Water Test Result/RO water

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tally350z

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So I am getting around to control more of my batches and I am starting to work with the water. I finally got my water tested and wanted to see what everyone thinks. Looks to me that the hardness is way high and so is the Alkalinity. I am thinking of just buy water from the store and using the additions to get it where I want rather than messing with the water too much.
Let me know what you guys think..

Here's what I got back from the tests.
Calcium 44
Magnesium 14.8
Potassium .36
Sodium 2.9
Fluoride .65
Hardness 170.68
Conductivity 310.23
Alkalinity 157
Ph 7.98

Is this enough information to determine how to adjust my water treatment?
 
You'll want sulfate and chloride levels too. Your hardness is decent for brewing, but you're correct that the alkalinity is higher than one would want for most beers. RO water would definitely be the easiest way to remove the alkalinity.
 
Ok, Ill have to see if I can get the sulfate and chloride levels this week. Should I not be too concerned about the high ph either? I know that the grist will adjust it but is starting out that high bad..
 
Ok, Ill have to see if I can get the sulfate and chloride levels this week. Should I not be too concerned about the high ph either? I know that the grist will adjust it but is starting out that high bad..

You call that high? My tap pH is around 8.6-8.8. Anyways, water pH is irrelevant. But with the alkalinity you have, stuff like porters should work out well, but lighter beers you'll come in high on mash pH without some other adjustments. At least that's my experience with water of similar alkalinity (although much softer).
 
I guess it just seemed high to me haha. What could I add to the water to make it better for the lighter beers without getting to complicated..
 
I guess it just seemed high to me haha. What could I add to the water to make it better for the lighter beers without getting to complicated..

Add food grade acid or saurmalz.

AJ has a nice, simple, guide to brewing water modifications for starting with RO water here.

I tend to use RO for lighter beers and my tap water for darker stuff.
 
With 14 years in Tallahassee and 12 years of brewing with that tap water, I can definitively tell you that RO dilution is completely unneeded. The only thing that must be corrected to brew lighter colored beers is alkalinity reduction. This water is fairly well situated because the alkalinity level is not too high to prevent the use of acid for brewing lighter beers without significant taste effects or brew darker beers without having to add alkalinity.

The choice to add chloride or sulfate or any other minerals is entirely up to the palate of the brewer. The good thing is that all the 'flavor ions' Mg, Na, SO4, and Cl in Tallahassee water are low. By the way, the sulfate is about 5 ppm and chloride is about 6 ppm. That completes the water profile.

At one time, the predecessor to Bru'n Water had the Tallahassee water profile in it. You will find that Bru'n Water will provide a Tallahassee brewer with everything needed to effectively adjust their brewing water without the PITA of using RO water. Check it out.

By the way, lactic acid from the bottle is more effective and less expensive than using acid malt. Think twice about its use.
 
Awesome thanks for the info on the sulfate and chloride. I will look at the options for the acid additions and try it out next time.
 
With 14 years in Tallahassee and 12 years of brewing with that tap water, I can definitively tell you that RO dilution is completely unneeded.

Unless you want to go from good to excellent beers. People with water of about this level of hardness (don't know about the chloride and sulfate), and I am certainly one, have found that switching to RO made that final jump possible.


By the way, the sulfate is about 5 ppm and chloride is about 6 ppm.

Well now I do know about the chloride and sulfate.

...without the PITA of using RO water.

Clearly the PITA factor depends on how one obtains the RO water; whether, at one extreme, he must drive to a health food store on the other side of town or, at the other, opens the valve labeled 'RO' as opposed to the one labeled 'Well'. No question that preparing RO water for brewing is much simpler than preparing water which must be decarbonated with acid. One either has to calculate the amount of acid to add to neutralize the alkalinity, measure it out and then add it or, in the blind, add the acid, with aeration, to the point where the pH reaches 4.5 - 5.5. The latter approach is easier and, provided the water is stable (i.e. the alkalinity does not vary seasonally or the water company does not blend from/switch between several suppliers) after having done this once the same amount or nearly the same amount will be required each time. Note that in determining how much to add you are effectively measuring the alkalinity.

At this point the water will have 0 (or close to 0) alkalinity but still more acid will be needed in the case of many if not most beers, to get mash pH right and in deciding what acid to use for this one must take into account which acid he used to get rid of the alkalinity as the anion of that acid is still there. Then on top of that one must calculate salt additions required to get chloride, sulfate and calcium levels where he wants them based on the levels in the water. With RO only the last step is required. Seems simpler to me but each must decide for himself.

In this particular case I don't know of any way, with simplicity approaching that of RO, to get the calcium level below 44, and lagers, particular Pilsners, wheat beers, wit beers, Kölschs etc., definitely are improved with calcium at these lower levels(yes, yes, I know that one must have at least 50 ppm calcium but this imperative in unknown in Pilsen, Ceske Budejovice and McLean). I can definitely state that it is worth it to go to RO if obtaining the water itself isn't too nettlesome.

By the way, lactic acid from the bottle is more effective and less expensive than using acid malt. Think twice about its use.

Lactic acid is lactic acid in terms of pH control. I.E. lactic acid in a bottle or lactic acid on malt (sauermalz) or lactic acid in wort (sauergut) will all get you to the correct pH. None is more effective that any of the others. But in terms of ease of use it is hard to beat lactic acid. 1% of grist by weight drops pH by 0.1 pH (one of the few rules of thumb in brewing that really seems to hold up). In preparing to brew you are weighing out small quantities of specialty grains and sauermalz is just another one of those. You don't have to measure anything or make any calculations based on whether you have 80% or 88% acid and you don't have to obtain a graduated cylinder to measure the liquid out - not that this is such a big deal. But the place where sauermalz really shines, IMO, is in the the subtle flavors it lends to beers. Again, IMO, these are definitely worth the extra expense (which is in the noise anyway) though if you said these are more suited to lagers than ales I couldn't argue as I don't do many ales and when I do use other acids as I consider them more 'traditional'.

Do, please, think about it and don't dismiss it until you have tried it or at least tried beers brewed by someone else using RO water. There is a revolution coming in the way home brewers (commercial brewers have been doing this for quite a while now) think about their water and the availability of cheap RO systems is at the heart of it.
 
I have not yet looked into it but on the top of my head I cannot think of anyplace in town that sells RO water. I will have to check some of our wholesale locations and see.

You mentioned that the sauermalz adds some subtle flavors to the beer. What type of subtle flavors does it add in your opinion.
 
Unless you want to go from good to excellent beers. People with water of about this level of hardness (don't know about the chloride and sulfate), and I am certainly one, have found that switching to RO made that final jump possible.

There are only a few styles that have shown a need for less hardness than the typical 125 ppm as CaCO3 that 50 ppm of Ca provides. AJ happens to be a proponent and aficiando of those styles, but my preferences lay in ales. If the OP is aiming for those light lager styles, then AJ's recommendations can be valid. But there are definite consequences from brewing with low Ca water. More beerstone potential, lower yeast performance, reduced clarification performance. All of these maladies can be overcome through modified brewing practices and procedures like cleaning equipment more often, pitching more yeast, and using mechanical filtration. If you aren't willing to take those extra steps, then low Ca brewing may not be ideal for brewing. In the case of pretty much all beers with more robust flavor, including adequate Ca concentration in the brewing water is no detriment at all. Using RO water and building water is no guarantee for brewing success over using this moderately hard Tally water. I have had the fortune of my beers scoring as high as 42 at the FL state fair contest, so I'd say someone else could do it too.

By the way, the Tallahassee water has been coming in fairly consistently at 41 ppm Ca and 10 ppm Mg. I wonder if the OP is on the City's water?

No question that preparing RO water for brewing is much simpler than preparing water which must be decarbonated with acid. One either has to calculate the amount of acid to add to neutralize the alkalinity, measure it out and then add it or, in the blind, add the acid, with aeration, to the point where the pH reaches 4.5 - 5.5. The latter approach is easier and, provided the water is stable (i.e. the alkalinity does not vary seasonally or the water company does not blend from/switch between several suppliers) after having done this once the same amount or nearly the same amount will be required each time.

When a brewer's water source is consistent, acidification is going to be no more a burden than having to rebuild RO water into an acceptable brewing liquor. The City of Tallahassee gets all their water from the Floridan Aquifer and the quality is rock steady. When a brewer has a tool like Bru'n Water, figuring out an acid addition is a 10 second ordeal that will probably bring them to tears, but you just have to buck up and do it for the beer!

At this point the water will have 0 (or close to 0) alkalinity but still more acid will be needed in the case of many if not most beers, to get mash pH right and in deciding what acid to use for this one must take into account which acid he used to get rid of the alkalinity as the anion of that acid is still there. Then on top of that one must calculate salt additions required to get chloride, sulfate and calcium levels where he wants them based on the levels in the water. With RO only the last step is required. Seems simpler to me but each must decide for himself.

Bringing brewing liquor to zero alkalinity is probably unnecessary for most styles. Fortunately, in dealing with that total PITA that a brewer has to go through in acidifying their water using the Bru'n Water tool, they also have the ability to moderate that acid addition and actually dial in the appropriate alkalinity needed for their current brew. If you start with RO, you had better have the minerals necessary to add back alkalinity for some styles.

The selection of acid is an important consideration. Lactic from a bottle or acid malt will both contribute that lactate ion that can have a flavor impact. Fortunately in my experience, the level of acidification is not great enough to develop negative flavor impacts when using that acid for Tallahassee water. If a brewer is concerned, then moving to phosphoric, hydrochloric, or sulfuric acids are going to have less potential negative flavor impact.

In this particular case I don't know of any way, with simplicity approaching that of RO, to get the calcium level below 44, and lagers, particular Pilsners, wheat beers, wit beers, Kölschs etc., definitely are improved with calcium at these lower levels(yes, yes, I know that one must have at least 50 ppm calcium but this imperative in unknown in Pilsen, Ceske Budejovice and McLean). I can definitely state that it is worth it to go to RO if obtaining the water itself isn't too nettlesome.

With Tallahassee's moderately hard water, I never saw RO machines in the grocery stores like I see here in the Midwest. Most people like Tallahassee water and it routinely wins the best tasting Florida in the annual AWWA contest. Obtaining RO water in that City may be a PITA unless the brewer is going to pony up for their own system. In my opinion and experience, no brewer in Tally needs or will really benefit from their own RO system. They already make excellent beer and this is further confirmed by multiple World Beer Cup and GABF Gold medals won by Wayne Wambles when he was brewing at Tally's former brewpub, Buckhead Brewery.

Brew On!
 
As you stated above I am on city water and I am brewing just about every style of beer. I am not particularly interested in only brewing one style as of now. I guess with that being said. I will use the regular tap water for my darker beers and adjust my grists for the lighter beers. I appreciate the feedback from a former Tally Brewer...

Oh and I don't plan on getting my own RO system. Just to costly right now..
 
I haven't found anyone that says that acid malt adds any nuances that can't be achieved with other crystal or base malt inclusions. A naturally acidified acid malt could have other acids besides lactic, so I'm assuming that is what AJ is referring to. But since you shouldn't be adding that much acid malt in the first place to avoid flavor impact, I fail to see how acid malt could possibly be a benefit. My original statement stands, acid malt is more expensive, less sure, and no easier to use than a liquid acid.

Tally, I hope you are a NFBL member. They are a great club and I miss them. You are also fortunate to have a great shop like Homebrew Den. Say high to the crew for me!
 
I have not gone to a meeting yet. I plan on going next Thursday when they meet. They do seem like a great club from some of the festivals we have had this year.. HBD is awesome too, they are really helpful and knowledgeable, I go about twice a week. I'll let them know next time I go..
 
You mentioned that the sauermalz adds some subtle flavors to the beer. What type of subtle flavors does it add in your opinion.

To quote Weyermann "Promotes well-rounded, complex beer flavor." That isn't very helpful, is it? But I really cannot do better. It is a specialty malt created in a special way relative to base malt and as such it contributes its own flavors just as any other specialty malt would. I'm afraid I really can't do much better than Weyermann does in describing it. In art (and brewing is an art) beauty comes from nuance and this malt adds nuanced complexity to your beers (lagers for sure anyway). Things are just subtly better than they are if you set mash pH in some other way. I guess you'd really have to try it to see what I'm talking about and that's really what I'm trying to encourage. Don't take anybody's word (including mine) at face value. Experiment! Your palate, your conception of what is a good beer are unique. You may discover that I am, in your opinion, all wet or you may decide I'm a brewing genius or you may decide it doesn't really make much difference either way. But I'm not the only guy that finds this benefit from sauermalz. If I were Weyermann wouldn't be selling it here. This says there is a good chance you will like it too. Give it a shot.
 
Well looks like I am going to do a side by side brew of the same beer one with sauermalz the other without. I'll post my different flavor tastings later.
 
There are only a few styles that have shown a need for less hardness than the typical 125 ppm as CaCO3 that 50 ppm of Ca provides.

No style needs it. You can brew a Pils with harder water if you want to. It is just likely that you will like the beer better if you reduce it. And this extends beyond Pils certainly to the rest of the lager family. Again it really is a matter of personal preference but the trend is towards brewing with lower levels of hardness as the consumers like the beer better.

AJ happens to be a proponent and aficiando of those styles, but my preferences lay in ales.
Then we should recognize that the hardness level depends on what one's personal preferences are and allow that there may indeed be cases where RO is advantageous.

But there are definite consequences from brewing with low Ca water.
Better beer unless you like 'harder' beers and of course some do.


More beerstone potential,
Reminds me of a paper about formation of calcium oxalate. The author said that it could be explained 25% by the thermodynamics, 25% by ionic strength considerations (which I'd consider part of the thermodynamics but that's besides the point and 50% by factors which are not understood. I'm paraphrasing here and don't really remember the exact numbers. The implication that low calcium will increase the probability of its deposition is quite interesting when the medical advice given to the kidney stone fraternity is considered. Some doctors say take a calcium supplement which supports the notion that increased calcium drops it (in the gut vs. the kidneys) but some doctors say drink softened water which supports the idea that no calcium - no calcium oxalate. We wonder if our bretheren in the Pacific Northwest with their RO like water suffer higher incidence of beer stone and I wonder if I suffer it more than others in my area that don't use RO water (and keep it soft). We also wonder how many home brewers have ever experienced it under any condition. Chime in if you have.

Anyway beer stone has never been a problem for me because I take steps to prevent its accumulation with both kegs and fermentors whether I need to or not. Maybe I do need to because I use soft water. Maybe I don't.


lower yeast performance,
This has never been a problem in my experience.


reduced clarification performance.
Never been a problem either. In fact I found that when I went to softer water and used sauermalz to control the pH that my beers dropped clear faster. At least the lagers did. With a dusty yeast it doesn't seem to make much difference but I've never measured it on Kölsch. That's going to be hazy unless you filter it.

All of these maladies can be overcome through modified brewing practices and procedures like cleaning equipment more often, pitching more yeast, and using mechanical filtration. If you aren't willing to take those extra steps, then low Ca brewing may not be ideal for brewing.

I have never been aware that I am doing anything other than using good brewing practices. I clean my equipment, I make starters, I oxygenate as I pitch, I control fermentation temperature. I do this whether I am making a soft water beer or not.

In the case of pretty much all beers with more robust flavor, including adequate Ca concentration in the brewing water is no detriment at all. Using RO water and building water is no guarantee for brewing success over using this moderately hard Tally water.

No, there is no guarantee, but there is a very good chance that appreciable improvement could be realized. I encourage readers to try it and see for themselves. To quote an old Charlie Chan movie: "Mind like parachute. Function best when open."



I have had the fortune of my beers scoring as high as 42 at the FL state fair contest, so I'd say someone else could do it too.

Maybe they could have scored 45.


When a brewer has a tool like Bru'n Water, figuring out an acid addition is a 10 second ordeal that will probably bring them to tears, but you just have to buck up and do it for the beer!
When a brewer has a tool like an RO source it is a 1 second ordeal. Want half the alkalinity? Dilute 1:1. Don't want to mess with alkalinity at all? Use straight RO. You can use a spreadsheet to calculate the mineral supplements of course.




Fortunately, in dealing with that total PITA that a brewer has to go through in acidifying their water using the Bru'n Water tool, they also have the ability to moderate that acid addition and actually dial in the appropriate alkalinity needed for their current brew.

Actually, the computations are pretty complicated but fortunately the error induced by not accounting for the effects of CO2 leaving the solution are small e.g. the case in point if you wanted to knock off 100 ppm of the alkalinity you could simply add 2 mmol/L phosphoric acid and arrive, after agitation, at alkalinity 59 - only 2 ppm off. Note that the complexities from the polyprotic nature of phosphoric acid don't even have to be accounted for.

I'm starting to think that a required or appropriate alkalinity for a brew is an notion whose time has gone (Martin - this thought germinated while thinking about the book). What is required is the amount of acid or base needed to set mash pH correctly. This could be put into the water or it could be put into the mash based on a test mash.


If you start with RO, you had better have the minerals necessary to add back alkalinity for some styles.
Yes. Not a big deal to me as I start from RO water anyway thus giving me total flexibility WRT to what goes into the mash tun (subject, of course, to the laws of physics). I would never, even if I used tap water, try to increase the alkalinity of the water because to do so with calcium bicarbonate, is so difficult and I don't like sodium in my beers. I would use pickling lime in the mash tun and I expect you would too.


The selection of acid is an important consideration.

Yes it is and that's one of the reasons I think it is simpler to use RO than remove alkalinity with acid.



In my opinion and experience, no brewer in Tally needs or will really benefit from their own RO system.
In my opinion and experience they very probably will but that's my opinion and experience. Even so I would never make a statement like: I can defintely tell you that you must use RO as it is the only path to good beer. I will say that there is a good chance that it will and that people should try it and see but I've said that before. Guess I don't understand the resistance to the idea.

They already make excellent beer and this is further confirmed by multiple World Beer Cup...]
The brew pub I'm associated with has also taken medals at GABF but the brewer there recognizes that RO will probably give him a better Pils and Kölsch. We haven't installed the system yet (and won't till I get back south) and of course time will tell but at least he has an open mind.
 
I have to say I've not noticed any flavor nuances coming from acid malt. The only reason I tend to use acid malt more often is because it's easier to measure out small quantities when I want to do a sample mash for a new recipe.
 
I haven't found anyone that says that acid malt adds any nuances that can't be achieved with other crystal or base malt inclusions.

I say it. Weyermann says it (but of course they sell it). Gordon Strong says it (at least I think I remember him saying it in two talks but I am not 100% certain about that). Several people in my club who have drunk my beers have started to use it and I assume they do so because they like the way it tastes - not just because I said to do it.

Why in heavens name would I go looking for another crystal or base malt to get those flavors that come when I use sauermalz given that I need the sauermalz for pH control? To justify using lactic acid instead of sauermalz?

A naturally acidified acid malt could have other acids besides lactic, so I'm assuming that is what AJ is referring to.
All malts contain lots of acids, not just sauermalz. Sauermalz, of course, contains lots more lactic acid than anything else but the other acids are there. Now just as the other acids contribute to the flavors other specialty malts lend to beers so to do the other acids in sauermalz. So I could be describing the effects of those but I could also be describing the flavors that come from, for example, Maillard products induced during kilning. I'm not trying to be coy here. I really don't know what is responsible for these unique flavors any more than I can explain in any detail the flavors that come from Special B.


But since you shouldn't be adding that much acid malt in the first place to avoid flavor impact,...
But this is a beneficial flavor impact (though impact makes it sound more prominent than it is). I often use the analogy of violas in an orchestra. You really don't hear them but if they were not there the music wouldn't sound right. This is a little less subtle than that analogy might lead one to believe but not by much.



...I fail to see how acid malt could possibly be a benefit.
. Mind like parachute. Function best when open. You should sample some beers made with it. Gordon Biersch uses it, or some of their stores do at least, if you have one of those around.


My original statement stands, acid malt is more expensive, less sure, and no easier to use than a liquid acid.

Acid malt is more expensive. The other two parts are untrue. It is easier to use and is just as sure. OK - I'll give you the easier to use because that is a matter of opinion. When brew I weigh out, typically, 1-3 base malts totaling about 80 pounds and 5 - 7 pounds of up to perhaps 3 specialty malts. These sit in stacked Vittles Vaults. The sauermalz is a 4th specialty malt. I pop the lid of a bin, grab the scoop, push tare on the scale and toss in the sauermalz. That takes care of my acid addition. Marginal effort: practically 0. Were I to do it with liquid acid I'd have to locate the bottle, locate a cylinder, measure out the acid, add it to the mash tun, rinse the cylinder, add that to the mash, stir it in thoroughly, clean the cylinder (around my brewery that means at least 6 rinses the last of which is DI) and put it away. And I wouldn't get that extra flavor benefit. In my opinion the former process is vastly simpler as I'm doing it as part of something I'm doing anyway.
 
I have been searching for a little while now and cannot find any info on this. You say that each different grain tends to lower the ph of the mash. Is there a rule of thumb when try to calculate the ph you will hit. Such as if you start with a ph of 8, add 5 lbs of 2-row it lowers the ph X amount, then 3 pounds of Munich it lowers the ph X amount.

Are you able to calculate according to your grist what your ph should come out too?

Also I have been reading about the lactic acid itself and cannot find a place where they describe the quantity needing to be added. Such as if your mash ph was 6.5 and you wanted to lower to 5.2 how much would you need to add. Or is it more of add some mix together retest and continue to add until you hit your desired ph, hoping you don't go too low..

This is all good info guys, thanks
 
Rather than try to find the source material on this I'd suggest you get copies of some of the spreadsheets (Bru'n water, EZ...) and fiddle around with additions of different types of malt to distilled (at first) water and then water with various amounts of mineral content (alkalinity and hardness) will show an effect. Do this with at least 2 spreadsheets. You will get 2 different answers. This is because the different spreadsheets use different models of the malts and of the chemistry which sets mash pH. And that gets us to the experiment until you hit mash pH comment. That is, ultimately, what you should do but the spreadsheets will get you within striking range of the ultimate answer.
 
I can't give you info on calculations of the grains (I use Martin's spreadsheet which is fairly close for me) but I CAN help with the proper amount of acid or base to add in a mash if you miss your pH! I have this chart in my brewery, from Kai Troester's website (braukaiser.com): http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control Scroll to the bottom- it's down there!

I use the spreadsheet (link is above in Mabrungard's signature) to get really close and then have the chart handy in case I miss. I haven't yet, but I have it ready! I also use EZ water to "check my work" but that one is always a bit higher. I've used Kai's as well (on his website I linked above) and his is almost the same as Mabrungard's.

I like having Mabrungard and ajdelange here in the forum, helping people like me. I've found that since I went with RO water for almost all of my beers, using the acid malt that AJdeLange suggested, and using Mabrungard's spreadsheet (as well as all the help they've provided in the forum with water chemistry), I think my beers have gone the "extra distance". They were always good to very good, but conquering water was the really the boost I needed.

One thing I find for me is that I'm actually a big believer in "less is more". I use very little in the way of additions, and my beer is "cleaner" and better. I've used more sulfate in the past, and I like moderation in both the sulfate in chloride in ALL beers, even the hoppiest.
 
I've found that since I went with RO water for almost all of my beers, using the acid malt that AJdeLange suggested, and using Mabrungard's spreadsheet (as well as all the help they've provided in the forum with water chemistry), I think my beers have gone the "extra distance".

Do you think the sauermalz gives the advertized "... well-rounded, complex beer flavor."?

One thing I find for me is that I'm actually a big believer in "less is more". I use very little in the way of additions, and my beer is "cleaner" and better. I've used more sulfate in the past, and I like moderation in both the sulfate in chloride in ALL beers, even the hoppiest.

I think more and more home brewers are beginning to realize this. And craft brewers too. The brewer at my favorite brew pub makes intensely hoppy beers that I actually like and they are good because his sulfate is low out of the tap and he doesn't add gypsum. Lots and lots of hops flavor and the bitterness is there too but it isn't harsh.

Interested in the comment about chloride. It's definitely a plus up to a point (I'm really adding calcium chloride for the chloride as much as the calcium) but I don't know where that point is. How much are you using?
 
Do you think the sauermalz gives the advertized "... well-rounded, complex beer flavor."?

Not that I've noticed, sorry to say! BUT, and this is a big but- I haven't made a light lager or lighter ale since I bought the RO system and seriously looked at my alkalinity issues. I was mixing RO water and tap water, but didn't check pH with a meter until January.

My last BoPils was 100% RO water (last winter) but I don't recall it being more complex than without the sauermaltz. Of course, it was a triple decoction and so if there was any well-rounded or complex flavor, I would have attributed it to the decoctions.

I do mostly IPAs, American ambers, and APAs with an odd English ale, a stout or two, and then a few lagers a year.

I LOVE my IPAs now. I've found that I hit my desired pH each and every time, with Mabrungard's spreadsheet, using 1-2% sauermaltz and few additions to the RO water (generally 5 grams of gypsum and 3 grams of CaCl2 to my mash). I sparge with RO water.

Now, is the well-rounded flavor but firm bittering (but not harsh) due to the RO water, the tiny amount of gypsum, the perfect mash pH, or the acid malt? I cannot say.

I know that even though ajdelange is not an IPA guy that I would hand both him and Mabrungard one of those IPAs and both would like them. Maybe my sulfate would be a little low for Martin's taste, maybe not. But he'd like it, even IF the sulfate was lower than he'd like. The important thing is that to my taste, it's just right, and I'm proud to serve those beers.
 
I'm with AJ on optimality. I like to use a simple criteria to rate how enjoyable a beer is. If a beer is drinkable, but not really enjoyable...that's a 1 beer rating. In other words, I'd only drink 1 glass of it. If the beer is really good, but still has a nuance or two that would keep me from drinking a lot of it...that's a 2 beer rating. If the beer is great and I'd probably keep drinking it all that way to 3 glasses, then its a 3 beer rating. Obviously this doesn't really work with a strongly flavored beer or a high gravity beer just because you would be fatigued, but its a decent criteria for deciding how great a beer is. We have our style guidelines and they are helpful, but for a commercial venture, this criteria ends up being more important to sales.

I have to admit that my next pale ale will be brewed with a much lower sulfate content to test AJ's advice on using a reduced sulfate content in beer. Since I've brewed my standard PA probably 2 dozen times, it should be a good test of my perception of an identical recipe. The good thing is that I can always add the missing sulfate to the keg if I find the test result is not to my liking. Maybe AJ is Obi Wan and I need to learn to use the force. Mr. Chloride may be right, I'll have to find out.

Yooper, has the pH prediction in Bru'n Water been accurate with acid malt? I don't use that malt, so I haven't had a chance to verify its accuracy. When I first included acid malt in the program, I used Kai's acidity value and the result was no where near the 0.1 pH drop for 1% rule of thumb that Weyermann quotes. The revised acidity I include for acid malt now produces approximately that effect. I'd be happy to hear your findings.
 
Yooper, has the pH prediction in Bru'n Water been accurate with acid malt? I don't use that malt, so I haven't had a chance to verify its accuracy. When I first included acid malt in the program, I used Kai's acidity value and the result was no where near the 0.1 pH drop for 1% rule of thumb that Weyermann quotes. The revised acidity I include for acid malt now produces approximately that effect. I'd be happy to hear your findings.

Yes, it's been pretty accurate. If anything, I miss a wee bit low (say, 5.35 instead of the predicted 5.4 which is in the error of my pH meter, I assume) so I normally try to aim a bit higher and do ok. I also figure I can easily bring it down with a bit of phosphoric or lactic acid, but it's much harder to bring it UP! I normally use very little acid malt- maybe 1.5-2% depending on the grainbill. Often it's only 3 ounces or so in a typical APA batch for me.
 
If the beer is great and I'd probably keep drinking it all that way to 3 glasses, then its a 3 beer rating.
When you get to be my age it doesn't matter how good the beer is. More than 3 and you're asleep.



... test AJ's advice on using a reduced sulfate content in beer.
Remember that the recommendation is to try lower sulfate. No guarantee that you'll like it but based on what people tell me the chances are good enough that you will that it's worth a shot.
 
So I input what I believe is the correct information in the excel sheet and it says it is unbalanced. Have I entered the information into the spreadsheet incorrectly. I have recently finished a blue moon clone and it has a little bit of an off flavor, but I can pinpoint what it is. Will the high alkalinity cause certain off flavors.

Picture 11.jpg
 
So I input what I believe is the correct information in the excel sheet and it says it is unbalanced. Have I entered the information into the spreadsheet incorrectly.

You may have made a data entry error but you have also been given bad data. Bad in the sense that not a single one of those numbers is exactly correct. There are a variety of ways in which this can happen:

1. The data comes from a lab:
1a. No laboratory measurement method produces exact results.
1b. The lab does not test for every element. For example most wouldn't test for strontium and some waters in the US have a fair amount of it.
1c. A particular test may be subject to interference. For example, the traditional way to test for calcium and magnesium responds to strontium. Thus if strontium is present the calcium and magnesium numbers will be in error.
1d. The lab may do its math wrong. For example, Ward labs calculates carbonate and bicarbonate using an old approximate method which does not return actual carbonate and bicarbonate levels.

2. The data comes from a water supplier
2a. They have a lab and all the comments from 1 apply in addition to which
2b. They usually report averages over some time period e.g. month or year.
2c. Water authorities often test for one parameter on say, Monday and
another on Thursday.

A single water sample should balance. Averages and data on samples taken at different times cannot be expected to balance.

I have recently finished a blue moon clone and it has a little bit of an off flavor, but I can pinpoint what it is. Will the high alkalinity cause certain off flavors.

High alkalinity, if not neutralized with acid, results in high mash pH. This dulls all flavors.
 
The water sample was taken at the same time, however the tests were done over a period of a week, according to the lab. So I guess I shouldn't worry about them balancing out then.
 
Tally,

Yes the values you entered into the sheet are incorrect. Most particularly, the bicarbonate content is way off. The typical profile for the City's water is below.

Tallahassee Water (all in ppm) Ca:41 Mg:10 Na:3 SO4:5 Cl:6 HCO3:168

For that Wit, the alkalinity of Tallahassee water would produce far too high a mash pH unless proper acidification was performed on the mash and sparging water. The result is a darker color than desired and a dry harshness from the hopping and possibly from tannin extraction.
 
Alright so I am brewing a Doppel Bock this weekend and when I input my information into the Brun Water spreadsheet and it says that my mash PH is going to be too low (4.5). When I try to adjust my additions to bring up the mash PH, nothing changes. I try to add some minerals to bring up the mash ph but it doesn't change my mash ph. Can anyone offer any info on how much I should add.
Its a 5 gallon batch 8# munich malt, 3.2# Us-2row, 3.2# weyermann pale malt, 1.4# Cara 45L, .25# De-husked carafa I.
Thanks for the help..
 

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