argue benefits of different chilling methods

I know I'm new here. And I'm asking a lot of questions. But that's not because I'm new. I've done a helluva lot of brewing in the past. But it's been seven years. So basically, what I've been doing is reevaluating all of my old beliefs, rethinking my old techniques and just kind of going ovwe everything. I'm faced with an entirely new brewing environment in Zagreb than I had in Portland, so it's partially that. But it's also that I don't want to get stuck in my ways when some things could possibly work better.

Anyway, so onto it. I currently have an old counterflow chiller. But it's been sitting there for seven years. And I'm wondering how possible it is to even get it clean. Sure it must be possible. But it made me think and I've been reading a lot and listening to BrewStrong and just soaking up info.

Here are my thoughts currently on the various cooling methods (and not cooling methods). Please feel free to add your thoughts. That's what this thread is for.

1. Immersion Chiller.

I used one long ago and was just never happy with how long it took to cool the wort. So long ago, that I don't remember how long it took, but I switched to a counterflow chiller.

But my thinking now is that this might actually be the best way to go. If it takes 45 minutes to an hour to chill, so what? The benefit I see is mainly that I can really clean this and SEE that it's clean. I can scrub the hell out of it, I can entirely immerse it in boiling water or wort. It's simple. And it's possible to truly get it clean and know it's clean. Also during chilling, I can get a cold break in the kettle that I can partially rack off of when I rack off the hotbreak. Seems like this might be the best one for me now.

2. Counterflow chiller.

Like I said, I used one. A lot. Maybe 60 batches with one. And it was quicker than an immersion chiller. But that seems to be it's main draw. Cleaning it internally requires much more chemicals and many more rinses. And I now live in an area with immensely hard water. Vinegar rinse may do it, sure. But it seems like this option involves more work and worries, possibly.

3. Plate heat exchanger.

This one is appealing to me partially because it's a new gadget. And I like new gadgets. And it may require far less water to chill the beer, which is good. But, those little crevices can clog. Maybe they won't. But if you use hop pellets, which I want to do, then I'd really have to be anal and take extra care about removing those pellets. I live somewhere were it's hard to get hops, so gotta use mail order. So thinking pellets. They store better. Anyway, seems like cleaning this would be similar to a CFC, but with the benefit that you can throw it in a pot and boil it, you can bake it to kill everything etc. Seems the main concern is clogging.

4. No chill.

Seen a few posts about this but don't think I will be doing this. See if you can sway me if you're so inclined.

Anyway, as it goes, the one that with my current thinking involves perhaps the least amount of work and worry is the immersion chiller. So that's what I'm leaning towards. Please share your thoughts and add any methods I may not have considered. Ice baths aren't an option for me. I don't have a bath tub.

Well, you're definitely applying some good reasoning to this!

I've been using a counterflow chiller for years, and it's always worked very well for me. Chill times vary depending on the temperature of the water-- during the summer I usually use a pre-chiller to get the temp down, other times it's not necessary. My average time to chill the wort down to ~65 deg. F. is around 45 min. or an hour, and that seems to give me a good cold break. The temperature drop is most likely not linear, so the fastest cooling is taking place at the beginning.

All that said, I am considering moving up to a Therminator (plate chiller) or something similar, because 45 minutes is still 45 minutes, and I'm always looking for ways to decrease the length of my brew day. I haven't thought too much about the hops/clogging issue, but I would guess that a filter in the brew pot would keep most, if not all, of it out of the plate chiller. From what I understand, the plate chillers are designed so that the internal pathway is smooth with no sharp corners or bends that would tend to trap materials-- they should be easy to clean.

But for now, I'm very happy with the immersion chiller, and it was cheap and easy to make.

-Steve

There's a thread here on plate heat exchangers, BTW. And from the sounds of it, people using the paint strainer bags *and* hop pellets can use them okay.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/i-have-had-my-plate-chiller-115640/

Thanks for the input, Steve. For me, that quick chilling on these make them a draw. So, still thinking and considering.

Also for stainless plate heat exchangers, how do you guys passivate the interior stainless? The brewstrong guys said that aerated water can work for that, but wondering what works for you guys? Need to get air on the SS, right?

MattHollingsworth said:

1. Immersion Chiller. . . If it takes 45 minutes to an hour to chill, so what? The benefit I see is mainly that I can really clean this and SEE that it's clean. I can scrub the hell out of it, I can entirely immerse it in boiling water or wort.

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I didn't see that you mentioned batch size or the size of your IC, but with a 50' x 3/8" diameter IC I can chill six gallons from boiling to 65 degrees in less than a half hour. In the winter when the tap water is colder, it's much less. Personally, I like the idea of chilling the entire batch uniformly.

My opinion is bias because I don't have experience with the other two methods.

AnOldUR said:

I didn't see that you mentioned batch size or the size of your IC, but with a 50' x 3/8" diameter IC I can chill six gallons from boiling to 65 degrees in less than a half hour. In the winter when the tap water is colder, it's much less. Personally, I like the idea of chilling the entire batch uniformly.

My opinion is bias because I don't have experience with the other two methods.

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Cool. Don't remember it going that fast. I should have somewhere around 6 gallons of wort at the end of the boil.

Thanks for the info.

MattHollingsworth said:

Don't remember it going that fast.

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Disclaimer:

When I’m in a hurry here’s the environmentally unfriendly (but fast) IC method.

Bucket with pond pump, ice in bucket with steady flow of cold tap water into bucket. No recirculation. Gently stir wort with one hand and ice bucket water with other.

I don't add the ice to the bucket until the wort hits about 150, so a single batch from the refridgerators ice maker will last to the end of chilling.

Edit:
Never checked, but guess this method wastes 20-30 gallons of water.


If I'm not rushed, I'll recirculate after the initial temperature drop, but it adds 15-30 minutes and requires using frozen water bottles in the bucket along with ice.

the immersion chiller should get you down to pitching temps in 15-20 minutes if you stir the wort while running the IC. I have a CFC and it works well. I run boiling wort through it to sanitize, then rinse with water and then star-san after I'm done brewing, rinsing again before starting. If my setup would allow IC use I might even go back to that.

My CFC seems to be a pain to clean sometimes but only because I bolt it on my frame and have to take it off to clean. All I do is flush it with tap water and then put it in my sanitizer bucket after I pull my other hardware out to dry. Then I take the CFC out after 10 minutes to an hour and let it dry while moving it around to spiral out the sanitizer. After a day or two when I think it is mostly dry I cap the ends until next brew day where I dunk it again in sanitizer prior to use.

I have yet to have an infected batch even when I used an IC but I really like the peace of mind I get from chilling and transferring directly to my fermentor in a closed enviroment.

The discussion about cooling times with any method always need to include what the user's tap water temperature range is.

You could argue that if your tap water ever gets warmer than 80F, you'll need some kind of ice solution at some time. In that case, one of the most practical setups is the IC with icewater pump. In seasons of cold tap water, you can use it directly. When it warms up, you can pump Icewater. The big benefit to the IC is that you can continue cooling until you decide to stop. External exchangers require a bit of juggling to get the output temp just right. Of course, you CAN recirculate the wort back into the kettle to get the same effect but that's not really how they were meant to be used. This is really why I say that no matter what pro/con you list for a chilling method, someone will point out a workaround.

Bobby_M said:

The discussion about cooling times with any method always need to include what the user's tap water temperature range is.

You could argue that if your tap water ever gets warmer than 80F, you'll need some kind of ice solution at some time. In that case, one of the most practical setups is the IC with icewater pump. In seasons of cold tap water, you can use it directly. When it warms up, you can pump Icewater. The big benefit to the IC is that you can continue cooling until you decide to stop. External exchangers require a bit of juggling to get the output temp just right. Of course, you CAN recirculate the wort back into the kettle to get the same effect but that's not really how they were meant to be used. This is really why I say that no matter what pro/con you list for a chilling method, someone will point out a workaround.

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Sure. But I don't want to have an ice bath of any kind as part of my regular routine. Getting a specific temp with a CFC was never a problem for me. I would measure the temp as it came out and if it was too high, just slow the flow until it's what you want. And always have those temperature strips on the carboy, so I can see what the temp is after it reaches that level.

There are workarounds for nearly everything in this hobby we have. Want to see what people generally prefer even when it does include their own workarounds. But me, I'm lazy. I'd rather not create ten steps to do something that one step can do.

And dunno the summer tap water temp here. We'll see soon enough though! Don't remember it being more than maybe 70 or so. Think it stays pretty cool.

TommyBoy said:

My CFC seems to be a pain to clean sometimes but only because I bolt it on my frame and have to take it off to clean. All I do is flush it with tap water and then put it in my sanitizer bucket after I pull my other hardware out to dry. Then I take the CFC out after 10 minutes to an hour and let it dry while moving it around to spiral out the sanitizer. After a day or two when I think it is mostly dry I cap the ends until next brew day where I dunk it again in sanitizer prior to use.

I have yet to have an infected batch even when I used an IC but I really like the peace of mind I get from chilling and transferring directly to my fermentor in a closed enviroment.

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Are you using anything other than water to clean it? If not, you should consider that you need to. You may not have a problem yet, but you likely will unless you're doing something more than just straight water to remove buildup.

Both CFCs and plate exchangers are capable of wort output temps a few degrees above the incoming tap temp. In comparing those two, the plate is slightly more efficient and it's more physically compact. It requires a bit more fine straining of the incoming wort but that can be accomplished with a hop bag or bazooka tube type strainer on the siphon tube. I don't stress about cleaning with either because I recirculate boiling wort through it for about 5 minutes before flameout. Every few brews I'll heat some oxiclean solution up to about 170F and circulate that through. With hard water, PBW might be better.

Bobby_M said:

Both CFCs and plate exchangers are capable of wort output temps a few degrees above the incoming tap temp. In comparing those two, the plate is slightly more efficient and it's more physically compact. It requires a bit more fine straining of the incoming wort but that can be accomplished with a hop bag or bazooka tube type strainer on the siphon tube. I don't stress about cleaning with either because I recirculate boiling wort through it for about 5 minutes before flameout. Every few brews I'll heat some oxiclean solution up to about 170F and circulate that through. With hard water, PBW might be better.

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Thanks man. What's the bazooka tube strainer? I don't have a side outlet, it's just a basic ss kettle. I will be siphoning off, so am curious. In the past, I'd always used a stainless scrubby on the end of the siphon tube. Is that bazooka tube strainer something that you snap onto your siphon?

Yeah, the bazooka is just a coarse mesh tube with a fitting on one end. It seems to use something like a 16x16 mesh size meaning the holes are about a millimeter. You can make your own with some stainless screening.

I know a lot of people siphon over the top of their kettle for a CFC or plate but it's got to be a bit more work than bulkhead draining.

50' of 1/2" copper combined with Jamil's recirculating method brings 16.5 gallons of wort from 212 degrees to 139 in under 5 minutes. Total time to bring it to 80 degrees was 30 minutes. I save my output water in 60 gallon drums for later use or use the hot water to clean kegs.



Connect a ice water recirculating pump to the system after it hits 100 degrees and you can get lager temps very quick.



I like the ease of cleaning and knowing my wort will not clog it.

MattHollingsworth said:

Are you using anything other than water to clean it? If not, you should consider that you need to. You may not have a problem yet, but you likely will unless you're doing something more than just straight water to remove buildup.

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I did soak it in plain soapy water the last time in the sink.
I would like to put a valve on a 5 gallon bucket and hook the CFC and pump up to it to circulate for a few minutes after brewing. Been procrastinating though. I guess I really should get a move on it.

TommyBoy said:

I did soak it in plain soapy water the last time in the sink.
I would like to put a valve on a 5 gallon bucket and hook the CFC and pump up to it to circulate for a few minutes after brewing. Been procrastinating though. I guess I really should get a move on it.

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You can run PBW (or probably OxiClean) into the unit and let it sit for 15 minutes or something, then rinse with hot water. You don't need a pump for that.

I use an IC: 50 foot copper in a narrow, 7.5 gal aluminum pot for 5 gal batches. Give it a stir every couple minutes and it goes from 212 to 110 in about 10 minutes. When the tap water temp is > 70 F (summer), I hook up the IC to a small aquarium pump in an ice chest/ice water bath and recirculate. Brings it down to 70 F in 10 more minutes. Lager temps somewhat longer.

I'm using an IC, in the winter I get to pitch temps in 1/2 hour. It takes longer in the summer but still under 45 minutes.

During the summer I save the first 5 or 10 gallons for cleaning duties. After that I save the rest back for watering my trees or plants, or I hook up the hose to a sprinkler and let it water the grass.

I like leaving the cold break behind, so I think I'll stick with the IC.

EdWort said:

Jamil's recirculating method

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Great link. And thanks for all the input, everyone.

TommyBoy said:

I did soak it in plain soapy water the last time in the sink.
I would like to put a valve on a 5 gallon bucket and hook the CFC and pump up to it to circulate for a few minutes after brewing. Been procrastinating though. I guess I really should get a move on it.

Click to expand...

There's some good info on cleaning and sanitizing in the BrewStrong show.

This page here has both shows to download if yer curious:

The Brewing Network.com - Shows and Podcasts: Brew Strong

Are you open to using a pump?

Put an IC in your lauter tun, fill the lauter tun with ice water. Pump your wort out of the BK through the chilled IC then back into the BK.

The March Pump that is popular on HBT has a GPM of 7.5. For a 5 gallon batch you're recirculating all the wort once per minute through the ice bath.

I haven't built this yet so I can't give you the cool time, but it has to be pretty quick. There is an older thread here that details this method.

Naw, no pumps for me. Thanks though.

+1 on JZ's IC + Whirlpool. If you're not into using a pump, though, I dont think that will work, as it is necessary for the whirlpool.

If you're pump free, then I would really just say add an ice bath to your IC and thats the best bet. I have no clue how much water goes into the ice I buy, but I imagine using the icebath actually reduces the amount of water used without one, since it cools so much quicker, and it resolves the problems of having 80 degree tap water.

oberon567 said:

+1 on JZ's IC + Whirlpool. If you're not into using a pump, though, I dont think that will work, as it is necessary for the whirlpool.

If you're pump free, then I would really just say add an ice bath to your IC and thats the best bet. I have no clue how much water goes into the ice I buy, but I imagine using the icebath actually reduces the amount of water used without one, since it cools so much quicker, and it resolves the problems of having 80 degree tap water.

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Yeah, his setup sounds great and everything. But I don't really wanna use pumps at least not now. I think I've pretty much settled on IC. What I have now is CFC, so I will take a look at that when I'm home in 2+ weeks (we're at the sea now) and see what it looks like for converting. I think I'll see how the tap water does here first and see how happy I am with it before introducing a more complex system. I'd rather start simple. And would rather STAY simple if it works.

MattHollingsworth said:

I'd rather start simple. And would rather STAY simple if it works.

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Ok easy, get two large tubs or bins, fill one with tap water to absorb the initial heat of the kettle, insert hot kettle, add some ice to the second one and switch tubs to bring you to pitching temps. Works year round regardless of tap water temp.

wilserbrewer said:

Ok easy, get two large tubs or bins, fill one with tap water to absorb the initial heat of the kettle, insert hot kettle, add some ice to the second one and switch tubs to bring you to pitching temps. Works year round regardless of tap water temp.

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No thanks. I'll likely be going with IC. I did this method you describe about ten years ago and it's not for me.

IC works well for most folk. If you have a decent length of hose hooked up to your IC, get yourself a large tub or bin, put it close to your brewpot, put a layer of ice on the bottom, coil all of your excess hose in there, and then fill it with ice, maybe a bit of rocksalt, and water. And then use your IC like normal. At least that way the water you use in your IC will be as cold as you can get it.

PS - I just took a look at some of your inking work... Your resume says this on its own, but very impressive.

MattHollingsworth said:

There's some good info on cleaning and sanitizing in the BrewStrong show.

This page here has both shows to download if yer curious:

The Brewing Network.com - Shows and Podcasts: Brew Strong

Click to expand...

I'll definitely check it out. Thanks!

MattHollingsworth said:

Naw, no pumps for me. Thanks though.

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What about if it is Swedish made?

TommyBoy said:

I'll definitely check it out. Thanks!

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Cool. Trying to help out. Basically, in the cleaning segment they make the point that proper cleaning is almost more important than sanitizing. If you really clean your stuff properly, there's not much there for the nasties to eat and grow on. I haven't listened to the sanitizing one yet though.

oberon567 said:

IC works well for most folk. If you have a decent length of hose hooked up to your IC, get yourself a large tub or bin, put it close to your brewpot, put a layer of ice on the bottom, coil all of your excess hose in there, and then fill it with ice, maybe a bit of rocksalt, and water. And then use your IC like normal. At least that way the water you use in your IC will be as cold as you can get it.

PS - I just took a look at some of your inking work... Your resume says this on its own, but very impressive.

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Yeah, I'll see what I can hook up for getting the water colder. And thanks for the compliments. I'm a colorist, though. The inker does the inks.

;-)

Basically means I'm given the black and white art and then paint it digitally.

TommyBoy said:

What about if it is Swedish made?

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Well then...

arturo7 said:

The March Pump that is popular on HBT has a GPM of 7.5. For a 5 gallon batch you're recirculating all the wort once per minute through the ice bath.

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Unfortunately, the actual recirculation rate will be substantially less than 7.5 GPM through the hoses and chiller. Probably something less than half that rate would be a more realistic estimate. A lot depends on the tubing size and length of the chiller and hoses.

Well, I have had good luck with the IC route and some form of mixer to keep the wort moving. I use a 25' x 3/8" OD copper chiller (tap water temp 7-10C/44-50F) and I can chill 24L/6.3USgal of wort from boiling to 18C/64F in 10-15 min. The key is to keep the wort moving. I use a sanitized spoon to stir the wort until the temp gets down below 70C (usually only a couple of minutes), after which time I switch to a sanitized drill powered mixer (Paint Mixers | SquirrelMixer). By keeping the wort moving, you greatly improve the heat transfer coefficient and obtain much better cooling. An added benefit of this method is that towards the end of the cooling cycle, I can ramp up the speed and vigor of the mixing to aerate the wort prior to transfer to the primary. The main drawback to this method is that I have to stand there and run the mixer/spoon during the cooling process. Eventually I plan on upgrading to a 50' IC and mixer mounted directly to a lid for the kettle so that I can set it up, turn it on and walk away, but for now my current setup is doing the job nicely.

Cheers,

Greg

Catt22 said:

Unfortunately, the actual recirculation rate will be substantially less than 7.5 GPM through the hoses and chiller. Probably something less than half that rate would be a more realistic estimate. A lot depends on the tubing size and length of the chiller and hoses.

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If everything is 1" you can hit 7.5 with no problem. Knowing this going in you can design the system properly.

arturo7 said:

If everything is 1" you can hit 7.5 with no problem. Knowing this going in you can design the system properly.

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I don't know of anyone using a 1" ID chiller or hose. Coiling 1" copper would be a challenge. Have you actually done this? If so, I am truly impressed!

AnOldUR said:

I didn't see that you mentioned batch size or the size of your IC, but with a 50' x 3/8" diameter IC I can chill six gallons from boiling to 65 degrees in less than a half hour. In the winter when the tap water is colder, it's much less. Personally, I like the idea of chilling the entire batch uniformly.

My opinion is bias because I don't have experience with the other two methods.

Click to expand...

I made a chiller that has two 25' x 3/8" coils (one inside the other) and I hook it up to a pump that's sitting in ice water and the water is being constantly refilled by a hose. I can do my 5 gallons in under 10 minutes.

My chiller is ugly, everyone makes fun of it, until they see it perform.

Catt22 said:

I don't know of anyone using a 1" ID chiller or hose. Coiling 1" copper would be a challenge. Have you actually done this? If so, I am truly impressed!

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Haven't done it yet, but that is the plan. I'm looking at a 15 gallon HDPE drum for the MLT. I won't be size limited by the pre-existing hole of a cooler.

arturo7 said:

Haven't done it yet, but that is the plan.

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Yeah, that's kinda what I figured.

Catt22 said:

Yeah, that's kinda what I figured.

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Absolutely no doubt in my mind that it will work. I've got quite a bit of experience with cooling/chilling systems in industrial applications.



EDIT: I should add that the issue of turbulent flow is critical. The degree to which it can be acheived or improved is the key issue on whether or not it will be more efficient than the standard IC or CFC designs.