2nd AG and I must be missing something

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Turkeyfoot Jr.

Turkeyfoot Jr.

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I just did my second AG this weekend and I must be missing something because my efficiency was horrible yet again, ~55%.

Here are some of the details, let me know what else you need to know...

I'm basing this efficiency estimate off of Beersmith. I was supposed to end up with 5 gallons at 1.052 but due to the fact that I'm still dialing in my equipment I over-boiled and ended up with 3.5 gallons but only at 1.059.

Unlike last time I bought iodine to do a conversion test and it came back positive for conversion. However, this is one technique I wanted to make sure I was using correctly. I bought standard iodine solution from the pharmacy department at a local grocery store, is that the right stuff? I did some digging online and I don't see a reference to any special form of brewer's iodine. I took a small sample from my mash after it had been sitting for 60 minutes, dribbled in a drop of iodine and saw no reaction, not even a hint of color change. I took that to mean all was well and conversion was a success.

The recipe was:

4.2lb. Munich
4.2lb. 2-Row
1.05lb. Cara-Pils
1.05lb. Crystal 90L
1.5oz. Willamette

My strike volume was 15.75Q, 1.5q/lb., and after dough in the mash was slightly higher than anticipated, 155F. I sparged with 21Q at 168F and collected 7.75 gallons into the kettle.

I crushed the grains myself using a Barley Crusher at the factory default setting. It looks good to me but then again I'm noob so that doesn't mean much.

I only stirred the grains once during the mash, about half way through, and I batch sparged with two almost equal volumes.

I can't think of any other pertinent information right now, let me know if there are any more details I can provide.
 
Three things will help IMHO.
1. tweak the crush ever so slightly finer.
2. go a little stiffer on the mash, 1.25qt/lb leving more total liquid for sparging.
3. go hotter on the sparge, 180-185F.

You DID stir after each sparge infusion right?
 
On my last 2 batches I stirred for a timed 5 minutes . I think that it helped my efficiency as funny as it sounds. It felt like 2X as long as I had done prior. You sure boiled off a lot, was the burner roaring?
 
i agree with bobby. crush till you're scared. stir after each 180F sparge infusion. there's no reason to accept less than 75%
 
Turkeyfoot Jr. said:
I just did my second AG this weekend and I must be missing something because my efficiency was horrible yet again, ~55%.

Here are some of the details, let me know what else you need to know...

I'm basing this efficiency estimate off of Beersmith. I was supposed to end up with 5 gallons at 1.052 but due to the fact that I'm still dialing in my equipment I over-boiled and ended up with 3.5 gallons but only at 1.059.

Unlike last time I bought iodine to do a conversion test and it came back positive for conversion. However, this is one technique I wanted to make sure I was using correctly. I bought standard iodine solution from the pharmacy department at a local grocery store, is that the right stuff? I did some digging online and I don't see a reference to any special form of brewer's iodine. I took a small sample from my mash after it had been sitting for 60 minutes, dribbled in a drop of iodine and saw no reaction, not even a hint of color change. I took that to mean all was well and conversion was a success.

The recipe was:

4.2lb. Munich
4.2lb. 2-Row
1.05lb. Cara-Pils
1.05lb. Crystal 90L
1.5oz. Willamette

My strike volume was 15.75Q, 1.5q/lb., and after dough in the mash was slightly higher than anticipated, 155F. I sparged with 21Q at 168F and collected 7.75 gallons into the kettle.

I crushed the grains myself using a Barley Crusher at the factory default setting. It looks good to me but then again I'm noob so that doesn't mean much.

I only stirred the grains once during the mash, about half way through, and I batch sparged with two almost equal volumes.

I can't think of any other pertinent information right now, let me know if there are any more details I can provide.
Click to expand...
What kind of false bottom are you using. I found that when using a sparge bag in a bucket I'm only getting .023 pts/lb/gal. My keg system with false bottom gets
.031 pt/lb/gal. Your grain bill in my system would produce an O.G. of 1.043 and 1.059 in my systems. Are you using a false bottom? Another factor could be the way you sparge. I use a HLT with an adjustable valve to keep a steady flow of water that goes through a S.S. colander to sparge. I maintain about 1 to 2 inches of water above the grain bed. This help to rinse more sugars out of the grain.
 
Bobby,

My 1st batch of AG was at 1.25q/lb. and I still got shotty efficiency but I will try that again. From doing more research I think the sparge temp could be a big factor so I'm definitely going to tweak that. Yes, I stirred thoroughly after each sparge infusion.

Blender,

Yeah, I'm still trying to get a feel for how wide open I need to run my burner and I think I have that setting now. Unfortunately, I didn't get it tuned in until about half through the boil. But, for my next batch I know where I'm going to set it and I should be good.

Warrior,

I have a 5G round rubbermaid cooler for a MLT with the stainless braid setup from FlyGuy's thread.

Alright, based on the responses I've received and more research I have these four things to try:

1. Hotter sparge water, 180-185F.
2. Thicker mash and the resulting increased sparge volume.
3. Trying the new batch sparge technique that was in BYO and has been talked about on several threads.
4. Finer crush.

I will probably give all these a whirl on my next batch and see how things go. Thanks for all the advice guys!
 
Honestly, I'd skip idea #3 at least for one more batch. If you get increased efficiency, I think you're going to attribute it at least in part to that half cocked fly sparge. Sorry. I know some folks here think it's great but I don't think it's the end all of increased efficiency. If that were the case, I would take my "normal" 92% efficiency and get 98%? Doubt it.

I'd rather you troubleshoot why you can't get 80+% on a "traditional" batch sparge. Once you've exhausted that, you can get creative. Just MHO.
 
That's a good point Bobby. I had actually considered going through and implementing each change one at a time in a series of 4 batches but decided I didn't want to take the time and end up with 4 batches of "not-quite-right" beer. I think I'll go ahead with 1, 2 and 4 and see where that takes me. Thanks again.
 
Check your water PH as well, I saw I huge jump in efficiency when I realized that my water was alkaline and remedied my problem with 5.2 buffer.
 
Turkeyfoot Jr. said:
That's a good point Bobby. I had actually considered going through and implementing each change one at a time in a series of 4 batches but decided I didn't want to take the time and end up with 4 batches of "not-quite-right" beer. I think I'll go ahead with 1, 2 and 4 and see where that takes me. Thanks again.
Click to expand...

FWIW, I use a Barley Crusher on factory default settings and I get 90%+ efficiency into the boiler. I'd try 1 + 2 first and see where that takes you before messing with the crush.
 
I use by Barley Crusher on factory settings and always get 80 or so efficiency, I tried tweaking it but my mash stuck so back to factory, I don't know how hot your sparge water was but I always go as high as 190 degrees to get up to 170 or so, after first draining the tun.
 
Don't get too hung up on "factory settings". There are manufacturing tolerances at play here. Every one of those machines is a little different. Also, the grain is a little different. Each barley crop produces unique grain. I use a corona and I'm using a new and unique setting every time I brew. I start crushing and take a look at the grist that comes out. if I see ANY whole kernals, I tighten it up. If I start to see more flour than hulls, I loosen it up. I've been hitting 85% +/- 2% since day one with that method, and the only stuck sparge was the result of pushing the crush further and using a LOT of rice and corn flakes. keep us posted.
 
Weather permitting, in other words as long as it doesn't rain Saturday but every day up until then so it's too wet to work in the yard, I will be brewing again Saturday. At the very least I'm going to go with a stiffer mash and hotter sparge water. I may tweak the crush as well although I really think I'm getting a good crush. I know when I looked at it Sunday I didn't see any whole grains or at least they weren't obvious.
 
Even though the Barley Crusher is set at the factory doesn't mean that it may have moved in transit. It's easy to check with a feeler gauge.
 
Warrior said:
What kind of false bottom are you using. I found that when using a sparge bag in a bucket I'm only getting .023 pts/lb/gal. My keg system with false bottom gets
.031 pt/lb/gal. Your grain bill in my system would produce an O.G. of 1.043 and 1.059 in my systems. Are you using a false bottom? Another factor could be the way you sparge. I use a HLT with an adjustable valve to keep a steady flow of water that goes through a S.S. colander to sparge. I maintain about 1 to 2 inches of water above the grain bed. This help to rinse more sugars out of the grain.
Click to expand...

Just to add to this... false bottoms generally get better sparge efficiency than braids or bazooka screens. The reason is you're pulling the sugars off the grain in a more uniform manner over the whole surface area of the mash tun during sparging. With a braid or screen, all of the sugars have to travel down the mash tun to more of a center point. This results in leaving more sugars behind near the outside diamater of the mash tun.
 
farmbrewernw said:
Check your water PH as well, I saw I huge jump in efficiency when I realized that my water was alkaline and remedied my problem with 5.2 buffer.
Click to expand...
Water chemistry can play a big role. I used the 5.2 buffer and it helped with my blond ale.

You can also mash longer. Go 90 or 120 minutes next time. I get a poor crush at my homebrew store and I think the longer time definitely helped. You can also check out the batch sparge directions in my signature for other suggestions.
 
menschmaschine said:
Just to add to this... false bottoms generally get better sparge efficiency than braids or bazooka screens. The reason is you're pulling the sugars off the grain in a more uniform manner over the whole surface area of the mash tun during sparging. With a braid or screen, all of the sugars have to travel down the mash tun to more of a center point. This results in leaving more sugars behind near the outside diamater of the mash tun.
Click to expand...
This is correct, but it really only applies to fly sparging. I believe the OP said that he was batch sparging. Some actually theorize that INCREASED channelization (i.e. less uniform lautering) improves efficiency with batch sparging. So it might actually be possible that a short braid provides better efficiency when batch sparging than a false bottom. I am not so sure this is true, but I have heard it enough times from good brewers that I am not about to discount the possibility either.

To the OP, another possibility that hasn't been mentioned is that you should be certain that your grain is thoroughly mixed into your sparge water. If you have dry spots or 'dough balls' your efficiency will nose dive. I find that slowly adding the grains to my water is a much easier method for avoiding dry spots.
 
FlyGuy,

I think dry spots could have been an issue with my first AG which is why I upped the strike to 1.5q/lb and I added my grains to the strike water slowly and in three installments, stirring between each, just to make sure everything was well mixed.

Positive,

The mash was 60 minutes. I don't have a way of measuring pH. As for the boil-off, as I said in previous post I'm still trying to work out how wide open I need my burner in order to keep a rolling boil but not boil-off too much. I believe I have that setting now but I need to brew again to be sure. Hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to test things out.
 
i just meant that its physically hard to burn off that much in my experience. didnt mean "how did you let yourself do that"
'
 
Ahh, okay. Yeah, I was kind of shocked as well. But, my runnings filled one ale pail to just over the 5 gallon mark and another to around 2 and 1/2 maybe 2 and 2/3 so I know I had around 7.75 gallons pre-boil. After the boil, once the kettle was drained into my carboy, I had right around 3.5 gallons. It blows me away that I could have boiled off that much but I don't know how else to explain the numbers.
 
I said I would check back in once I brewed again so here goes...

Unfortunately, I only have a guess as to what my efficiency was this past brew session. As I was getting ready to read my hydrometer I knocked over the test jar and spilled almost the entire thing. The carboy was already in the basement, blowoff attached and wrapped in a towel so I wasn't about to go draw another sample. From the brief glimpse I got before I sent the jar flying I estimate the OG to be 1.058 which for this batch works out to be a 61% efficiency which is an improvement just not much of one. However, since I spilled it and this is just a guess I'm not going to adjust anything for my next brew and see where I end up.

In any case, this time I mashed with 1.25 qt/lb and sparged per Beersmith with 20.5 qt. My mash was 153.5 and my sparge water was about 187 when it hit the grains. I used two batches for my sparge and made sure to heat the second to ensure it was at the right temp and hadn't dropped off too much.

As for the boil off issue, I'm closer but still need to adjust. I boiled down from ~6.75G to 4G in an hour. Part of the issue is that I was planning on a pre-boil volume of 7.14G but using Beersmith's numbers for strike and sparge volumes I only ended up with the 6.75. I'm going to adjust accordingly next time and see if I hit my volumes correctly. Hopefully that coupled with dialing back the burner again will get me to where I want to be.

For next time I'm going to...
...use a 1.25 qt/lb ratio again for my mash.
...get the sparge to 185 again.
...use 1.5 qts more sparge than what Beersmith tells me.
...dial back the burner another 1/4 turn.
 
Turkeyfoot Jr. said:
For next time I'm going to...
...use a 1.25 qt/lb ratio again for my mash.
...get the sparge to 185 again.
...use 1.5 qts more sparge than what Beersmith tells me.
...dial back the burner another 1/4 turn.
Click to expand...

I use BeerSmith as well and I'm spot on with respect to amount of wort collected from the MLT. I measure the volume of my first runnings and my sparge runnings and compare them to what BeerSmith tells me I should collect.

I recommend figuring out how much wort you are leaving behind in your MLT and then enter that into BeerSmith. That way the amount of sparge water BeerSmith tells you to use will be correct, and you won't have to arbitrarily adjust it.

FWIW, I use a grain absorption factor of 0.1 gallons per pound of grain, and I have 0.25 gallons of dead space in my MLT that traps wort I can't get out. Those are the only two numbers you need.
 
Doing my own calculations and comparing to Beersmith is what's gotten me to this point. Let me lay out what I've done and maybe I'm missing something.

My batch prior to this I disregarded Beersmith's numbers for sparge, mashed at 1.5 qt/lb and sparged at 2 qt/lb. According to my calculations I should have collected 7.14G in total which is the same total Beersmith came to but with less sparge water. Ended up collecting 7.75G. I sat down afterwards and analyzed the numbers and realized that the difference between what I used in total volume for strike and sparge and what Beersmith recommended was 0.75G. Ah ha, I used 0.75G more total water and I collected roughly 0.6G more total volume.

So, this time around I went with exactly what Beersmith told me and I ended up a little short, 0.4G. Given that these measurements are based off of the Ale Pails I'm collecting wort in I'm assuming there's some inaccuary. In any case, I'm hoping that if I add the 0.4G to start with I will get to where I want to be.

EDIT: I wanted to add that I'm using a 5G round cooler with a SS braid for my MLT. Based on the complete lack of liquid when I dump my spent grains I'd say that I'm not losing much if anything to deadspace.
 
Turkeyfoot Jr. said:
Doing my own calculations and comparing to Beersmith is what's gotten me to this point. Let me lay out what I've done and maybe I'm missing something.

My batch prior to this I disregarded Beersmith's numbers for sparge, mashed at 1.5 qt/lb and sparged at 2 qt/lb. According to my calculations I should have collected 7.14G in total which is the same total Beersmith came to but with less sparge water. Ended up collecting 7.75G. I sat down afterwards and analyzed the numbers and realized that the difference between what I used in total volume for strike and sparge and what Beersmith recommended was 0.75G. Ah ha, I used 0.75G more total water and I collected roughly 0.6G more total volume.

So, this time around I went with exactly what Beersmith told me and I ended up a little short, 0.4G. Given that these measurements are based off of the Ale Pails I'm collecting wort in I'm assuming there's some inaccuary. In any case, I'm hoping that if I add the 0.4G to start with I will get to where I want to be.

EDIT: I wanted to add that I'm using a 5G round cooler with a SS braid for my MLT. Based on the complete lack of liquid when I dump my spent grains I'd say that I'm not losing much if anything to deadspace.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you are real close to having it dialed in. I swear, 95% of AG brewing is learning how to use your own system. Give me somebody elses system and I'd be lost.

Do you pick up the cooler and tilt it and shake it a little bit to get the last of the wort out? I have a smallish (7-gallon) round cooler MLT with a bazooka tube, and I need to tilt it up on its side to get the last of the wort out. Doing so might make up that last 0.4 gallons for you.
 
What kind of water are you using? Someone in a previous post mentioned it already and from what I have heard your water can play a big part in your lack of efficiency. Not saying it is the case, but it is something to consider.
 
I have tilted the cooler before but with no apparent change in how much wort I collect.

I hear ya about dialing things in. I've noticed a huge improvement just over the course of the 3 batches I've done. I figure another 2-3 batches and I should have everything all set. Such a shame, to have to keep making more and more beer until I get it right. LOL!

I think I read that same thread stever. I'm just using plain old tap water and I haven't gotten around to calling the water department and getting a report on my water. It's on my list of things to check into.
 

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