wise.
i think all brewers should work together to help each other in the art & hobby regardless of what method folks embrace.
like when I ride my motorcycle ...i wave at everyone on two motored wheels,
it's about riding not what you ride........
let the barley do the talking, git yer brew on!!!:rockin:

GD51

I've noticed the same. I hate to make this analogy, but it reminds me a lot of the DOS boys back in the late 80's early 90's. They took great pride in being able to make their systems do what they wanted, and definitely carried an attitude of elitism and snobbery, which was ironic because their computers all sucked. I'm not saying your systems suck. I mean having a motorized pulley system bolted to the garage ceiling is a pretty serious investment. But it definitely doesn't give license for any kind of attitude, especially when I'm making beer at 80% efficiency with one 10 gallon kettle and a water cooler.