I love no sparge brewing...

Well, my first no-sparge brew is in the holding tank (since I'm also no-chilling it). I hardly feel like I had a whole brewday!

I mashed in 11 lb of grains at 3 quarts per lb. 75 minutes later, it looked like conversion was more or less done. Gravity testing on the mash showed 1.033 at the end of the mash, which equates to around 75% mash efficiency per Kai Troester's chart, shown below:



The beer was a cream ale, and I was also trying to use precooked polenta for the first time. mis-estimating the amount of water in the polenta and having a few polentaballs in the mash probably contributed to the low mash efficiency, too.

After all was said and done, I ^h^h^h^hdrained and boiled down to 5.5 gallons at 1.042, which gave me a brewhouse efficiency of around 60% total. Not stellar, but I've learned I need a finer crush.

Thanks for the push in this direction, guys. No-sparging and no-chilling knocked an hour or more of time and plenty of effort off my brewday. I'll be interested to see how the beer turns out.

Ok, so I've done 4 no sparge brews. All 4 are stuck at 1.020. Even did an English Mild last week with an OG of 1.042. I was at work while brewing an even ended up doing a 2 hour mash on this beer.

Anyone having a problem with attenuation?

how do you keep your mash a constant temp? i must have missed something.

chefchris said:

Ok, so I've done 4 no sparge brews. All 4 are stuck at 1.020. Even did an English Mild last week with an OG of 1.042. I was at work while brewing an even ended up doing a 2 hour mash on this beer.

Anyone having a problem with attenuation?

Click to expand...

Did you end up mashing higher than you thought you did (thermometer problem maybe)? I haven't had problems with attenuation on the beers so far, all ended up right on target.

oldschool said:

how do you keep your mash a constant temp? i must have missed something.

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I have a thermometer probe in the mash tun. When the temp drops I slowly heat the kettle for a short period and it comes back up.

The system holds temp better than you would think, even if you don't heat at all it will only drop 5-6*F over 60 minutes.

Saccharomyces said:

Did you end up mashing higher than you thought you did (thermometer problem maybe)? I haven't had problems with attenuation on the beers so far, all ended up right on target.

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This is the only thing that I can think of. The IPA was mashed at 151F and the Mild was at 158F. I did change my thermometer during this time. Lazy me for not calibrating. Just checking to see if anyone else had issues.

Okay, so your conversion eff. was about 75%

Your eff. to the kettle was then 60%? I assume this is what you are calling brewhouse... well it is if you dont have any losses after the boil.

So, you had 80% LAUTER eff. by not doing a sparge.

Now watch this...

If you can get 95% conv. eff. (not hard with proper crush and mash environment) then use your 80% lauter eff. and you will have 76% brewhouse with no sparge!

NICE!! You can do it!

The Pol said:

Okay, so your conversion eff. was about 75%

Your eff. to the kettle was then 60%? I assume this is what you are calling brewhouse... well it is if you dont have any losses after the boil.

So, you had 80% LAUTER eff. by not doing a sparge.

Now watch this...

If you can get 95% conv. eff. (not hard with proper crush and mash environment) then use your 80% lauter eff. and you will have 76% brewhouse with no sparge!

NICE!! You can do it!

Click to expand...

According to my notes you should expect about 67% efficiency to kettle with 11# of grain assuming you get 100% conversion and your grain absorbs .15 gallons per pound. You aren't TOO terribly far off from that...

I dont understand how the grain absorption figures into the eff.?

Using his numbers, he is showing 80% lauter eff... which with 100% conv. would equal 80% to the kettle.

My spreadsheet agrees more or less with Kai's numbers. If you mash at 3 qt/lb, you should have a pre-boil gravity of around 1.046. If he saw 1.033 then it means he only converted 70% of the available starch into sugars which indicates a pH and/or crush and/or stirring problem. I am seeing about 95-100% mash efficiency in my setup.

Absorption by the grain plus dead loss in the MLT determines lauter efficiency without sparge. We are essentially calling it two different things when it's the same thing.

Using jds as an example, 3 quarts/lb went in which means 33 quarts went in for 11#. If .15gal/lb is absorption to grain and 1 quart is dead loss, then you end up getting 33-1-.15*4*11 = 25 quarts out. Everything is at the same gravity so your lauter efficiency is 25 / 33 = 75%. That agrees with the results of my last 4 batches on my system. My brewhouse efficiency is about 67% at this grist weight because mash efficiency is about 95% and I lose 3 quarts in the kettle (hahaw, that will change with the Blingmann though).

I see what you are saying...

Lauter is made up of losses in the MLT... exactly.

Thanks for saying it in a different way!

I'll attach my spreadsheet that I use to the OP. You plug in your system variables, which you can determine just by dumping in water in the kettle/MLT and running off water measuring what's left over that doesn't drain out. Then after a few batches you can work backwards to determine your absorption rate. Once that is set you will nail your gravity within a point every time, assuming you measure all your volumes correctly! Mine's absorption rate is solid at .12 gal per pound except for one batch with Maris Otter as the base grain, with that one I was .15 gal per pound absorbed.

chefchris said:

Anyone having a problem with attenuation?

Click to expand...

Not here. I've done some really nice light and dry "Belgians" with BIAB and no-chill. 1.008, etc.

The Pol said:

If you can get 95% conv. eff. (not hard with proper crush and mash environment) then use your 80% lauter eff. and you will have 76% brewhouse with no sparge!

Click to expand...

That's my typical brewday now, unless I use alot of adjuncts. Not sure why, but with rice, flaked wheat, etc, my conversion goes down. Maybe need a protein rest??

Saccharomyces said:

I'll attach my spreadsheet that I use to the OP.

Click to expand...

Here's a thread I did awhile back based on some conversations I had with kai. basically 80%+ is possible:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximum-brew-bag-effeciency-137804/

The Pol said:

Okay, so your conversion eff. was about 75%

Your eff. to the kettle was then 60%? I assume this is what you are calling brewhouse... well it is if you dont have any losses after the boil.

So, you had 80% LAUTER eff. by not doing a sparge.

Now watch this...

If you can get 95% conv. eff. (not hard with proper crush and mash environment) then use your 80% lauter eff. and you will have 76% brewhouse with no sparge!

NICE!! You can do it!

Click to expand...

Exactly. Denver water is pretty soft. Since this was a pale beer (around 3 SRM), my only mash adjustment was some 5.2 buffer and 2g of canning salt, since the water has lots of sulfates.

I drained the entire kettle to the holding tank and RWS, so my only kettle losses would have been to hops absorption. I'll lose a bit more to trub when I rack into the fermenter.

What I take away from this is that the 75+% percent efficiency I've been getting for regular brewdays may be coming at the cost of oversparging. (I batch).

Since I was using precooked polenta instead of instant grits in the mash, I may have underestimated the water content of the polenta (I used 20%, but that was a guess). That would only move the conversion efficiency around by a couple of points, though.

Basically, I need a finer crush. I've been using precrushed grains, and I know I can tighten thing up a lot by conditioning the malt and crushing finer. A mill is at the top of my Christmas list. I need a new probe for my pH meter, too.

I agree with all you say JDS... I am very interested in these results.

FWIW, just started my boil on a Fat Tire clone. 82% into the kettle with no-sparge BIAB.

Shouldn't have started the apelwien so early though

I have a fridge in my garage that could hold an ale pail. Any reason not to stick in there to speed up the cooling?

That has been discussed on the no-chill thread... it's a bit like trying to stop a moving car by sticking your foot out the door, there is just no reason to do it. If you want to chill down quickly use a chiller, air is not a suitable heat exchanger.

wadner said:

I have a fridge in my garage that could hold an ale pail. Any reason not to stick in there to speed up the cooling?

Click to expand...

This will be VERY hard on the fridge...

That is A LOT of heat.

Got it. No reason to frige it.

Saccharomyces said:

I have a thermometer probe in the mash tun. When the temp drops I slowly heat the kettle for a short period and it comes back up.

The system holds temp better than you would think, even if you don't heat at all it will only drop 5-6*F over 60 minutes.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't it do better if you only recirculated from cooler exit to cooler top and skipped the kettle? I guess if you needed to raise the temp you could re-connect to the kettle.

I'm in the final stages of mine.... and need all the help I can get!

HSM said:

Wouldn't it do better if you only recirculated from cooler exit to cooler top and skipped the kettle? I guess if you needed to raise the temp you could re-connect to the kettle.

I'm in the final stages of mine.... and need all the help I can get!

Click to expand...

Working on mine as well.

In what way do you mean 'wouldn't it do better...'? If you skip the kettle, there is no need to recirculate (unless you have an in-line RIMS as discussed earlier).

When using a RIMS how fast are you recirculating? I've thought of this, but thought it would compact the grain bed. I'm going to be using my pump for the first time. Also does your manifold have drilled holes or slots? Awesome read. I like this idea. I've always batch sparged and thought there has to be a better way.

My manifold has slots. I runoff with the valve wide open and adjust the pump flow to match. It's about 2-3 quarts per minute.

First brew with my verison of this system 2 plus hours into brerw and only 21 mins into mash epic filure of first run pics and thread to follow

Boy dose this march plump lose prime easy

Just want to say THANKS Sacc!

I had finished my pump box and ugly mill setup. Was going to brew on regular Brewguyvered setup, just use the pump for the chill.



NO need for extra HLT now. Even with the short hoses I have (5ft), I was ab le to connect the kettle and mash tun to the pump. Rigged a simple drain hose from scavenged hoses and hooked to hose barb to drain mash tun. Pump work like a champ. Work any bubbles through the intake line and ran the pump for entire mash. Turned off and didn't start again until last 15 min of boil. Prime held and I just turned it on and recirced boiling wort to santize the lines.



No chilled into my ale pales and pitched the US05 the next morning for my take on the Pliny the Bastid. Ten gallons happily bubbling away!


Thanks for sharing your process, helped me work mine out. Thanks to Pol too for starting the serious discussion of no chill. I'm looking to do this at least for all winter brews here in Colorado. Less water and almost no messing with hoses.:fro:

Sweet, glad to hear that my process is working out for other folks.

Saccharomyces, I may have missed it in the posts, but what kind of quick-connects are you using on the silicone tubing and where are they located? I think I see one at the pump outlet, but are there more? How much switching the hoses around with this set-up? Thanks for a great write-up.

tundra05 said:

Saccharomyces, I may have missed it in the posts, but what kind of quick-connects are you using on the silicone tubing and where are they located? I think I see one at the pump outlet, but are there more? How much switching the hoses around with this set-up? Thanks for a great write-up.

Click to expand...

The silicone tubing attaches to the barbs snugly, no need for any QDs other than at the pump.

After running off I disconnect the pump outlet hose from the MLT and connect it to the kettle lid. This allows for recirculation to sanitize the pump and lines with boiling hot wort for a few minutes before chilling or pumping straight into the fermenter when doing no-chill.

tundra05 said:

Saccharomyces, I may have missed it in the posts, but what kind of quick-connects are you using on the silicone tubing and where are they located? I think I see one at the pump outlet, but are there more? How much switching the hoses around with this set-up? Thanks for a great write-up.

Click to expand...

I got to see his set-up last month. Let me tell you, THAT is what I want. I was IMPRESSED with the ease of use and the whole process.

Saccharomyces said:

The silicone tubing attaches to the barbs snugly, no need for any QDs other than at the pump.

After running off I disconnect the pump outlet hose from the MLT and connect it to the kettle lid. This allows for recirculation to sanitize the pump and lines with boiling hot wort for a few minutes before chilling or pumping straight into the fermenter when doing no-chill.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I think your set-up is the definition of efficiency. I want to copy your design somewhat and was just wondering where to insert an IC process. I really don't relish the thought of pumping cooled wort into the fermenter due to contamination issues.....this is the part I'm hung-up on. I guess I could go with a CFC, but I want to use what I've got and I don't like the idea of not being able to see (clean) where the wort has been. Or I guess I could just drain into the fermenter, but if I have to buy a pump, I want to use it!

It looks like a brass QD at the pump head, is this what you recommend, and where would I get those? Thanks

I have mine all tested (with water) and ready to go. Waiting until next week when my father-in-law visits to give it its first brew using the new setup. He's helped me before, but this setup will be new to both of us.

I added a valve, sightglass and thermometer to my keggle. Got a pump, silicone tubing and QDs. Added a PVC manifold to the top of my 70qt coleman extreme. Built a 20' CFC/pump-in-a-bucket ala jkarp. A lot of new stuff.

My recirc flow rate is about 1 gpm. Not great, but faster than the MLT drains into the BK so I'll still have to throttle it back during mash recirculating.
My first brew using this setup will be a 5 gallon batch (I normally do 10 gallon batches unless I'm trying a new recipe) and I'm trying to determine my mash water/BK water ratio for recirc. I need about 4 gallons in the BK to get a good reading from the thermometer. There is approx. 0.33 gal of dead space in the whole setup (1.75 cups in BK, the rest in the CFC/Pump/hoses/MLT).
For 10.25 lbs of grain, I'll need 8.87 gallons water total, so I'm thinking a 50/50 split between MLT and BK. That would be 4.43 gal to the MLT for a water/grain ratio of 1.73 qts/lb.
Lots of new variables to take into account.

For 10 gallons batches using 15 lbs of grain or more, my total water volume required will be greater than the capacity of the keggle and I'll probably have to transfer all mash water to the MLT and mash for a bit without recirc while the additional water is heating in the BK. We'll see how it goes.

I'll take some pics when I brew.

Many thanks to Sacc and jkarp.

tundra05 said:

Thanks. I think your set-up is the definition of efficiency. I want to copy your design somewhat and was just wondering where to insert an IC process. I really don't relish the thought of pumping cooled wort into the fermenter due to contamination issues.....this is the part I'm hung-up on. I guess I could go with a CFC, but I want to use what I've got and I don't like the idea of not being able to see (clean) where the wort has been. Or I guess I could just drain into the fermenter, but if I have to buy a pump, I want to use it!

It looks like a brass QD at the pump head, is this what you recommend, and where would I get those? Thanks

Click to expand...

I have been thinking about copying this design also... but, with a chill step. My thought was to use the pump to whirlpool along with my IC. I'm pretty sure that there are a number of threads on it. From what I gather, it's just circulating the wort around the IC.

I'm not sure that I understand your contamination issues, though. If you start the pump before the end of the boil, wouldn't the boiling wort sanitize the pump and tubes?

Baron ken said:

For 10 gallons batches using 15 lbs of grain or more, my total water volume required will be greater than the capacity of the keggle and I'll probably have to transfer all mash water to the MLT and mash for a bit without recirc while the additional water is heating in the BK. We'll see how it goes.

I'll take some pics when I brew.

Many thanks to Sacc and jkarp.

Click to expand...

I still have my original 7.5gal kettle I used when I first started brewing away from the kitchen. I use it to heat the extra volume of water for my no sparge setup. Then I heat another small volume for washing since the no chill leaves me without heated water waste water.

Even on a first run using 3 new techniques or pieces of equipment, it was very efficient and I'll be using this setup regularlly now, especially in the cooler months.

claude505 said:

I'm not sure that I understand your contamination issues, though. If you start the pump before the end of the boil, wouldn't the boiling wort sanitize the pump and tubes?

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I guess it would, but I was wondering for how long. I understand pumping hot wort through the system, but when you use an IC, the wort is then cooled down. Sometimes this takes me 20 minutes or more. Wouldn't this time frame render the boiling sanitation ineffective? I don't know, I'm a noob!

Baron ken said:

For 10 gallons batches using 15 lbs of grain or more, my total water volume required will be greater than the capacity of the keggle and I'll probably have to transfer all mash water to the MLT and mash for a bit without recirc while the additional water is heating in the BK. We'll see how it goes.

Click to expand...

Are you telling me that a 60 qt. keggle won't hold all the necessary water for a 10 gal batch? I don't have access to beersmith here, but how much water does 15 lbs of grain hold? Now that I think about it, the 5 gal. batch Sac. showed was over 8 gallons. I was thinking that by recirculating the sparge water this way you would need less water overall. I never considered that. now I need an even bigger brew kettle if I plan to do 10 gal. batches with this set-up. Dam., and I just got a lead on a new keg for a keggle!

tundra05 said:

Are you telling me that a 60 qt. keggle won't hold all the necessary water for a 10 gal batch? I don't have access to beersmith here, but how much water does 15 lbs of grain hold?

Click to expand...

I looked up my last 3 double batches and they were 18 to 19 gallons of water total. Good thing I have a 20 gallon pot.

I'm sticking to 6 gallon batches with this setup for now.

wildwest450 said:

I looked up my last 3 double batches and they were 18 to 19 gallons of water total. Good thing I have a 20 gallon pot.

I'm sticking to 6 gallon batches with this setup for now.

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Wow. I guess I'll be doing 5 gallon batches forever. This is not a cheap hobby!

tundra05 said:

I really don't relish the thought of pumping cooled wort into the fermenter due to contamination issues.....this is the part I'm hung-up on. I guess I could go with a CFC, but I want to use what I've got and I don't like the idea of not being able to see (clean) where the wort has been. Or I guess I could just drain into the fermenter, but if I have to buy a pump, I want to use it!

It looks like a brass QD at the pump head, is this what you recommend, and where would I get those? Thanks

Click to expand...

Those are brass QDs from McMaster-Carr. Any QDs should work fine, or you could even just go with barbs on the pump.

I have used my 50' IC with this setup -- just setup the tube to return flow from the pump using a clamp to hold it in place, and recirculate the boiling hot wort for about 5 minutes at the end of the boil to sanitize the pump and lines (while the IC is sanitizing as well). Then turn on the hose to the IC at flameout. The recirculating wort chills really fast this way, it's superior to stirring with a spoon. When the wort is chilled, shut off the valve at the pump outlet, spray the hose down with sanitizer, drop it into your fermenter, and open the valve. That's it.

Plate chillers and ICs are superior to a CFC because they are much more easily cleaned and sanitized; every 2-3 batches you can boil a plate chiller for 30 minutes as an extra sanitizing step, with a CFC you can't do that...