Pre-making starter wort

I figured I'd see if anybody else has considered this as a time and money saving idea. I figure I should be able to mash about 7.75 Lbs of 2-row malt and do a 60 minute boil to get 5 gallons of 1.040 neutral wort.

If I canned this in 1 liter mason jars, I should have enough material for 9 2-liter starters for a cost of around $10, compared to usually getting about 7 of them out of a 3lb bag of DME for the same price, and it'll be ready to go when needed, just open the jar and toss it into my flask with yeast.

Anybody tried this? I'm trying to think it through to see if there's any flaws I'm missing, but it seems like it'd work fine and have me setup for several months of starters, which I tend to start on worknights the week of a brew weekend.

-D

I was thinking about this on the drive home yesterday, actually.

The only flaw I saw with this is, essentially, the risk of infection.

We have wort chillers to bring the wort down as fast as possible and lessen the chance of infection. WE then pitch yeast ASAP so that the yeast takes hold before the baddies do. I wonder if the same rules wouldn't apply here.

Anyway, I'm curious to see what other people think here, and if it seems viable, what recipe works?

just thinking out loud here.......

What about making the neutral wort, cooling ASAP as cold as possible, put in well sanitized container, add chilled yeast and immediately put in the fridge, bottom shelf.

how long would it keep? Keeping it cold would deter the yeast from doing its thing, then warm when needed and create a starter.

I've had dumber ideas, believe it or not......

fretman124 said:

What about making the neutral wort, cooling ASAP as cold as possible, put in well sanitized container, add chilled yeast and immediately put in the fridge, bottom shelf.

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Well, I suppose that MIGHT work, however it sort of defeats the idea (for me) of pre-making the starter wort. In general, I'd like to have wort ready to go when I get my yeast a few days before brewing. That way I can step it up, split it a few times and then bank it. I'd also like to be able to pull out a jar, bring it to room temp and then pitch the yeast... whichever variety it may be.

The problem with pitching the yeast first is that you use a LOT of space for very little results. Imagine how much space you'd use storing many liters of pitched starter wort when a single cooler can hold 50 vials of yeast you can pitch and step up at will.

I'd also be concerned with one other thing... Even in the fridge, yeast aren't inactive. Yeah, you can greatly slow their activity, but they still produce CO2 that can build up and expode in the fridge if not vented properly - keeping it anything but airtight risks infection and venting them daily eliminates all benefit of making the wort beforehand.

fretman124 said:

how long would it keep?

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Brew You Own said in an article this month that this kind of cooled starter lasts 2 weeks. I think that's wrong, since I've had healthy yeast last longer than that with no infection, but then again, it could be right.

In which case, the idea of pre-pitching goes out the window too, no homebrewer is going to need a 5 gallon starter and nobody brews enough in a month to use all those starters.

If you are using canning jars (ie mason jars)

Boil the jars, lids, and rings for 15-20 min seperately (and the business end of some tongs)

When the boil is over (wort) fill the jars with the hot wort, cover, and let them cool. When they are room temp, toss them in the fridge.

I was listening to a Jamil show and he makes five gallons of starter wort then puts them jars and essentially sterilizes it. If you could do that it would last indefinitely.

I keep wort left over from what I don't put in my fermenter. Basically, I let the trub in my kettle settle out more after I put into my fermenter all I need for fermentation.
The good wort ( clearest ) goes into 500 ML mason Jars and is pressure cooked for 15 minutes at 15 PSI after letting all the air escape from the pressure cooker.
After letting it cool I put them in my basement until needed. Mine has to go in the dark also due to it being hopped. It is then good almsot indenfinatly. I label each jar with the date, so I can use the oldest first.

When doing AG you can also do third or fourth runnings to use as starter wort, but I find this would be over kill.

You have to be careful in doing up any prepared food item as botulisum is a big fear.

You gotta do this the right way, using a pressure cooker. You'll get into some trouble if you don't. This link will tell you all you need to know: http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/how/can_home.html I think this is a great idea, but I'd personally make a little less because it'd take me a while to go through 9 jars. This looks especially useful for stepping up a huge starter, because you get way better results than just making one in a single step.

I'm really realizing that most of what Jamil Z says is true....it's hard to overpitch, and having copious amounts of clean yeast at the proper fermentation temps is what makes award winning beer. I just made a huge starter that tore thru O'Flannagain's Standard Stout in like 2 days. Can't wait to see what it tastes like!

You could also freeze your wort in plastic containers. The only thing is that you will need to boil them before using them in your starter.

why dink with boiling mason jars??

toss them in a bucket of star-san. 30 seconds later...sanitized!

some guys use ziploc bags and freeze the wort. obviously you'd have to cool it down a bit first, and sanitize the bags first.

malkore said:

why dink with boiling mason jars??

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If you are able to use a pressure canning system you can sterilize the jar and the starter wort and storage time is greatly increased.

Freezing only slows down bacterial growth. When making a starter you have to be using sterile, not sanitized equipment or your starter will create infected beer. That's why you boil your wort and cool it.

I have to agree that you need to sterilize the wort if you are using mason jars by using a pressure cooker. If you freeze wort after the boil in something you HAVE TO reboil before pitching any yeast. I have done both and prefer the sterilized/vacuum sealed masons. Botulism is a really big concern that isn't 100% taken care of in the freezing and storing of wort. I do take my third runnings after batch sparging for my brew and boil it down to 1.050 SG. It has no hops but that doesn't matter since it is going into the masons in the pressure cooker. I like that I don't have to worry for it to thaw, boil, and then pitch. I have a hard time getting the lids off my masons (bastards are vacuumed tight:rockin: ), but they are pitch-able right out of the fridge. I about ripped a fingernail off last time, well it felt like it anyway. Jamil does know his stuff, I would have never heard of him if it hadn't been for this forum, so a big shout of thanks there!!!!!

ScubaSteve said:

Freezing only slows down bacterial growth. When making a starter you have to be using sterile, not sanitized equipment or your starter will create infected beer. That's why you boil your wort and cool it.

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That's why I said you have to boil your frozen wort before making a starter.

D*Bo said:

If you are using canning jars (ie mason jars)

Boil the jars, lids, and rings for 15-20 min seperately (and the business end of some tongs)

When the boil is over (wort) fill the jars with the hot wort, cover, and let them cool. When they are room temp, toss them in the fridge.

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That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking of doing. Have you tried it and observed the wort to be stable and usable if handled correctly?

-D

Thanks for the feedback guys. Sounds like my idea is a path well travelled and will work just fine. I'd planned to sterilize the jars and wort concurrently, then can, which seems to be the best approach.

Thanks. =)

-D

You guys are working too hard. Rather than going through all that, just make an extra gallon or so of wort when you brew your next batch of beer. Then stick that extra gallon into an ice cream bucket and throw it in the freezer. When you make your starter, thaw the wort in the microwave, pour some of it in the pan for boiling, and refreeze the rest. Fcku the pressure cooker and the canning jars.

Can you autoclave wort? i.e., make 5 gallons, boil, cool, throw into mason jars, and autoclave with the lids on (vented of course)?

Then after the autoclave is over, screw the lids on tight.

PseudoChef said:

Can you autoclave wort? i.e., make 5 gallons, boil, cool, throw into mason jars, and autoclave with the lids on (vented of course)?

Then after the autoclave is over, screw the lids on tight.

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autoclave ala pressure cooker.

Just bought a little 4 qt one tonight to sterilize vials for storing yeast.

Why not boil the jars in hot water, then just put the wort into the jars, put the jars in a pot of boiling water again for 15 minutes. Wouldn't that sterilize the jars inner contents for a second time allowing almost 0 chance of an infection? You wouldn't have to worry about killing yeast by boiling. Wait for it to cool and throw in the fridge.

Sounds like a plan to me, think I'm gonna do it.

FlyGuy said:

That's why I said you have to boil your frozen wort before making a starter.

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Sorry. I guess what I was trying to say is that it's nice to have your wort ready to go when you want to make a starter, and not have to worry about boiling and cooling again. There's more than one way to skin a cat, I guess....it just depends on whether you like doing the bulk of the work up front (canning) or right before you make your starter (thawing, boiling, then cooling/pitching).

ScubaSteve said:

Sorry. I guess what I was trying to say is that it's nice to have your wort ready to go when you want to make a starter, and not have to worry about boiling and cooling again. There's more than one way to skin a cat, I guess....it just depends on whether you like doing the bulk of the work up front (canning) or right before you make your starter (thawing, boiling, then cooling/pitching).

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Yeah, I agree with you -- it would be nice to have some starter wort ready to go. Thawing then boiling your frozen wort can be a bit of a PITA.

I was thinking about this a bit, and realized that one could really trim down this process if you froze your runnings that came directly from the mash tun (i.e., skip the first boil). If you are going to boil it later anyways, I see no reason why you should do it twice. It is only necessary for two purposes for starter wort: to sterilize the wort and to get a decent hot break. I think you could do both of these after freezing to save some time.

FlyGuy said:

Yeah, I agree with you -- it would be nice to have some starter wort ready to go. Thawing then boiling your frozen wort can be a bit of a PITA.

I was thinking about this a bit, and realized that one could really trim down this process if you froze your runnings that came directly from the mash tun (i.e., skip the first boil). If you are going to boil it later anyways, I see no reason why you should do it twice. It is only necessary for two purposes for starter wort: to sterilize the wort and to get a decent hot break. I think you could do both of these after freezing to save some time.

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That's what I said, although maybe I was a bit unclear.............

Bernie Brewer said:

That's what I said, although maybe I was a bit unclear.............

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Yeah, I saw that. I certainly agree with you (I even have the pressure cooker and gear I bought with the intention of canning wort, but it was just too much hassle).

I just wanted to make the point that you don't need to boil twice when you freeze, so the freeze/thaw/boil method wouldn't need to be any more work than canning (perhaps even much less).

Ó Flannagáin said:

Why not boil the jars in hot water, then just put the wort into the jars, put the jars in a pot of boiling water again for 15 minutes. Wouldn't that sterilize the jars inner contents for a second time allowing almost 0 chance of an infection? You wouldn't have to worry about killing yeast by boiling. Wait for it to cool and throw in the fridge.

Sounds like a plan to me, think I'm gonna do it.

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You need the higher tempertures the pressure cooker provides to kill any possible botulism or other bugs that can survive 212f tempertures.

Your choice.

As for the debate on freezing wort. Hell yeah if I had the room in my freezer I'd do that.

boo boo said:

As for the debate on freezing wort. Hell yeah if I had the room in my freezer I'd do that.

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Boo boo -- clearly you need two freezers. One for hunting, and one for beermaking and everything else. This way, you will have room for frozen wort AND you will be forced to make more time for hunting since the freezer won't be full!

This has been discussed several times in the past.

There's no difference in this than there is in canning veggies.

Mason jars are the way to go.

homebrewer_99 said:

This has been discussed several times in the past.

There's no difference in this than there is in canning veggies.

Mason jars are the way to go.

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yeah, i have been doing the canning route too, but Bernie Brewer has a valid alterative point of view. I think i'll give it a try and see how it comes out....

OldFarmer said:

yeah, i have been doing the canning route too, but Bernie Brewer has a valid alterative point of view. I think i'll give it a try and see how it comes out....

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Not really, is an Ice cream machine sterile? Wouldn't and unsealed container absorb nasties in the freezer just like ice cubes do?

Canning may be a PITA (to some), but in the end it's the most effective.

It's just as easy to make a batch and can it all.

homebrewer_99 said:

Not really, is an Ice cream machine sterile? Wouldn't and unsealed container absorb nasties in the freezer just like ice cubes do?

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Sure, that's entirely possible, but since it's pre-boil, I don't worry about it. Whatever works for you.............

I myself dont see why freezing then boiling it would be any faster than dumping some DME & water in a pan and boiling it. If you put any value on your time it would be a wash. I can see myself canning a bunch some cold winter day and it would rock to be able to walk into the pantry and just grab one and pitch.

SuperiorBrew said:

I myself dont see why freezing then boiling it would be any faster than dumping some DME & water in a pan and boiling it. If you put any value on your time it would be a wash. I can see myself canning a bunch some cold winter day and it would rock to be able to walk into the pantry and just grab one and pitch.

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That's why I like it too.

FlyGuy said:

Yeah, I agree with you -- it would be nice to have some starter wort ready to go. Thawing then boiling your frozen wort can be a bit of a PITA.

I was thinking about this a bit, and realized that one could really trim down this process if you froze your runnings that came directly from the mash tun (i.e., skip the first boil). If you are going to boil it later anyways, I see no reason why you should do it twice. It is only necessary for two purposes for starter wort: to sterilize the wort and to get a decent hot break. I think you could do both of these after freezing to save some time.

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The advantage to boiling beforehand from my perspective is the idea of having ready to go sterile wort at the right SG, which is easier to do in bulk rather than having to boil each bit of frozen wort as needed.

Different strokes. =)

-D

SuperiorBrew said:

I myself dont see why freezing then boiling it would be any faster than dumping some DME & water in a pan and boiling it. If you put any value on your time it would be a wash. I can see myself canning a bunch some cold winter day and it would rock to be able to walk into the pantry and just grab one and pitch.

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Well, I was originally approaching it from a cost perspective as well. Wort from grain (especially cheap 2-row) is much less expensive than DME.

-D

FlyGuy said:

Boo boo -- clearly you need two freezers. One for hunting, and one for beermaking and everything else. This way, you will have room for frozen wort AND you will be forced to make more time for hunting since the freezer won't be full!

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The pity is that I DO have two freezers. One just aquired. It is now half full of hops, yeast and berrys (for wine and jam). The other is also half full awaiting the arrival of a quarter of moose.

I still prefer the convinience of opening a sterile jar of ready wort to make my starter with. As for how I value my time... my brewing time isn't measured in dollars but in relaxing value. It's a labour of love. IMO if you value your time in money that much than it should be cheaper to just buy your brew.

Llarian said:

Well, I was originally approaching it from a cost perspective as well. Wort from grain (especially cheap 2-row) is much less expensive than DME.

-D

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That is why I make my starter wort from what I don't use in my fermenter. DME here is VERY expensive at about $9 for 500 grams.

Llarian said:

The advantage to boiling beforehand from my perspective is the idea of having ready to go sterile wort at the right SG, which is easier to do in bulk rather than having to boil each bit of frozen wort as needed.

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boo boo said:

I still prefer the convinience of opening a sterile jar of ready wort to make my starter with. As for how I value my time... my brewing time isn't measured in dollars but in relaxing value. It's a labour of love. IMO if you value your time in money that much than it should be cheaper to just buy your brew.

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Curse you both and all your 'LOGICAL' talk here. You are going to cost me a new, bigger pressure cooker!

Out of curiosity I've been reading up about botulism. I'm wondering if when people prepare starter wort in mason jars do they fill them to the top for some reason or is it OK to just half fill the mason jar?

The reason I ask is that from what I've read botulism needs an oxygen free environment to grow and produce toxin. So if the mason jar is only half full of wort, and half full of air, there shouldn't be any botulism growth. No growth means no toxin production which means no danger.

I'm not saying don't boil your jars and the wort to destroy other nasties. I also understand that it's possible/probable for Botulism spores to be present in the starter. But as long as there's air in the jar I don't think there'll be any botulism growth, so is a pressure cooker really needed?

Well, today I am both pressure canning and freezing post-boiled/cleared wort. LOL, guess it is a "run out of jars" thing. I just grabbed a couple of 2 liter bottles and cleaned and sanitized them to accept the chilled wort, then right into the freezer. The masons will go directly to the cupboard. It really is to each his own, but everyone is right in their aspects of using what they use. Maybe the sterile as starters and the 2 liters as speise/gyle in my case

I had to make a 4L starter for a 10G batch I am brewing on Sunday so this thread insiperd me to can some.
I used 5.25 lbs of DME, 1.25teaspons of yeast nutrient & 7 1/4 gallons of water.
I ended up with 24 canned quarts and a 4L starter @ 1.035 that is spinning away as we speak. That comes out to $0.65 a quart.
Next time I want to make a starter it should be just a couple minutes to get it in the flask and on the stir plate. Plus no mess!


Supplies all ready to go.


Boiling the starter and pressure cooking the quarts.


All canned, just need to finish cooling and I can wash the outsides off and put them away.


4L starter going for Sunday.