Single Tier - Grant or No Grant?

I put together a recirc system for my mash tun so that I wouldn't have to stir my steam-injected step mashes. I am in the process of building a brew stand and moving away from a gravity-fed system. Since I have the pump and lines anyways, I thought I might as well outfit everything with disconnects and build a single-tier system.

My question is whether I should use a grant to collect my runnings from the mash tun and then pump it to the kettle, or should I pump directly from the mash tun to the boil kettle?

Perhaps I am worrying about nothing, but it seems like there would be a lot of attention required for direct pumping, whereas running-off a grant and pumping from there seems foolproof (albeit one more thing to clean).

I can at least suggest that not using a grant can be problematic when you're running off because it's hard to tell when you're about to suck air and lose prime. Running into a grant provides a visual indicator and/or you can use a float switch on the pump. I do my best to calculate my expected runoff volume and when I'm within 1/2 gallon of that amount, I slow the pump way down and watch closely for that first bubble of air in the line. I try to shut the pump valve before it loses prime.

I've not built a stand myself, but I can say that Jaybird's brew stand with grant is a great design. It just makes a lot of sense, and seems like a pretty easy solution. Here's a link to his setup if you're interested in it:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/jaybird-brewery-38923/index2.html

Ya I am a big fan of the grant. It can be used as a hop back as well, if it's located in a good spot on the system. I like that fact that you only need 4 fairly cheep and easy to install components 2 float switches, a relay, and a solenoid valve will automate a fly sparge and a vrolauf and eliminate problems like "air locks" that people have w/ the March pump.
Cheers
JJ

Thanks for the feedback guys. I see myself as the type of guy who will constantly loose the prime on my pump if I go direct from the mash tun, so I think a grant is the way to go. I have a whole collection of SS pots collecting dust from my stovetop brewing trials, so it should be easy enough to build a grant.

You will like the versatility it brings to a system! I love that ability to go into it from all vessels in the system. Then pump anywhere in the system.
Cheers
JJ

I never really pump out of the grainbed with the pumps fully open, so I have never had a problem. I considered a grant at first but decided against one. Haven't regretted my decision so far

FlyGuy said:

Thanks for the feedback guys. I see myself as the type of guy who will constantly loose the prime on my pump if I go direct from the mash tun

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Why?

I've been brewing on a single-tier, pumping directly from the mash tun to the kettle for years without problems. Provided you have a decent manifold, you shouldn't have problems.

The grant is an option and can make a nice hopback, can't argue there.

I think a big question is... do you Fly or Batch sparge?

I re-read Bobby's post 3 times trying to figure out how in the heck he could get at into his pump.... duh, its Bobby, he batch sparges.....

I fly sparge, and initially decided I would need a grant. Then I got a pump (I do not have my build even close to done yet) and started using it. I do not use a grant now, and don't think I ever will. I fly sparge and always have a constant in flow, and out flow (zero net mass transfer) so I never have a problem with loosing prime. I also sparge slow enough that compaction has never been even close to a problem.

I see Jaybird's point on the hob back, but I use a big IC with a whirlpool and do not need a hopback in my system.

End of the story, if you are flysparging, IMHO the grant is just another thing to clean and will make CIP more difficult. Or partial CIP in my case.

I batch sparge with a HERMS, single tier, and do not use a grant and have not had any issues. I have never lost my prime or sucked down the grain bed. I did build a hop back and had planned on using that for a grant when I was designing my set up. In the end I never needed it.

Mike

I batch sparge mostly, although on the new system I might put more time into fly sparging.

I can see myself losing my prime on the pump because I am a forgetful and sometimes unattentive person. I prefer batch sparging to fly sparging because there is no fiddly process to pay careful attention to. I like the idea of just opening the spigot and let er rip. Same concept here - if I lauter directly to a pump, my concerns relate to what has been mentioned above: my flow rate will drop, I won't spot it right away because I am too busy socializing with my brother or focused on the TV, or something. A grant just sounds easier because all I have to do is open up the spigot on the mash tun and let it drain as fast as gravity allows. I like simple, easy and fool proof.

So, I am leaning towards the grant. But since my mash tun is already configured for recirc, I might as well give straight pumping a shot first. If it works as well and as easily as some of you assert, then the lazy side of me will resist building a grant!

drez77 said:

I batch sparge with a HERMS, single tier, and do not use a grant and have not had any issues. I have never lost my prime or sucked down the grain bed. I did build a hop back and had planned on using that for a grant when I was designing my set up. In the end I never needed it.

Mike

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Ok, so when you're running off a sparge, how do you know when to stop pumping? If you stop well before the tun runs dry, you're sacrificing efficiency. If you run until it's dry, you just lost prime.

Bobby_M said:

Ok, so when you're running off a sparge, how do you know when to stop pumping? If you stop well before the tun runs dry, you're sacrificing efficiency. If you run until it's dry, you just lost prime.

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I will be honest with you. When I run off my sparge it goes right from the exit of the heat exchanger to the boil kettle. Once the flow is over with I will add in my batch sparge water and start the pump up for a recirculation. I have never had a problem with the flow starting back up. I am not using a march pump. I am using an Iwaki. I have no prime issues. I am only expressing my experience.

Mike

I pump directly from my MLT with no problems, and almost the exact same method Bobby spoke of. The opaque silicone tubing coming out of the MLT helps greatly. You just need to pay attention when transferring so as not to start sucking air. Recirculation is not a problem in the least.

drez77 said:

I will be honest with you. When I run off my sparge it goes right from the exit of the heat exchanger to the boil kettle. Once the flow is over with I will add in my batch sparge water and start the pump up for a recirculation. I have never had a problem with the flow starting back up. I am not using a march pump. I am using an Iwaki. I have no prime issues. I am only expressing my experience.

Mike

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I guess the different pump is the difference. It's not that I don't know how to reprime the March pump but it is a pain in the ass to have to do if I don't catch the moment the hose from the MLT pulls an air bubble.

I've only tried doing a constant recirculation once and the grain bill was wheat heavy. Even though I had rice hulls in there, the grainbed compacted enough to get stuck to the point where wort was on top, but none under the false bottom. Pump lost prime twice. I'll try again with a more traditional all-malt grist and see what happens.

If you are batch sparging I would side with Bobby and go with a grant. Seems easier to me. It would be really slick to have a level switch that ensured you never overflowed the grant (if you are as forgetful as you let on).

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

It would be really slick to have a level switch that ensured you never overflowed the grant (if you are as forgetful as you let on).

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And that is precisely why I like the grant. I can (and did) automate the system rather easily.
I sure hope this isn't turning into a "VS" thread LOL
Cheers
JJ

Bobby_M said:

I guess the different pump is the difference. It's not that I don't know how to reprime the March pump but it is a pain in the ass to have to do if I don't catch the moment the hose from the MLT pulls an air bubble.

I've only tried doing a constant recirculation once and the grain bill was wheat heavy. Even though I had rice hulls in there, the grainbed compacted enough to get stuck to the point where wort was on top, but none under the false bottom. Pump lost prime twice. I'll try again with a more traditional all-malt grist and see what happens.

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I had a march and it gave me nothing but problems. Once it gave up the ghost I decided to try a different brand. I re-circulate constantly and have had no issues even with a wheat beer. To be fair, I never had this design when I had the march so I am not sure how it would have worked with it.

I agree 100% that the march is a PITA to prime.

Mike

my mash tun has a sight glass, so I can keep my water level in the mash above the grain bed during the entire fly sparge process. When my boil kettle volume is correct, I shut it all off and start the flame. At that point my mash tun still has the same volume of liquid that it started with.

I drain that off then scoop out spent grain.

It took me two runs to realize I could use the sight glass to better guage the volume and not have to drain out so much water, but I'm debating which way to go with it now. Classic british sparging kept 1" of water on top of the grain bed, as mine was "designed" to do.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

If you are batch sparging I would side with Bobby and go with a grant. Seems easier to me. It would be really slick to have a level switch that ensured you never overflowed the grant (if you are as forgetful as you let on).

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Yes, already thinking about the level switch -- I am VERY forgetful! For example, when I used to bottle, I was known to discover my cooled priming sugar solution sitting on the stove only AFTER bottling a the whole 5 gal batch (did that at least 3 times in fact!). I also ruined a beautiful SS pot because I put water in it to boil, walked away while it heated up, got distracted by something else (probably HBT), and came back to a dry, glowing-red, completely ruined mess.

Anyways, thanks for the opinions everyone -- that is all very helpful to me.

damn! You are forgetful!

While I was double batching, when I used my cooler mash tun I would vorlauf by running off into a gallon jug and pouring it back in the top about 4 times or until clear. Two times I had a batch chilling on one side of the garage, and the vorlauf going on the other side, and turned around to see an overflowing grant. Once I think I lost at least a gallon, and I had to make up points with LME, which was a bit old, and I got an oxidized flavor into an otherwise tastey batch.

Anyway, I'm anti-grant.

For you, sir, I would say you must never EVER have a grant, unless you like remembering you are brewing and turning to see your entire first runnings on the ground.

drez77 said:

I had a march and it gave me nothing but problems. Once it gave up the ghost I decided to try a different brand.

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What brand?

Kal

nathan said:

damn! You are forgetful!

While I was double batching, when I used my cooler mash tun I would vorlauf by running off into a gallon jug and pouring it back in the top about 4 times or until clear. Two times I had a batch chilling on one side of the garage, and the vorlauf going on the other side, and turned around to see an overflowing grant. Once I think I lost at least a gallon, and I had to make up points with LME, which was a bit old, and I got an oxidized flavor into an otherwise tastey batch.

Anyway, I'm anti-grant.

For you, sir, I would say you must never EVER have a grant, unless you like remembering you are brewing and turning to see your entire first runnings on the ground.

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One step ahead of you my friend -- dual float switches!

drez77 said:

I had a march and it gave me nothing but problems. Once it gave up the ghost I decided to try a different brand. I re-circulate constantly and have had no issues even with a wheat beer. To be fair, I never had this design when I had the march so I am not sure how it would have worked with it.

I agree 100% that the march is a PITA to prime.

Mike

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And the million dollar question: Where did you get this Iwaki, how much did it cost, and why hasn't it ever been mentioned before this?

ScubaSteve said:

And the million dollar question: Where did you get this Iwaki, how much did it cost, and why hasn't it ever been mentioned before this?

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"Iwaki"? That sounds like something you do when the wife is out of town and the girlfriend is busy....

ScubaSteve said:

And the million dollar question: Where did you get this Iwaki, how much did it cost, and why hasn't it ever been mentioned before this?

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I got my iwaki on eBay. They are used for salt water aquariums. Unlike the march the head is not rated at the same temperature as the march. It is rated only up to 176. I talked to tech support about the application I wanted to use it an and they told me that because of the application that they are designed for they were never tested above 176 but I was told it would work at a higher temperature it was just not rated for that. I usual do not talk about the iwaki much because it does cost more than the march. I believe mine was 145 or 150. At this point I would never go back. This pump primes fast. If the prime is lost it is very simple to re-prime. For my HERMS it has worked out perfect.

If you have any more questions just PM me.

Mike