Water Chemistry - Nassau County, Long Island, New York

Hello All,

I have been home brewing for a little less than 2 years and just started all grain brewing. My brews have never been as good as I had hoped and they all seem to need aging for them to A. taste decent or B. be drinkable. I've gotten weird off flavors from cloying sweetness, hotness (fusel alcohol from fermenting too hot), to a band aid flavor in my current pumpkin ale (but that was the flavor after 3 weeks in the primary. It's currently in the secondary being dry hopped and I'm hoping I won't have to wait until next Halloween for this to be drinkable).

Anyway, I am trying to figure out why all of my brews have been disappointing. I'm looking at the water I use. Below is my water quality report. According to this site http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html my tap water is low in several areas.

I am hoping that I can get some guidance and clarification (I may be reading this water quality report wrong). Any help would be greatly appreciated. I love this hobby, but am tired of hoping things will just work themselves out.

Are you getting rid of the chlorine in your water? That could cause off flavors, though those wouldn't normally age out. The band aid flavor in the pumpkin ale sounds like an infection. Your report doesn't list akalinity, but based on your calcium/sodium/magnesium (and relatively low sulfate/chloride) you could have some appreciable alkalinity (though not a huge amount) to deal with.

It looks like that water should be a decent starting point for brewing. The main issues are going to be neutralizing excess alkalinity and removing chlorine compounds. With those issues addressed, this should be a good brewing water and ready for mineral additions as needed.

I have not been treating my water at all. There was 1 extract brew that I made in which I used water from my fridge that has a purifier in it, but I did not notice a difference in the final beer. I heard (and read) that if the water is good enough to drink, it's good enough to brew with. My water tastes great and doesn't smell like chlorine.

In order to remove the chlorine from my water I should use Campden Tablets, correct? Will this also neutralize excess alkalinity? I'm still very new at this and water treatment is something I've never done before.

I also contacted my local water authority to see if they can provide me with details regarding alkalinity, ph, and the amount of chlorine present in the water.

Lastly, I'm hoping the pumpkin ale is not infected. I read a threat about someone having a kind of band aid like flavor to their brew, but it was at the same stage of where mine is at and theirs turned out fine. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed because it tasted great prior to pitching the yeast.

J0N said:

In order to remove the chlorine from my water I should use Campden Tablets, correct? Will this also neutralize excess alkalinity? I'm still very new at this and water treatment is something I've never done before.

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Yes, campden tablets would work for neutralizing chlorine. No, they won't remove alkalinity (I think they actually add a very small amount of alkalinity...though not enough to be worried about.).

J0N said:

I heard (and read) that if the water is good enough to drink, it's good enough to brew with. My water tastes great and doesn't smell like chlorine.

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A more important quote: Good tasting water can still make bad beer.

I heard back from my water district center and my average level of chlorine is .3ppm and the PH is an average between 8.0 and 8.2. So 2 questions: Is .3ppm enough chlorine that I need to remove it from my brewing water? And how can I soften my water to bring down my PH?

Thanks!

J0N said:

I heard back from my water district center and my average level of chlorine is .3ppm and the PH is an average between 8.0 and 8.2. So 2 questions: Is .3ppm enough chlorine that I need to remove it from my brewing water? And how can I soften my water to bring down my PH?

Thanks!

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Yes, .3ppm is enough to worry about. Fortunately campden tablets are wicked cheap.

You don't actually want to soften your water. You want to add hardness (calcium and magnesium...though you should mostly only add calcium)...by adding either calcium sulfate (gypsum) or calcium chloride. You want you calcium level in the 50-150 range. The calcium reacts with stuff in the malt to help (somewhat) lower the pH. Your primary tool for getting rid of excess alkalinity will be phosphoric or lactic acid (or, to some extent, dark grains/crystal malts...if you brew a porter for example).

To summarize, I should do the following:

- Remove chlorine (always)

- Add hardness (calcium: ie gypsum)
- Remove excess alkalinity

The amount of calcium I need to add and alkalinity that needs to be removed is based upon the type of beer I'm making.

Also, I'm not comfortable adding phosphoric or lactic acid. If this is used to acidify the brewing water, can I add something like lemon or white vinegar?

J0N said:

To summarize, I should do the following:

- Remove chlorine (always)

- Add hardness (calcium: ie gypsum)
- Remove excess alkalinity

The amount of calcium I need to add and alkalinity that needs to be removed is based upon the type of beer I'm making.

Also, I'm not comfortable adding phosphoric or lactic acid. If this is used to acidify the brewing water, can I add something like lemon or white vinegar?

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There is almost no chance that you could use lemon or vinegar for acidification unless your alkalinity was already very low. The taste thresholds for those acids are low. Are you concerned about adding natural materials to your beer? If so, phosphoric acid and lactic acid are natural. But then, so are cyanide and arsenic. I'm pretty sure I could 'live' with adding phosphoric or lactic acid, probably not with the other substances. ;-)

How about citric acid?

Those who remember the old, old days of home brewing will remember that a tsp full of citric acid was found in many of the recipes published then. You never see it mentioned today and I always assumed that the reason was the flavor. But then we now load our beers with Citra hops so perhaps it's time to revisit citric acid in brewing. For one thing it has a pK (4.77) close enough to mash pH that one might think of a citrate buffer which would be more effective at holding mash pH than the phosphate buffer in the 5-star product. I'm guessing that flavor is the killer with citrate.

J0N said:

To summarize, I should do the following:

- Remove chlorine (always)

- Add hardness (calcium: ie gypsum)
- Remove excess alkalinity

The amount of calcium I need to add and alkalinity that needs to be removed is based upon the type of beer I'm making.

Also, I'm not comfortable adding phosphoric or lactic acid. If this is used to acidify the brewing water, can I add something like lemon or white vinegar?

Click to expand...

If you're worried about using the acids out of fear of handling them, rest assured. You're not in danger of harming yourself (I wouldn't pour it in your eyes, though).

I don't like consuming synthetic or animal products, but I read the following concerning lactic acid, which I will need to confirm with the products manufacturer prior to purchasing.

"If it’s lactate or lactic acid, it’s not from dairy (exception – sterol lactate due to the stearic acid). “Lac” ingredients are usually produced by a fermentation process using cornstarch or beet sugar. Lactose is always from dairy."

If that's the case, I would use it.

J0N said:

I don't like consuming synthetic or animal products, but I read the following concerning lactic acid, which I will need to confirm with the products manufacturer prior to purchasing.

"If it’s lactate or lactic acid, it’s not from dairy (exception – sterol lactate due to the stearic acid). “Lac” ingredients are usually produced by a fermentation process using cornstarch or beet sugar. Lactose is always from dairy."

If that's the case, I would use it.

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As far as I know, all lactic acid used in foods these days is produced using lactobacillus (a bacteria), as your quote states. That'd be the fermentation process they mention with corn starch/beet sugar. Traditionally with pilsners, for example, brewers would do an acid rest at 95 degrees to allow the lacto bacteria on the malt to grow and produce acid, lowering the mash pH before starch conversion happens. It's much more reliable to use liquid acid though.

How odd. My last post was done from my iPad, which seems to have not pasted in the text properly. Here it is, corrected.

"If it’s lactate or lactic acid, it’s not from dairy (exception – sterol lactate due to the stearic acid). “Lac” ingredients are usually produced by a fermentation process using cornstarch or beet sugar. Lactose is always from dairy."

Anyway, thank you for the clarification (and brief history lesson). You guys are a wealth of knowledge. It's greatly appreciated.

I also contacted LD Carlson earlier to ask them about their lactic acid. Thanks again!

Also, if I boiled over 6 gallons or wort (for a 5 gallon batch) and did not top off with tap water, would that remove the chlorine or does the water need to be boiled prior to mashing?

J0N said:

Also, if I boiled over 6 gallons or wort (for a 5 gallon batch) and did not top off with tap water, would that remove the chlorine or does the water need to be boiled prior to mashing?

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It is better practice to remove chlorine or chloramines before the mash process. 1/4 to 1/2 of a campden tablet, crushed and stirred well into the brewing water will remove the chlorine. You can do this the night before... others have luck right before the brew day.

Look in the sticky section for how to apply campden.

Will do. I have also read a few different responses in regards to boiling water to remove chlorine. I read it needs to be boiled for 3 min, 15 min, and 20 min. I am not sure which is accurate.

I believe that boiling time will be sensitive to the batch size, and exposure to surface area of the boil kettle... creating nucleation sites. This also has a potential impact of de-carbonating the water, precipitating bicarbonates and calcium and lowering alkalinity which will require modification to your salt additions.

Campden is extremely easy, effective and does not use fuel to heat a mass of water, nor does it dramatically modify ion concentrations (as far as I know ).

This thread has been really helpful. Thanks everyone!

Awesome thread! I'm from New York and live in DC, but I expect to brew back in Nassau in a few months from now. Quick question, what did the water company say about the alkalinity? Didn't see you mention anything about it here.

Thanks Again.