Thinking about converting...

from a single tiered propane to an all electric rig. But I need help...I'd like to do this as frugally as possible. I want to get away from propane for the obvious reasons and, since I just upgraded my service to 150 amp, I think this is the time. I actually think I can do it fairly cheaply, though I have a few major questions.

Right now, I've got a single tier 10-gallon propane fired keggle system. I also built a SS RIMS tube/element that I control with a single PID.

Here are my questions:
1. For the BK and HLT, I'm figuring on using one 5500 watt element @240v for each. I don't ever plan on having to heat strike water while boiling (or, at least not at this time), so I wouldn't have to have a dedicated controller for each. I'm planning on being able to simple unplug the HLT from the control box when I'm done mashing and plug it in to the BK, basically "sharing" the power between the two.

2. I would like to control the BK/HLT elements with a simple 240v toggle or rocker switch. No PID or LOVE controller necessary, since I already have thermometers installed on the BK and HLT. When they get hot enough (or too hot, in the case of the BK), I could just switch the element off using the toggle/rocker switch.

3. I already have the RIMS (120v) wired to an SSR and PID. Should I move it all into one project box, with two different power cords coming out of it (on for the 240v and one for the 120v), or should/can I figure a way to combine the 120v RIMS to the 240v power?

Any and all advice is welcome. I want to do this as cheaply as possible, but I also want to be safe. I know enough about electricity to be able to wire a 120v house, but the switch between 120 and 240 is a little confusing.

"1. For the BK and HLT, I'm figuring on using one 5500 watt element @240v for each. I don't ever plan on having to heat strike water while boiling (or, at least not at this time), so I wouldn't have to have a dedicated controller for each. I'm planning on being able to simple unplug the HLT from the control box when I'm done mashing and plug it in to the BK, basically "sharing" the power between the two. "

Have you considered ULWD or LWD (Ultra Low Watt Density, Low Watt Density) Elements, you will be less likely to caramelize wort with them...

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements

HenryVance3 said:

"1. For the BK and HLT, I'm figuring on using one 5500 watt element @240v for each. I don't ever plan on having to heat strike water while boiling (or, at least not at this time), so I wouldn't have to have a dedicated controller for each. I'm planning on being able to simple unplug the HLT from the control box when I'm done mashing and plug it in to the BK, basically "sharing" the power between the two. "

Have you considered ULWD or LWD (Ultra Low Watt Density, Low Watt Density) Elements, you will be less likely to caramelize wort with them...

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll probably go with a ULWD element if the price is comparable to the standard element. I have a ULWD in my RIMS tube, where it's much more important because of a.) possibility of being fired dry and b.) the small amount of wort passing through. When heating 13 gallons, though, a ULWD is really not necessary, since the wort is constantly moving in the kettle.

2. I think you will be switching on and off all the time.

1. Look into the diagrams that Kal uses at www.theelectricbrewery.com You can have outlets for 2 different elements built into your control panel and a switch to toggle between them without ever having to worry about firing both at once.

2. As mentioned above, a simple on/off toggle switch to control your elements would be annoying as hell IMO, Its worth the time and money to use a PID! They are only $40-50 dollars anyway and can be added to your control panel very easily. Plus, they will do a far better job at managing your temps then you could do manually.

3. Read through Kal's build. You might as well just follow a similar wiring plan.

Hmm. I guess I could grab a PID for the BK. Problem is, if I want to buy a PID for each of the BK and HLT, that also means I'd need an SSR for each, a probe for each, a probe receptical and outlet for each, and a power receptical/cord/outlet for each. Not only will I have to buy/install more stuff, but it will take up space inside my box. Additionally, I'd need to punch another hole in each keggle for the probes. It might sound petty, but I'd like to do this as easily/cheaply/quickly as I can.

It sounds like I really should at least control the BK with a PID. I'm not too concerned about the HLT. I can just switch it off when it hits strike/sparge temperature. I mean, that's what I do now with my propane burner.

Any thoughts about sharing power with the 120v RIMS? How would I limit the voltage coming in to the RIMS?

hatfieldenator said:

1. Look into the diagrams that Kal uses at www.theelectricbrewery.com You can have outlets for 2 different elements built into your control panel and a switch to toggle between them without ever having to worry about firing both at once.

2. As mentioned above, a simple on/off toggle switch to control your elements would be annoying as hell IMO, Its worth the time and money to use a PID! They are only $40-50 dollars anyway and can be added to your control panel very easily. Plus, they will do a far better job at managing your temps then you could do manually.

3. Read through Kal's build. You might as well just follow a similar wiring plan.

Click to expand...

I read through Kal's build (and heard his interview on THe Brewing Network) which, of course, is completely amazing. That guy should be in the HBT hall of fame.

As I think and plan, Is there some way I could share a PID, SSR, and heat sink between the BK and HLT? Like, have both elements wired to a selector switch, then to the SSR/PID? Has anyone done this?

erikrocks said:

Hmm. I guess I could grab a PID for the BK. Problem is, if I want to buy a PID for each of the BK and HLT, that also means I'd need an SSR for each, a probe for each, a probe receptical and outlet for each, and a power receptical/cord/outlet for each. Not only will I have to buy/install more stuff, but it will take up space inside my box. Additionally, I'd need to punch another hole in each keggle for the probes. It might sound petty, but I'd like to do this as easily/cheaply/quickly as I can.

It sounds like I really should at least control the BK with a PID. I'm not too concerned about the HLT. I can just switch it off when it hits strike/sparge temperature. I mean, that's what I do now with my propane burner.

Any thoughts about sharing power with the 120v RIMS? How would I limit the voltage coming in to the RIMS?

Click to expand...

I believe you could get away with one PID/SSR and simply use a quality DPDT switch to swap between the BK and HLT elements. Could probably even switch in the 120V side somehow. I'm thinking running everything off one PID/SSR is do-able. Drop P-J a line and ask him nicely, I'm sure he can draw ya up a 'pitchure.

Awesome, thanks. I will.

All you would have to do is have one outlet on your control box and plug in which ever element you're using. First, plug in your HLT element for the mash. When that's over, unplug that element and plug in the one from the boil kettle. Simple

I run my BK & HLT off of 1 PID-SSR it works great
I have a power cord attached to my contol panel that I switch between the two, and I have my temp sensor cord which I switch back and forth with plugs on the end

hatfieldenator said:

All you would have to do is have one outlet on your control box and plug in which ever element you're using. First, plug in your HLT element for the mash. When that's over, unplug that element and plug in the one from the boil kettle. Simple

Click to expand...

Yeah, that was my first thought, actually. I'd just need to make sure I have a switch between the outlet on the control box and the PID so I'd be sure there's not power going to the element when I unplug it.

redman67 said:

I run my BK & HLT off of 1 PID-SSR it works great
I have a power cord attached to my contol panel that I switch between the two, and I have my temp sensor cord which I switch back and forth with plugs on the end

Click to expand...

Do you use XLR plugs on your temp sensors?

I think I need to mull this over a little as I prepare to jump in the boat.

There is an inexpensive way to accomplish what you want (need) to do.

P-J

(Wait - wait - I just jumped in the boat---

P-J said:

I think I need to mull this over a little as I prepare to jump in the boat.

There is an inexpensive way to accomplish what you want (need) to do.

P-J

(Wait - wait - I just jumped in the boat---

Click to expand...

Ha...thanks, P-J.

The other wild card to throw into the ring is that I'm not married to either RIMS or HERMES. I currently have a RIMS setup in a small control box. I could either keep that, gut the old box, and transfer it all to the new, bigger e-rig control box OR I could scrap the RIMS, sell it, and go HERMES.

Whichever makes the most sense...

What are you using for your MASH tun? This is a key question..

P-J said:

What are you using for your MASH tun? This is a key question..

Click to expand...

My BK and MLT are keggles and my HLT is a 12 gallon aluminum pot.

Erik,

I hope you have a pump (or 2).

I'd suggest using a HERMS coil for your heat exchanger (1/2" OD immersion chiller) instead of the RIMS setup. I believe you will have better results using this method.

Here is a diagram that will work for your setup. It is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17") (Click on the image for a full scale diagram that you can save on your computer)



The parts needed for that setup and build are in this Excel spread sheet) Click on the image to go to the actual spread sheet - then save it to your computer before opening it.)




The parts listed should provide you with everything for a complete build including the controller box. (I hope I didn't miss anything)
I hope this helps you.

Please let me know.

P-J

P-J, that is awesome! Thanks so much...it looks perfect!

I have two questions, though. First, the link you gave me for the illuminated push button switches for the PID & pump sends me to the EPO switch. Do you have a part number for those switches?

The other thing is, why would I need a spa panel? I have enough room in my circuit box to wire a 30a GFCI and go directly to the brewery.

THanks again! I've already ordered almost everything!

Wow nice work up!

Erik,

I messed up big time on that switch. The hyperlink I created for that item was flat out wrong. Download the Excel spread sheet again (click on the image) and save it to your system again. I fixed the link and also entered the item pn in the "Item" column.

If you want to go with a plain toggle switch for the pumps and PID, you can use this one:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/POWER-FIRST-Toggle-Switch-2VLN5

Regarding the Spa Panel. I places it so that you have the option for an inexpensive way to add GFCI protection for your brewery. You most certainly can place a GFCI breaker directly in your mains panel. No problem. (When you see the price for the breaker and it becomes something over the top - you still have an alternative solution with the Spa Panel)

Wishing you the best.
Please keep us posted on your progress.

Thanks

Paul
P-J

Ah. I get it now. So all I have to do is pick up an inexpensive regular dual pole 30a breaker for my main panel, wire the spa panel to it (which comes with a 50a gfi protection) and I'm golden. Thanks!

Oh, and another question: you have fuses and resistors in your drawing--do you have the specifics on what kind to get?

Thanks again!

Radio Shack will have the resistors. They are just plain units sold in a 2 pack and have the typical pigtail wires on them. Just twist the wires together to make your connections and then solder them. I'd use a piece of shrink tube to cover them and isolate/insulate them. You can do the same thing with the fuses or just buy fuse holders for them. Radio Shack should have them as well.

P-J

Forgot to mention - Page 2 in the Excel spread sheet "GFCI Panel" shows different options for connecting the Spa Panel. Plus a suggestion for a way to mount single 120V outlets.

Yeah, I saw the gfci piece. Very cool.

I'll probably start the build not this weekend but next weekend. Awesome! I can't thank you enough.