Repitching High Gravity

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highgravitybacon

highgravitybacon

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I have a 1.074 and 1.084 beer. I'm using Wyeast 1388 on the 1.074 and WLP550 on the 1.084. Both are around 30 IBU. About 12-20% simple sugars.

Any issues with repitching this yeast? I'm not talking about the whole pile, but an appropriate amount of slurry.
 
I can't back this up with any sciency stuff but conventional wisdom says to dump yeast from bigger beers. They get stressed out from big, intense fermentations. I'll use yeast from beers up to 1.060 but stop after that.
 
inhousebrew said:
I can't back this up with any sciency stuff but conventional wisdom says to dump yeast from bigger beers. They get stressed out from big, intense fermentations. I'll use yeast from beers up to 1.060 but stop after that.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have read that. But I have also heard of people repitching at high gravity too. Again, anecdotal.

Where I get confused is why it doesnt work. The "yeast get stressed" answer isn't quite specific enough and that's all I've found.

Edit: Im not criticizing your reply, just thinking loud, typing, about the actual changes.
 
highgravitybacon said:
Yes, I have read that. But I have also heard of people repitching at high gravity too. Again, anecdotal.

Where I get confused is why it doesnt work. The "yeast get stressed" answer isn't quite specific enough and that's all I've found.

Edit: Im not criticizing your reply, just thinking loud, typing, about the actual changes.
Click to expand...

I agree completely with your assessment. It is a vague statement. And standard brewing procedures and knowledge seem to change from time to time so it's possible this is just one of those things that keeps getting said. That said, I stick to it. Yeast is the most important thing I put in my beer so why risk it.
 
It is my understanding that the higher alcohol environment promotes mutations which are generally not what we want with brewing. A common mutation is less flocculation. If you want to pitch from a higher gravity beer then I recommend washing and using a starter so you can be sure the yeast can floc well.
 
Use it. I generally follow the philosophy of not re-using yeast from anything above 1.070 (I don't have too many that are below 1.060). But I have on occasion used yeast from beers above that with no noticeable issues. If I use a yeast from a high gravity beer, I will only use it once; it doesn't get re-used again.

This practice meets my brewing needs, so I have no reason to continually re-use yeast from higher gravity beers.
 
kaconga said:
It is my understanding that the higher alcohol environment promotes mutations which are generally not what we want with brewing. A common mutation is less flocculation. If you want to pitch from a higher gravity beer then I recommend washing and using a starter so you can be sure the yeast can floc well.
Click to expand...

Well, 1388 is a horrible flocculator already. I like 1007 and thought it was a slow flocculator. Not even in the same ballpark. Hard to believe Duvel obtains such stunning clarity with this yeast.
 
Calder said:
Use it. I generally follow the philosophy of not re-using yeast from anything above 1.070 (I don't have too many that are below 1.060). But I have on occasion used yeast from beers above that with no noticeable issues. If I use a yeast from a high gravity beer, I will only use it once; it doesn't get re-used again.

This practice meets my brewing needs, so I have no reason to continually re-use yeast from higher gravity beers.
Click to expand...

Do you reuse the high gravity yeast for another high gravity beer, or a lower/low SG beer?
 
highgravitybacon said:
Do you reuse the high gravity yeast for another high gravity beer, or a lower/low SG beer?
Click to expand...

Again. I've only used yeast over 1.080 in a single beer. never re-used it again.

No I don't pay attention to what I pitch it into. I never follow rules as to keep stepping it up. I am pretty sure that on the occasions where I have used yeast from high gravity beers, it was into a lower gravity beer, but very few of my beers are lower than 1.060.

But ...... if I remember correctly, I recently did a Berliner Weisse (1.036) that had yeast from a 'higher' gravity beer with no issues. I wanted to pitch big because of the acidic environment in that beer, and the yeast from the cake of a high gravity beer (somewhere between 1.070 and 1.080) was available.
 
kaconga said:
It is my understanding that the higher alcohol environment promotes mutations which are generally not what we want with brewing. A common mutation is less flocculation. If you want to pitch from a higher gravity beer then I recommend washing and using a starter so you can be sure the yeast can floc well.
Click to expand...
True, stress does promote sporification and petite mutants, but it will take quite some time before you really see a difference.

I was reading "Brew Like a Monk" and learned that some brewers repitch up to 10 times. Rochefort uses their yeast four times for the 6, then four times for the 8 and then uses it in the 10. So it's been through four 8%ABV batches and four 9% abv batches before it is used for the highest gravity beer that they make.

Loss of the ability to flocculate is a common mutation, but I'm not sure I follow how "yeast washing" would leave you with the cells that flocculate well. If you are referring to the ricing procedure that is promoted by a sticky on this forum then that actually encourages selection of cells that do not floculate well.
 
WoodlandBrew said:
True, stress does promote sporification and petite mutants, but it will take quite some time before you really see a difference.

I was reading "Brew Like a Monk" and learned that some brewers repitch up to 10 times. Rochefort uses their yeast four times for the 6, then four times for the 8 and then uses it in the 10. So it's been through four 8%ABV batches and four 9% abv batches before it is used for the highest gravity beer that they make.

Loss of the ability to flocculate is a common mutation, but I'm not sure I follow how "yeast washing" would leave you with the cells that flocculate well. If you are referring to the ricing procedure that is promoted by a sticky on this forum then that actually encourages selection of cells that do not floculate well.
Click to expand...

True on the selection of less flocculant cells via washing. Guess in my mind if the less flocculant ones drop from my starters in a proper amount of time then I consider it to be good to go for my beer. You could just make a starter from slurry to make sure your yeast are good to go. I just like to remove as many unnecessary solids as I can when I am reusing yeast.
 
WoodlandBrew said:
True, stress does promote sporification and petite mutants, but it will take quite some time before you really see a difference.

I was reading "Brew Like a Monk" and learned that some brewers repitch up to 10 times. Rochefort uses their yeast four times for the 6, then four times for the 8 and then uses it in the 10. So it's been through four 8%ABV batches and four 9% abv batches before it is used for the highest gravity beer that they make.

Loss of the ability to flocculate is a common mutation, but I'm not sure I follow how "yeast washing" would leave you with the cells that flocculate well. If you are referring to the ricing procedure that is promoted by a sticky on this forum then that actually encourages selection of cells that do not floculate well.
Click to expand...

Found an older Brew Strong podcast about yeast with some people from White Labs, Jamil, et. al, talking about, as you might imagine, yeast.

Anyway, the show is fairly pointless with little usable information and I was thinking that I had wasted about 57 minutes of my life listening to a bunch of stupid ****, when in the last 3 minutes, Jamil talked about Stone's repitching.

He said Mitch Steele told him that Stone tried repitching from low gravity to high gravity, like is the common mantra. However, they found that the viability was not good. Instead, they found they got the best viability from their stock IPA -- which comes in at about 7% ABV, high high IBUs, etc. And it is from the IPA tank they pull slurry and use it for all other beers in the plant.

The thought is that the yeast is uniquely adapted to the harsh (relative) conditions of the high IBU, higher gravity beer, and adapted to the geometery of the fermeter, the pressure, etc, and it adapts to the unique environment and makes good beer.

In other words, the Stone IPA is like Navy Seal / Airforce PJ school all rolled into one and the all the limp wristed yeast that can't hack it don't survive so you end up with this ultra badass ninja sniper parajumper yeast that can ferment anything.

At least that's what I got out of it.
 
highgravitybacon said:
Found an older Brew Strong podcast about yeast with some people from White Labs, Jamil, et. al, talking about, as you might imagine, yeast.

Anyway, the show is fairly pointless with little usable information and I was thinking that I had wasted about 57 minutes of my life listening to a bunch of stupid ****, when in the last 3 minutes, Jamil talked about Stone's repitching.

He said Mitch Steele told him that Stone tried repitching from low gravity to high gravity, like is the common mantra. However, they found that the viability was not good. Instead, they found they got the best viability from their stock IPA -- which comes in at about 7% ABV, high high IBUs, etc. And it is from the IPA tank they pull slurry and use it for all other beers in the plant.

The thought is that the yeast is uniquely adapted to the harsh (relative) conditions of the high IBU, higher gravity beer, and adapted to the geometery of the fermeter, the pressure, etc, and it adapts to the unique environment and makes good beer.

In other words, the Stone IPA is like Navy Seal / Airforce PJ school all rolled into one and the all the limp wristed yeast that can't hack it don't survive so you end up with this ultra badass ninja sniper parajumper yeast that can ferment anything.

At least that's what I got out of it.
Click to expand...

I'm going to be trying something like this in the next couple of months. I stumbled on this thread reading up on what people thought of repitching "stressed out yeast" and if anyone had tried to experiment with it. I am brewing a 1.106 OG beer with ~100 IBUs and am pitching an appropriately large yeast starter of Wyeast 1762 (Abbey II). Then after fermentation is over I intend to wash the yeast and repitch into some small batch (1-2 gallon) experimental beers to see what happens. I'll probably post a separate thread with the whole plan laid out once I get closer to the yeast washing.

Some day I'd like to invest in a good quality microscope and some used lab/test equipment and really try to isolate some interesting yeasts but in the meantime I figured I could try experimenting with small batches and see what works and what doesn't.
 

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