Small Batch Questions

I have been looking at brewing beer lately but I think I want to start with Cider. Is there an easy guide (with recipe) for a small batch of cider? I guess I want to make sure I will even like this stuff before I purchase too much gear.

Thanks

you can use gallon jugs that the juice comes in as the primary fermentor and just add yeast. doesnt get much easier than that. As far as what yeast to use - what commercial ciders do you like?

Regardless of the style, you want to start with the best juice you can get your hands on, preferably unpasteurized or UV pasteurized - not heat pasteurized or with any preservatives. Since its apple season, you might want to check out some fruit stands and orchards this weekend to check out your options

CvilleKevin said:

you can use gallon jugs that the juice comes in as the primary fermentor and just add yeast. doesnt get much easier than that. As far as what yeast to use - what commercial ciders do you like?

Regardless of the style, you want to start with the best juice you can get your hands on, preferably unpasteurized or UV pasteurized - not heat pasteurized or with any preservatives. Since its apple season, you might want to check out some fruit stands and orchards this weekend to check out your options

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The farmers market is tomorrow but I have to work early! Doh. I might have to go in late and just go get some fresh Apple Juice. We have a couple orchards here that participate there. Any certain stuff I should look for? I saw you said unpasteurized or UV pasteurized.

To me, honestly, cider is cider as long as its sweet. I've never had any "hard cider" so this would be my first attempt. I like things very very sweet so the sweeter the better. We have a store here with basic homebrew supplies: http://www.shriverspharmacy.com/ind...75_128&zenid=2c530075b093cdd8cb026b94d4cd2090

Suggestions?

I guess I need to read some more about cider. Do I just mix it (at room temp) or do I have to boil it first (like beer)? Also what is a suggested fermentation temp? My house is about 70-75 typical (including basement).

Thx

Procuring cider juice is an acceptable excuse for getting to work late. Just make sure to share some of the end product with your boss.

You are fortunate to have a choice of juice in one place. Taste em all and see what you like. When you are evaluating a juice mix for fermenting, you want to pay attention to at least four dimensions. First the smell – if it doesn’t smell good before the ferment, its not likely to get better. Then the first hit of the taste, which should be appley and sweet. The initial sugar taste should fade out fairly quickly and not be syrupy. The midrange is harder to describe, but want a nice flavor when its sitting in your mouth – preferably multiple flavors.- something that remind you of biting into an apple in an orchard (as opposed to drinking a juice box when you were a kid). Then you have the finish, where a tart note is nice as long as not too tart.

It doesn’t hurt to let them know that you are looking to make hard cider. Most apple growers also make hard cider and have their favorite juice combos for that so if you are lucky and treat them right, they might bring you some of the Good Stuff next week..

Here is the quickest, cheapest way to make a small batch:

Get a gallon of whatever you like the best, or two if you cant decide. Preferably unpasteurized or UV pasteurized - not heat pasteurized or with any preservatives. Don’t heat the juice or add anything but yeast. Keep the jugs cool and don’t open them until you are ready to add the yeast. If you refrigerate them, let them come up to room temp for about an hour before pitching the yeast. Since you like a sweet cider, use ale yeast – preferably S04 or Nottingham. One packet is enough for 5 gal, but it wont hurt to over pitch the yeast. Pour off about 4oz of juice, and pitch the yeast, a little bit at a time. Let it sit on top of the cider for about 10 min, until it sinks, then add some more. Do this three times, then put the original jug top back on, give it a good shake and replace the jug top with a fermentation lock and 6 ½ stopper, which you can pick up when you get the yeast.

You should see fermentation start within 24 hours, usually a lot earlier. Let it set in the coolest part of your house. When the ferment starts to slow down (between 5 and 9 days, depending on temp), start checking for taste. You can pour a little bit out but its better to use a wine thief so you don’t disturb the sediment. When you are happy with the taste, rack it into a clean gallon jug and stick it in the fridge for a couple of days to chill the yeast out. Rack it one more time into bottles or a pitcher and its good to drink. This way, you are arresting the secondary fermentation which is where the more complex sugars break down and you're not adding anything that might alter the flavor of the apples and yeast, which will still be very fresh. Its like a Beaujolais cider. You can wait a few more weeks to let it clear out if you want, but IMHO there is no need to (and often good reasons NOT to will come along).

Once you have this method down, there are a lot of ways to branch out, and as it gets later in the Fall, you should be able to get better quality juice at your farmers market

cheers

CvilleKevin said:

Procuring cider juice is an acceptable excuse for getting to work late. Just make sure to share some of the end product with your boss.

You are fortunate to have a choice of juice in one place. Taste em all and see what you like. When you are evaluating a juice mix for fermenting, you want to pay attention to at least four dimensions. First the smell – if it doesn’t smell good before the ferment, its not likely to get better. Then the first hit of the taste, which should be appley and sweet. The initial sugar taste should fade out fairly quickly and not be syrupy. The midrange is harder to describe, but want a nice flavor when its sitting in your mouth – preferably multiple flavors.- something that remind you of biting into an apple in an orchard (as opposed to drinking a juice box when you were a kid). Then you have the finish, where a tart note is nice as long as not too tart.

It doesn’t hurt to let them know that you are looking to make hard cider. Most apple growers also make hard cider and have their favorite juice combos for that so if you are lucky and treat them right, they might bring you some of the Good Stuff next week..

Here is the quickest, cheapest way to make a small batch:

Get a gallon of whatever you like the best, or two if you cant decide. Preferably unpasteurized or UV pasteurized - not heat pasteurized or with any preservatives. Don’t heat the juice or add anything but yeast. Keep the jugs cool and don’t open them until you are ready to add the yeast. If you refrigerate them, let them come up to room temp for about an hour before pitching the yeast. Since you like a sweet cider, use ale yeast – preferably S04 or Nottingham. One packet is enough for 5 gal, but it wont hurt to over pitch the yeast. Pour off about 4oz of juice, and pitch the yeast, a little bit at a time. Let it sit on top of the cider for about 10 min, until it sinks, then add some more. Do this three times, then put the original jug top back on, give it a good shake and replace the jug top with a fermentation lock and 6 ½ stopper, which you can pick up when you get the yeast.

You should see fermentation start within 24 hours, usually a lot earlier. Let it set in the coolest part of your house. When the ferment starts to slow down (between 5 and 9 days, depending on temp), start checking for taste. You can pour a little bit out but its better to use a wine thief so you don’t disturb the sediment. When you are happy with the taste, rack it into a clean gallon jug and stick it in the fridge for a couple of days to chill the yeast out. Rack it one more time into bottles or a pitcher and its good to drink. This way, you are arresting the secondary fermentation which is where the more complex sugars break down and you're not adding anything that might alter the flavor of the apples and yeast, which will still be very fresh. Its like a Beaujolais cider. You can wait a few more weeks to let it clear out if you want, but IMHO there is no need to (and often good reasons NOT to will come along).

Once you have this method down, there are a lot of ways to branch out, and as it gets later in the Fall, you should be able to get better quality juice at your farmers market

cheers

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Thank you for the very detailed reply!

I will need to get a few things from the store I listed:

SAFALE S-04 DRY ALE YEAST
Racking Cane + Tubing
Drilled Stopper
Fermentation Lock
Sanitizer
Possibly a thief? Not sure if they carry them or not! Sanitized straw? haha.

I believe that's about all I will need aside from the juice and an empty (sanitized) one gallon jug for a secondary.

Let me know if I missed anything!

Thank you btw.

That should do it.

You can use your racking cane with your thumb over the tube if your LHBS doesnt have a thief. But a thief is easier.

After a few batches you might want to get an auto siphon, hydrometer and a few swing top bottles, just to make things easier, but the list you have is all you need

CvilleKevin said:

That should do it.

You can use your racking cane with your thumb over the tube if your LHBS doesnt have a thief. But a thief is easier.

After a few batches you might want to get an auto siphon, hydrometer and a few swing top bottles, just to make things easier, but the list you have is all you need

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Just to make sure i'm not crazy we are referring to apple juice, correct? Or do you start out with a cider and make it a hard cider?

Thanks

Fresh pressed apple juice - which a lot of people refer to as sweet cider. When

I went to the farmers market and bought a ($5) gallon of Apple Cider. It was fresh pressed on Tuesday and it tasted pretty good. (Had to taste it after I bought it). It states no preservatives etc.

I then went over to the pharmacy and bought Nottingham yeast (11g); they didn't have the S-04 but they had the S-05 type.

I bought an autosiphon (3/8") and 5' of tubing. A stopper that should fit in the gallon jug, Fermentation lock (the round type), and a little 8oz bag of one step sanitizer. I also bought a half-assed looking thermometer that looks like this: http://www.ldcarlson.com/public catalog/alla instruments/Floating Thermometer.jpg but mine has a red "handle" on top and the beads in the bottom are bigger (im guessing its no as accurate as the one they had for $2-3 more which had smaller beads?

I believe that's all I purchased. Man oh man I wanted to purchase all the better boys and hydrometer etc but I told myself to wait! LOL I eventually want to experiment with beers, wine, and even cider (which im trying first).

Thank you for your help. I'll make a new thread when I go to brew later.

Alright I took a few minutes to sanitize the three-piece airlock, the cap to the jug, and the rubber grommit thing with a hole drilled through it.

I took about 30 minutes and split the yeast up in 1/3 increments and let it sit for 10 minutes each time. My wife, who is kind of bitter about my new hobbies at times, she came home in time so I let her shake it up and put the plug and the airlock. She thought that was pretty neat I'm hoping I can get her support so if this turns out she will push me to go make wine or even beer.

I have the jug sitting in a close that is semi cool. I should go put it in the basement where I know it's at least 72-73 and not 75. Is cider as picky as beer is when it's fermenting?

Robert

Good luck with the cider. I might give this one a try too. Its easy enough!!

Buzzy said:

Good luck with the cider. I might give this one a try too. Its easy enough!!

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It's in a cool closet sitting there doing nothing yet.. It hasn't been 24 hours though. Waiting to see some airlock activity hehe. I've never brewed anything before.

You should def. try this - the prep was cake.

Robert

Are you seeing some airlock activity by now? Once it starts to get going, you might want to move it out of the closet - especially if your wife keeps any clothes or stuff that could pick up a smell in there. The ferment can get a little stinky sometimes. Also, now and then a ferment will really take off and foam bubbles can come up through the airlock, so you want to keep an eye on it for the first couple of days.

CvilleKevin said:

Are you seeing some airlock activity by now? Once it starts to get going, you might want to move it out of the closet - especially if your wife keeps any clothes or stuff that could pick up a smell in there. The ferment can get a little stinky sometimes. Also, now and then a ferment will really take off and foam bubbles can come up through the airlock, so you want to keep an eye on it for the first couple of days.

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I had bubbles at about 15 hours and I was getting a bubble every 10 seconds or so. Its at about 28 hours and im getting one every 4-6 seconds. If you look closely, you can see a bunch of small bubbles flowing to the top with a tiny bit of air being let out every few seconds.

I threw the yeast packet away so im not sure if my yeast was in that bad batch I saw a thread about. Anythings possible.... BTW the wife is already anxious as hell to try this! Shes actually getting pumped about it and keeps telling me that it better be done soon!!

I took it out of the closet this morning to the side porch (which is enclosed with screens). It seems cooler out there. Question is: Should I keep it out there all night? I would imagine it could only get to a more reasonable temp for the fermentation but it will cause a fluctuation. The low tonight is 63F here in Southeastern Ohio.

The recommended range for Nottingham is 57-70 degrees, and you can usually go a little beyond that, so 63 degrees is no problem. Daily temp fluctuations are fine - just dont let the temp change too fast or you can shock it

The container is still out on the side porch bubbling away. I'm getting one little burp every 3-5 seconds (typically).

Besides that it smells....tasty.

Not too much else! Besides it seems its fermenting quite slow. I'm hoping I didn't have that bad batch of Nottingham yeast that I read about on here.

Thats about right for a gallon batch. I'm pretty sure that the problem with bad Notty batch was that it had got overheated in a warehouse somewhere and people were having problems with ferments not starting. But that doesnt seem to be a problem with your batch. Notty has always been 100 percent reliable for me.

You might want to check for taste tomorrow. It will probably still be too sweet, but with the temps being a little on the warm side, it wont hurt to check. I crashed almost all of my DME batches last night after only 6 days and I wish I had checked them a day earlier - they had got down to 1.004, and that was after I bumped the SG up to 1.065 with DME - so with no sugar, you may have something that tastes pretty good after just 3-4 days. It will be a little yeasty when you taste it, so try to ignore that and just focus on the sugar/acid balance. The yeasty taste will drop out when you cold crash it. When you and you wife are both happy with it, rack it and put in the fridge for a couple days. It wont be much longer to wait now. The SG will be dropping pretty fast, so check about every 12 hours starting tomorrow

CvilleKevin said:

Thats about right for a gallon batch. I'm pretty sure that the problem with bad Notty batch was that it had got overheated in a warehouse somewhere and people were having problems with ferments not starting. But that doesnt seem to be a problem with your batch. Notty has always been 100 percent reliable for me.

You might want to check for taste tomorrow. It will probably still be too sweet, but with the temps being a little on the warm side, it wont hurt to check. I crashed almost all of my DME batches last night after only 6 days and I wish I had checked them a day earlier - they had got down to 1.004, and that was after I bumped the SG up to 1.065 with DME - so with no sugar, you may have something that tastes pretty good after just 3-4 days. It will be a little yeasty when you taste it, so try to ignore that and just focus on the sugar/acid balance. The yeasty taste will drop out when you cold crash it. When you and you wife are both happy with it, rack it and put in the fridge for a couple days. It wont be much longer to wait now. The SG will be dropping pretty fast, so check about every 12 hours starting tomorrow

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I didn't buy a hydrometer - they DID have a $5 one but it looked a lot smaller than any of the others ive seen so I didn't get it. I figure this batch I will just go on a whim and brew. Can't wait to start beer and wine someday!

Thanks for all of the help! I'll let you know how its tasting.

Well I sanitized everything tonight and even bought a hydrometer.

I never got to take an OG reading of anything but I easily siphoned some cider out into the long, slender container to drop in the hydrometer. The hydrometer read 1.028 at about 3.9% ABV (if this is even a correct reading? I've never done it before).

The smell smells like wine. There's not much of an apple smell left and it tastes (warm) like a warm wine with a hint of apple. You can definitely smell the alcohol in it though. There was almost a SLIGHT vinegary taste but it was warm.

I put a temperature strip on the side of the gallon jug tonight and its reading 77-79. Should I try to put it in a tiny ice bath or is it too late?

Thanks

You're OK - at 1.028 you have fermented about half of the sugar. It would be good if you can keep it cooler, but an ice bath is probably more likely to shock it than help. I'd give it at least another day before deciding when to cold crash it. 1.028 is definitely on the sweet side, but that is about the level of most commercial ciders. I usually try to stop it around 1.010, but its a matter of taste. My girlfriend would probably say stop it right there and plenty of folks like it dryer, like around 1.004, but its up to you.

CvilleKevin said:

You're OK - at 1.028 you have fermented about half of the sugar. It would be good if you can keep it cooler, but an ice bath is probably more likely to shock it than help. I'd give it at least another day before deciding when to cold crash it. 1.028 is definitely on the sweet side, but that is about the level of most commercial ciders. I usually try to stop it around 1.010, but its a matter of taste. My girlfriend would probably say stop it right there and plenty of folks like it dryer, like around 1.004, but its up to you.

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Gah my last post didn't 'go'.

I moved the container to the side porch (enclosed) and it dropped to 73F from 78-79. I won't be home until Sunday night after Tomorrow evening. Would I be safe letting it go until Sunday night? That will be a total of 8 days.

Next is a 5 gallon batch of Apfelwein! I just need to get a carboy, dextrose, yeast, and the apple juice.

Is there a thread on here for selecting a good juice from the store? I don't want to pay $5/gallon for this stuff I bought for this project if I can avoid it! lol.

Thanks

I suggest checking it before you leave and if you and your wife like the taste, rack it and put it in the fridge. By the time you come back it will be nice and clear. If you like it dry, you can wait till Sunday, but my guess is that all the sugar will be fermented off by then.

I've tried a few different store bought juices and they have all tasted like crap compared to what I get at the press. If you go back to the farmer that you bought the first juice from and tell him you are making cider, he will probably let you bring your carboy to the press and buy the juice a good bit cheaper.

We tasted it and it is *good*. I am going away tomorrow until Sunday so I decided to rack it into another container to "cold crash" as you put it.

Its cloudy as all hell (that wouldnt stop me from drinking it! LOL). I
m going to make a bet that it will be gone by the time I get back in town! I hope so. Next i'm trying out 5gal of Apfelwein. I'm assuming they taste about the same, no? Either way it can't be too horrible.

Thanks for all of your help. I'll update this thread when I get back about how much of that 1 gallon is left!

Once its in the fridge for a couple of days it will get nice and clear and should form a nice compact sediment on the bottom.

If you look at the last page of the sticky, you will see a couple of pics that I took of a carboy that I crashed after 6 days. Yours probably looks a lot like the ones on the right. Within 24 hours, yours should get nice and clear like the one on the left. If you can wait 2 or 3 days with it in the fridge, before you rack it again, that would be even better. If you think it is good now, it will taste even better after it sits in the fridge for a few days and you rack it off the sediment that drops out in the fridge.

Tell your wife to wait at least two days before racking it back into its original container. It will taste much better that way, plus either 1) she will become handy with the autosiphon, which is a good thing or 2) wait for you to get back, which would be even better.

Ive never made apfelwein, but I've been making cider long enough to spot a few flaws in the recipe:
1) you can probably find better juice than what you got for this batch, since it is still early in the season, but it definitely wont be at the super market. If you go back to the farmer you got the cider from, bring him a little sip of the stuff you made and ask if you could get a better price if you bring your carboy to the press, chances are, he will hook you up. supermarket juice generally tastes like ass when it ferments out.
2) champagne yeast ferments a lot more dry and with less apple taste than ale yeast.
3) dextrose is not a good sugar adjunct for cider. People think it has a neutral taste, and it does if you are making beer, because it ferments out with an aftertaste like beer. If you want something that ferments out with an aftertaste more like apples, use a mix of 2/3 organic sugar and 1/3 dextrose. regular white sugar is not quite as good, but better than dextrose for ciders. You wouldnt want to use white sugar in beer but for cider it is OK. You can try the apfelwein recipie if you want, but you should know what something good tastes like first so you'll have a good point of reference. cheers!

If you want to try something different, try adding 2 lbs of sugar in 5 gallons with US05 yeast. Or add 3lbs wildflower or white sage honey and use the S04 again. Either of those will come out great.

Well...I'm not sure how a real "hard cider" is supposed to taste but this one tastes like..well..it doesn't taste like Cider. It tastes almost like a weird oaky wine at the moment. I went back and bought a half gallon and mixed some of that with the fermented cider and it tasted fine.

Is it typical to try and sweeten it again before drinking by either adding some sugar or the add the same cider back to it? The wife wont touch it either way! IDK. Shes not much of a beer or wine drinker to be honest.

I thought id let you know how it was going though...

It sounds like it fermented all the way out. So what happened since the 24th, when it tasted good, and now? Did you finish the cold crash when you got back in town? What is the SG now?

Yeah, a lot of people backsweeten after a ferment goes too far. Half the posts on this board are about how to backsweeten. IMHO, the goal is not to backsweeten but to catch it right about where it was on the 24th when it was good.

The best backsweetener usually depends on the exact taste once its fermented out. The original juice often works well, as does white and organic cane sugar, corn sugar, and agave. Use what matches the cider best.

Thats the thing about cider - it is unforgiving of when you have to go out of town. It sounds like you caught it and started the crash at the right place tho. So what happened?

CvilleKevin said:

It sounds like it fermented all the way out. So what happened since the 24th, when it tasted good, and now? Did you finish the cold crash when you got back in town? What is the SG now?

Yeah, a lot of people backsweeten after a ferment goes too far. Half the posts on this board are about how to backsweeten. IMHO, the goal is not to backsweeten but to catch it right about where it was on the 24th when it was good.

The best backsweetener usually depends on the exact taste once its fermented out. The original juice often works well, as does white and organic cane sugar, corn sugar, and agave. Use what matches the cider best.

Thats the thing about cider - it is unforgiving of when you have to go out of town. It sounds like you caught it and started the crash at the right place tho. So what happened?

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On the 24th I actually siphoned it into another jug and just let it sit in the fridge. It cleared up a little bit more but it tastes about like it did the day I crashed it (not too great). It's alcohol and it does the job but it isn't sweet at all and it has a weird after taste. You also have to remember it was a pretty warm ferment. I am pretty down and out on cash right now (scraping change for food) so theres no brewing (or anything for that matter) going on for a little while. lol I may have to resort to the hard cider as a couple meals in the coming week and a half.

It would be nice if it were legal to actually sell some of the brew Wishful thinking. I guess we should be happy it's legal to brew!....

Anyhow i'm rambling. Did I answer your questions?

What was the sg when you started the crash and what is the SG now? You said it tasted pretty good at the beginning of the crash. Was there a turning point where the taste went off?

Once its crashed for a couple of days, you want to rack it to a new container. This gets the cider off the sediment that is sitting on the bottom. Since you are only doing a gallon, I'd recommend racking into some smaller bottles or jars so that there wont be much headspace. If you've been drinking off the gallon while its been in the fridge for the last 10 days, its probably getting a bit oxidized by now. That might be the aftertaste or it could come from sitting on the yeast cake.

CvilleKevin said:

What was the sg when you started the crash and what is the SG now? You said it tasted pretty good at the beginning of the crash. Was there a turning point where the taste went off?

Once its crashed for a couple of days, you want to rack it to a new container. This gets the cider off the sediment that is sitting on the bottom. Since you are only doing a gallon, I'd recommend racking into some smaller bottles or jars so that there wont be much headspace. If you've been drinking off the gallon while its been in the fridge for the last 10 days, its probably getting a bit oxidized by now. That might be the aftertaste or it could come from sitting on the yeast cake.

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I need to take the SG. Theres less than a half gallon left but I will have to take it once I get home. I'm at work right now.

I'll let you know...