yeast starter for lager in carboy

I'm getting ready to brew a Vienna lager. Never tried it before. My buddy suggested making a big starter. At least one gallon, he suggested two gallons even. Since I've always done my starters in a 1/2 gallon growler I was wondering if I could just make a starter in a carboy, decant, then put the lager wort right on top of the slurry? One concern I had is 2 gallons of starter in a 6 gallon carboy leaves lots of air space. Is that a problem or would there be plenty of fermentation activity to give off CO2 and purge O2 from the carboy?

Thanks,

Jeff

head space is not an issue with starters .... you want the starter to oxidize so they yeast have LOTS of O2 to aid in cell growth.

go here to calculate exactly how big of a starter you really need for your batch.

Old thread but here goes, does anyone do this and does it work? I am close to lager season in my basement and would like to know how effective this approach is.

Never done it myself but it will work. All the oxidised wort will be decanted. No different than pitching on a yeast cake from a previous batch Exocet the yeast will be much more healthy and pure

What approach are you talking about. You need to read a lot about starters. Lagers require a lot more yeast than ales but 2 gallons???

Mr Malty is a standard. Also look at this site:http://www.yeastcalc.co/homebrew-calculators

kh54s10 said:

What approach are you talking about. You need to read a lot about starters. Lagers require a lot more yeast than ales but 2 gallons???

Mr Malty is a standard. Also look at this site:http://www.yeastcalc.co/homebrew-calculators

Click to expand...

Mr Malty says 7.47 liters with 1 pack of ultra fresh yeast for a 1.048 lager, so 2 gallons is probably in the ballpark, depending upon age and gravity.

The only way I can get wort to lager temp is by chilling overnight in the fridge so I'll run off a gallon into a second carboy to use as a starter while main portion of the wort chills. I'll pitch the yeast into the 1 gallon starter at room temp but try to bring it down to ferment temp once its going. 24 hours later there will be a full krausen on the 1 gal starter and I'll dump in the rest of the wort on top and aerate. No decanting or anything (the starter is identical wort). It has seems to work great. I was a little worried at first but haven't had any issues with oxidation and even though the pitch rate is theoretically on the low side, the lag time has been really really short, often krausening within 4 hours of adding the main wort (probably because the yeast is so active when it gets pitched) and i haven't had any issues with attenuation. Granted I haven't done too many beers this way. I've done 3 beers this way (kicked the keg on 2 of them) and I started a 4th this weekend.

pdxal said:

Mr Malty says 7.47 liters with 1 pack of ultra fresh yeast for a 1.048 lager, so 2 gallons is probably in the ballpark, depending upon age and gravity.

Click to expand...

Is this for a 10 gallon batch of lager and simple starter? Try looking at intermittent shaking. That would be swirling the starter every time you are in that room. Maybe every 15 minutes to a half hour. That drops it from about 8 liters to 5. With a stirplate it drops the same starter to about 3 liters.

If it is a 5 gallon batch it would be half that. So 2 gallons seems way to big, depending on???

7.5 L starter!

I'm a proponent of targeting an appropriate pitch rate but unless your making some massive batch like 20+ gallons this is a nonsnse idea.

I've a Vienna lager on tap and I used ~2.5L starter, decanted the spent beer and pitched slurry. Turned out very well. (5.5 gallon batch OG 1.046, FG 1.009)

The cost of DME alone for a starter this big (750g of DME). Make a stir plate and it will reduce your satrter size and pay for itself in 2-3 batches. $20 for the parts needed. ($7 for a stir-bar too of course)

I would suggest reassessing your approach to making lagers. Lots of yeast is needed but there are more practical, less costly ways to meet the objective.

I'm too lazy to make a starter. I just pitched 2 vials of WLP 820 in a 5 gallon batch of Octoberfest (Yes, I know it's too late...) OG about 1.069. Pitch temp was probably a little too high. But, now It's in the keezer at 49F ambient. I had active fermentation in less than 48 hrs.

BTW, Lager fermentation does not smell nice. I love fermenting an IPA smells WONDERFUL. I'd buy air freshener that smells like that. This lager smells something in the neighborhood of rancid milk or cheese. I'm not worried, though. That's what the vials smelled like when I cracked them open.

2 vials is pitching about 1/2 of what you should for a 1.048 lager. It will ferment the beer. But you risk off flavors by underpitching by that much.

Also you probably paid about $18 for the 2 vials. You could do a starter and pitch the proper amount of yeast for about $12 if you made a starter.

Agreed that lager yeasts do not smell nice. Some ale yeasts also smell bad. At least to me.

kh54s10 said:

2 vials is pitching about 1/2 of what you should for a 1.048 lager. It will ferment the beer. But you risk off flavors by underpitching by that much.

Also you probably paid about $18 for the 2 vials. You could do a starter and pitch the proper amount of yeast for about $12 if you made a starter.

Agreed that lager yeasts do not smell nice. Some ale yeasts also smell bad. At least to me.

Click to expand...

Well, obviously I hope it turns out OK. LHBS thought I'd be ok. I guess we'll see how it turns out.

sareinhart said:

Well, obviously I hope it turns out OK. LHBS thought I'd be ok. I guess we'll see how it turns out.

Click to expand...

Ouch. I just looked at Mr. Malty. 499 billion cells. I got between 150-300 billion cells. Not good. Not good at all.

sareinhart said:

Well, obviously I hope it turns out OK. LHBS thought I'd be ok. I guess we'll see how it turns out.

Click to expand...

It will ferment the beer, and likely there will be off flavors from underpitching. I am not good at detecting or describing off flavors. I have brewed a lot that were probably off. I do not make any water corrections, I do not check pH, Yet and my beers have been well received.

I make the effort to make sure I am pitching the proper amount of healthy yeast though.

The biggest thing is if you like it, it is good.

Yes, lager yeasts can throw some sulphur and stink.

I think the difference is between optimal and acceptable. We've all made good beers with less than ideal methods. A 10 gallon lager with a single pack of liquid yeast is certainly doable too, but with lots of potential for problems. I was just quoting Mr. Malty's simple starter number of 7.47 liters for a 5 gallon batch of 1.048 lager with >95% viability yeast, which is close to 2 gallons, to explain where the OP's friend was coming from. I know a stir plate starter would only need 2.8 liters (but add the cost of a stir plate) or intermittent shaking will only require 4.31 liters of starter (without the cost of a stir plate). I do intermittent shaking myself with good results.
Along these same lines, I have made several 2-3 gallon 1.040 beers as starters in a 5 gallon carboy, racked off the beer, and racked in 5 gallons of a fresh 1.080 doppelbock wort. Both the starter beer and doppelbock turned out. I look at the starter beer as basically free beer from the yeast farming.
To each their own on making lagers, lots of ways to do them, thanks for sharing your methods.

I got this size from the book "brewing classic styles". it said for the Octoberfest beer (5gal.) to use 4 packs of liquid yeast or an apporpriate starter. In the appendix in the back it Said 1 liquid yeast pack could be used to make a 9L starter, and still get the proper yeast count. I was planning on doing this in a 6.5G carboy. Crashing it in my kegerator, decanting spent wort and adding fresh wort onto it at appropriate lager temps. I know 2 gallons is off a little from 9L, I guessed it would be close enough.

UP-Brewer said:

I got this size from the book "brewing classic styles". it said for the Octoberfest beer (5gal.) to use 4 packs of liquid yeast or an apporpriate starter. In the appendix in the back it Said 1 liquid yeast pack could be used to make a 9L starter, and still get the proper yeast count. I was planning on doing this in a 6.5G carboy. Crashing it in my kegerator, decanting spent wort and adding fresh wort onto it at appropriate lager temps. I know 2 gallons is off a little from 9L, I guessed it would be close enough.

Click to expand...

4 packs of liquid yeast is $32 or (1 pack at $8 and roughly $8 worth of DME) $16. That's a heck of a yeast-bill. Not going to happen in my home brewery

Just to put these nonsense starter sizes into perspective.

I bought 1 vial of WLP833 (100 Billion cells) some months back.

I have successful brewed 3 different 5.5 gallon batches of lagers from this one vial using appropriately sized starters.(Not the ridiculous sizes your mentioning).

I still have enough of this yeast in the fridge for the next lager I make. (in the planning stages)

Do what you want of course and don't let anyone's advice deter you if you've decided that an 8L starter is the way to go.

You mentioned a 2.5L starter for a Vienna lager. Was that made with a stir plate? I have only done a few brews(ales) with liquid yeast which were low enough OG that I didn't think a starter was needed. I am trying to learn as much as I can being this will be my first lager. I don't want to wait for a lager that ends up being off.

UP-Brewer said:

You mentioned a 2.5L starter for a Vienna lager. Was that made with a stir plate? I have only done a few brews(ales) with liquid yeast which were low enough OG that I didn't think a starter was needed. I am trying to learn as much as I can being this will be my first lager. I don't want to wait for a lager that ends up being off.

Click to expand...

Always a stirred starter. Much better yeast growth per gram of DME using one. I use mine at full speed as that is also shown to improve growth rates. I always make a starter with liquid yeast. No exceptions IMO.

I've been kegging my lagers at 14-16 days. Lagering them in the keg. Usually drinking them 3 weeks later.

My Helles fared reasonably well in competition using the methods I've outlined.

Might be doing something right I suppose.