Beer Philosophy - "Good" Beer and Samuel Adams

I used to love everything that Samuel Adams made. Like many people, the beers they make were my stepping stones into the craft beer universe. But now, after having tried other beers and having made my own, I find the Samuel Adams beers to be a bit bland in comparison.

My question is:

Is there an essential level at which a beer must be to be considered "good beer," or is it all relative? I have a beer in mind that currently stands as the best beer I've had. I'm sure I will find one in the future that I think is even better. But at the moment, this beer is a 10 out of 10, just as a Samuel Adams was a while back.

We can't possibly know when we taste a beer whether it is only so many out of 10, comparing it to what we imagine the best beer would taste like. When we taste our favorite beer, it's a 10! Period. We taste empirically, and can't ever accurately place a beer in a universal spectrum of "good" or quality, simply because we've never had all the beers in the world.

This explains why at one point, when Samuel Adams was the brewery that made the best beer I'd had, I thought it to be the best and now think differently. It kind of disappoints to see this happen, like watching your favorite childhood movie and realizing it sucks.

Just my thoughts.

I guess I'm looking to see what people think of this idea that at any point in time, the best beer you've had is a 10 out of 10 simply because it's the best beer you've had, and because you couldn't predict the quality and ranking of any possible beers you may one day try.

Has anyone ever tried a beer, thought it to be the best they've ever had, yet still thought, "not a 10 out of 10, because I think there may be better?"

Man that's a tough question. You've opened the whole aesthetic theory section of philosophy can of worms. Is there a platonic form of the ideal beer? I dunno man. I'd say it's all relative, though we can have ideas of what we think is the best. Whatever it is, I haven't found mine yet...

the next beer is always best. because it's full and not half empty. i don't buy into that half full bull ****. call it what you want, just refill my glass

I seriously hate the whole idea of making lists of top 10 picking favorites. so much depends on mood, timing, whatever. this goes for beer, music, movies, books, comics, food, etc. If you wanted me to even attempt to tell you my favorites for any of those, I think a "Top 50" would be my minimum. 'Cause #17 could be my favorite tomorrow, or in an hour.

rhern053 said:

Is there an essential level at which a beer must be to be considered "good beer," or is it all relative?

Click to expand...

It is absolutely essential that you enjoy the beer. That is all that is essential for a beer to be "good" beer.

Airborneguy said:

It is absolutely essential that you enjoy the beer. That is all that is essential for a beer to be "good" beer.

Click to expand...

Any beer is good if you can taste the brewer's intentions. A beer is very good when they execute on those intentions. A beer is great when the drinker agrees with those intentions.

The only part I disagree with is the brewer's intentions, especially homebrewers. I've had some beers where the brewer's intentions were just plain stupid. Call me an a-hole, but most Dogfishead beers fit that bill for me.

That said, remember what I wrote: a good beer is one YOU enjoy. The person enjoying it can be anyone, and all our tastes are different. In other words, EVERY beer is good in the hands (and mouth) of the right person.

I think I'd have to bring style into the discussion. I don't think I could choose my most favorite beer, but I certainly could pick my favorite porter or IPA or pale ale etc.

Airborneguy said:

The only part I disagree with is the brewer's intentions, especially homebrewers. I've had some beers where the brewer's intentions were just plain stupid. Call me an a-hole, but most Dogfishead beers fit that bill for me.

That said, remember what I wrote: a good beer is one YOU enjoy. The person enjoying it can be anyone, and all our tastes are different. In other words, EVERY beer is good in the hands (and mouth) of the right person.

Click to expand...

See, I feel like I can taste a beer and know when it is good, but just not my taste. 'course there are extremes where this wouldn't be true, but I think a lot of the time I can separate my personal preferences from what makes a beer "good."

Brooklyn-Brewtality said:

I seriously hate the whole idea of making lists of top 10 picking favorites. so much depends on mood, timing, whatever. this goes for beer, music, movies, books, comics, food, etc. If you wanted me to even attempt to tell you my favorites for any of those, I think a "Top 50" would be my minimum. 'Cause #17 could be my favorite tomorrow, or in an hour.

Click to expand...

+1 With food and drink, there is so much else that goes on to feeds into your perceptions and reactions. Are you relaxed, enjoying the people you're with, etc? Hard day at work? Ticked off at your kids/parents? The same beer can seem better or worse depending upon the circumstances and context.

Airborneguy said:

a good beer is one YOU enjoy.

Click to expand...

This is all that there is about it.

Bud, Bud Light, Bud light lime, Bud chelada are the best beers for those folks who drink them. And evidently more folks on the planet choose those (especially the first two) than any other beers.

For beer geeks like us, it may be something else enitirely, or conversely it may be difficult for us to pick a best beer, because we have a broader palette to chose from. (I personally have favorites in different styles, but even that can change from mood or whim, or discovering something new.)

But our choice is no better or worse than the guy who chooses bud light as their tipple.

Good or bad, better or worse, they're all subjective terms. It's all about what we choose to stick down our throats at any given time.

There was a time when Mickey's was a good beer to me. Of course that was when I was 14 and small enough to get loaded both Friday and Saturday off the same 40oz. Now, I'm with the crowd that says it's relative to time, situation, food, etc.

chicagobrew said:

There was a time when Mickey's was a good beer to me.

Click to expand...

Hah too funny. I remember that too along with OE and a few others but I'm not sure I ever thought they were good beer even back then. I was just young and broke and couldn't afford anything better at the time. It is all relative though isn't it.

My favorite beer is the one I haven't had yet. While I have a few "familiar" beers that make it into regular rotation, I really like trying new beer. Nothings better than that first sip of a beer you've never had, or haven't had in years. Experiencing the unique flavor of that beer is paramount to nothing else. For me, anyway.

But heck, I'll drink Bud Light at the bar watching football and eating wings with the boys. And I'll enjoy it, too!

mikebowman said:

Man that's a tough question. You've opened the whole aesthetic theory section of philosophy can of worms. Is there a platonic form of the ideal beer? I dunno man. I'd say it's all relative, though we can have ideas of what we think is the best. Whatever it is, I haven't found mine yet...

Click to expand...

Yeah! I mean this is exactly what I was thinking when I posed the question, but I should've known it would become a thread about how taste in beer is subjective.

The true question is, when you taste the best beer you've ever had, can you still imagine one better?

Its cyclical. Sometimes I only want hop monsters, sometime nothing beats an RIS, sometimes I'm feeling malty. I think our taste evolves, specially when we begin homebrewing and really start evaluating beer. You can train your palate to pick out certain qualities or defects that you couldn't before. You start usuing the word "complex" and "character". You begin to appreciate different things.

Then sometimes you sit back and have one of the sam adams that got you here in the first place and realize that its still a delicious beer.

People rip on Sam Adams a bit much, IMO. Sure not every beer is good, but they definitely make beers I enjoy. I think of them kind of like Magic Hat... they don't usually wow me, but damn are they nice beers for sitting back and drinking two or three.

rhern053 said:

The true question is, when you taste the best beer you've ever had, can you still imagine one better?

Click to expand...

Yes. I can't think of a time when I've had a beer when I wouldn't have thought that it was possible to enjoy another beer as much or more.

I disagree with the theory that it's all relative based on the idea that it makes it possible to correctly state that budlight is 10/10. I refuse to agree with any theory which allows this sort of thing regardless of how much sense it may otherwise make. But, if you'll allow the distinction that while there isn't an objectively "best" beer, there are objectively disgusting horse piss beers then I agree.

I don't see a "best beer" overall. I don't think it's possible to declare a best beer ever. But in each style, sure. I have an idea of what I consider the best beer of each style. I don't ever say it cannot be beaten because sometimes I find one that eclipses what I thought was the best, it then is the best to me.

If you told me you wanted to try the best Sour Ale ever, I would point you toward my favorite. But if you asked Revvy the same question you could likely get a different answer. It's all relative to the taster.

I can say that even when drinking the best beer ever I can look forward to a new best beer ever. Otherwise I would have stopped trying new beers and only drank the one I previously thought was the best ever since there would be no chance of ever topping it.

I agree with bovine that it seems a lot of people ride SA pretty hard. For my money I think they have about the best light beer, and a few staples that are just nice to kick back with and help replenish the bottle tree for the next batch of homebrew with. I'd say the majority of my bottles have a SA label on them. They are kind of like the Outback Steakhouse of beers. Pretty good product, not perfect, but at least you know what you're getting.

rhern053 said:

The true question is, when you taste the best beer you've ever had, can you still imagine one better?

Click to expand...

tough. i would say that if i thought about weather a beer could be better than the beer that i'm having that is at that moment the best beer that i've had so far, then i would probably try to pick out what i would want more or less of in the beer. also i get in moods where i want more of a certain type of beer, like if im really into a crisp, hoppy beer at the moment, then a thick malty one wouldn't do it for me, even though in general i may chose that as the better beer. but what i usually do is enjoy the beer i'm having, if my mind is saying its perfect, then i go with that. i can argue with my brain later, when i'm done with the "best beer i've ever had".

also some one said they enjoy the first sip of a new beer the most. i'm gonna have to combine watching the pint being poured, giving a quick look, and smell, first sip, initial impression and second sip (which tends to be my deciding factor) all together as my favorite part of a beer (espicially a great one).

mikebowman said:

Man that's a tough question. You've opened the whole aesthetic theory section of philosophy can of worms. Is there a platonic form of the ideal beer? I dunno man. I'd say it's all relative, though we can have ideas of what we think is the best. Whatever it is, I haven't found mine yet...

Click to expand...

Do we approach the question like philosophers, or like homebrewers? That really would matter to the answer I give.

If I'm answering like a philosopher, I'd approach it like this:

When considering the question "Is there a 'best' beer?" we first have to determine what "best" means in this context - we need a agreed-upon definition of the word before we can use it properly. What properties must be included in "best"? Flavor? Style conformity? Drinking experience? Head? Efficiency? SRM? If we don't know what "best" means, how can we proceed to analyze beer and select a "best" beer?

If I were to answer like a homebrewer, I'd approach it like this:

The best beer is whatever beer I enjoy the most at a given time - often, that's either the beer I'm about to drink or the beer that I am drinking.

i nominate this be a split thread, where you can either say what the "best" beer you've ever had, or your favorite. or you can try to say how the best beer should be defined. (so either philosophy or just say what beer you like best)
anyone else?

qbst said:

Do we approach the question like philosophers, or like homebrewers? That really would matter to the answer I give.

Click to expand...

Good question! I was hoping responses would be from a philosophical standpoint but influenced by homebrewing experience and thus a pretty fair balance of the two.

It's kind of a given that taste in beer is occasion-specific and absolutely relative. It's really a question of one's own personal taste in beer, and asking yourself the question in that scope.

The best beer I've ever had (which of course is subjective to my taste) is a 60 minute IPA. I know that I'll find a new favorite, but when I taste a 60 minute, I really cannot imagine how a beer could possibly be better. It's only until I actually find it that I realize. Anyways, this is where the question arose in my head.

Another way to pose this question is:
Can you, without brewing it, think of the greatest beer (subjectively of course) and imagine what it would be like?

And yeah of course this should be about favorite beers/philosophy! I don't want to bogart the thread with academic mumbo jumbo.

i always imagined a beer that was like eating a really good loaf of bread. the only problem i've found is that beers that are real malty tend to have higher abv, so you tasted more alcohol. and they tend to be kinda syrup-y. so i have this great taste in my head, i'll just have to see if i can make it. gives me something to work at atleast.

If we go with "Best" meaning 'that which produces the most good' and agree with Plato's and Aristotle's assessment that the good life is one of thought and philosophy, then it almost has to be Ommegang's Three Philosophers. Aside from being delicious, it brings to mind a few of the philosophy greats and in doing so stands the best chance of propelling the drinker into the thoughtful state viewed as good. Now we just need a few more beers to represent the moderns.

Dome555 said:

If we go with "Best" meaning 'that which produces the most good' and agree with Plato's and Aristotle's assessment that the good life is one of thought and philosophy, then it almost has to be Ommegang's Three Philosophers. Aside from being delicious, it brings to mind a few of the philosophy greats and in doing so stands the best chance of propelling the drinker into the thoughtful state viewed as good. Now we just need a few more beers to represent the moderns.

Click to expand...

Mmm I haven't had that in forever. I always wind up going with the Abbey Ale, I can't get enough.