Exctract v All Grain ? and ? on that "hombrewy" flavor

Im about to get set up to brew All grain, based on what i've read this will give me much more control over the grains and other variables. Will I be able to achieve my desired color with All grain easier than exctract brewing? Also, do you believe the final product is noticably better Allgrain v extract brewing?

My brews so far have all had a similar "hombrewy" flavor that's hard to describe, wierd thing is it's similar in all my batches whicha have been drastically different. I've done a Honey wheat, a Pumking clone, a Xmas ale, and now Valencia wheat.....and somehow they all have a common characteristic i can only describe as a homebrewy flavor...it's really not a great flavor either honestly, one i'd like to eliminate. It's almost a caramilzed flavor that leads me to beleive the extract has been carmalizing with my extract brewing..or it could be i always use white labs yeast....possibly???

Anyone else notice this early in their brewing career?

Thanks for any suggestions/help...

What kind of beers do you usually drink (commercial ones)? It could be a result of having more yeast in an unfiltered beer.

Do you drink out of the bottle, or do you pour off the yeast into a glass?

Yes, it's easier to get the color you want when doing all grain, although you can always add extract later in your boil to achieve a lighter extract beer.

Will all grain make your beer taste better? Not necessarily. Extract is still around because it can make some darn fine beers. All grain lets you put in however much of whatever you want, but that doesn't make it taste better than extract by default.

I think the 'homebrewy' taste your referring to is just you drinking an unpasteurized beer. It's raw, the yeast is still there. If you took your homebrew and filtered it and pasteurized it it would most likly tast commercial.....But That is why i homebrew....i hate the 'commercial' taste.

And usually the difference in taste between a home-brewed ale and a store-bought lager.

IMO homebrew flavor is from fermentation mistakes. Learn more and it goes away.

Conroe said:

IMO homebrew flavor is from fermentation mistakes. Learn more and it goes away.

Click to expand...

I agree, but wouldn't call it mistakes... rather unfavorable fermentation conditions. although i'm still a newb, i noticed the same taste and thought it was from extract. my fermentation temperatures were way too high so i decided to make a swamp cooler. this was used to keep conditions on the cooler side of the temp range for the yeast i was using. the next batch i made with the same yeast didn't have as much of the "homebrewy" taste as you describe.

My "homebrew flavor" came from fermenting at too high temperatures.

When doing all grain you have more control over the variables of your beer but I wouldn't say my beers are better than my extract recipes. Just more fun to do. Like the others said, the homebrewy taste could be the unfiltered beer. Could also have something to do with your fermentation process. I personally haven't noticed what I would classify as a specific taste in all of my beers. What I have noticed is that they seem to have more body and overall flavors than their commercial counterparts.

Wheatmeister said:

Anyone else notice this early in their brewing career?

Thanks for any suggestions/help...

Click to expand...

Perhaps this helps:

I started with non-boil kits, coopers to be more specific, and the batches all had a similar flavor too, which is sort of what you describe, and I called it coopers flavor. A few batches later, I realized I was fermenting it at too high temps and the dry yeast that comes with the kits is not very good. I changed both the temp and yeast, kept doing the kits, and got rid of the coopers flavor, bingo!

Then, I upgraded to boiling extract and my first brew, a pale ale, now in the bottle for 2 weeks tastes way better than the kits, even after I fixed the temp and yeast problem.

Just recently I bought all the stuff for AG in a very lucky deal out of craigslist. According to Palmer (I love his book) you can do great beers with extract and steeping of specialty grains (like the stout I have fermenting right now), but an upgrade to AG is needed to make any possible type of beer. So, AG is not so much about making better beers, but more about having more alternatives at a lower cost of ingredients, although it takes quite some time to pay off the investment in extra equipment for AG…

I have also heard that old LME can cause an odd flavor.

to all those who zeroed on fermentation management.

Wheatmeister, I'm going to ask you the same questions I ask of every new brewer who contemplates all-grain: Can you manage your ferment? Do you have a temperature-controlled fermentation space? Do you understand yeast, how they live, and their role in the brewery (including pitch rates)?

If the answer is "No" to any of the above questions, I'm going to give you the same advice I give everyone in your situation: Don't go all-grain yet. Because if you don't have your ferments under control, getting into all-grain brewing is putting the cart before the horse. Because if you don't have your ferments under control, it doesn't matter what goes into the fermenter. What comes out of the fermenter will still be lackluster, you'll have wasted twice to thrice the work and time brewing, and you will be out a lot of money on equipment.

Managing your ferment temperature is not complicated. You need a spare refrigerator - often available free on Craigslist - and a temperature controller like this one. Then you need knowledge. Read up on the life of yeast, pitching rates, etc. Hell, most of that is here on HBT.

Master your yeast before you master your mash. You can make fantastic beer without ever touching mashing equipment because you understand yeast. You can malt your own grain, agonize over mash-liquor chemistry and sparge technique, and still make lousy beer because you don't understand yeast.

You can do this!

Cheers,

Bob

Bob said:

to all those who zeroed on fermentation management.

Wheatmeister, I'm going to ask you the same questions I ask of every new brewer who contemplates all-grain: Can you manage your ferment? Do you have a temperature-controlled fermentation space? Do you understand yeast, how they live, and their role in the brewery (including pitch rates)?

If the answer is "No" to any of the above questions, I'm going to give you the same advice I give everyone in your situation: Don't go all-grain yet. Because if you don't have your ferments under control, getting into all-grain brewing is putting the cart before the horse. Because if you don't have your ferments under control, it doesn't matter what goes into the fermenter. What comes out of the fermenter will still be lackluster, you'll have wasted twice to thrice the work and time brewing, and you will be out a lot of money on equipment.

Managing your ferment temperature is not complicated. You need a spare refrigerator - often available free on Craigslist - and a temperature controller like this one. Then you need knowledge. Read up on the life of yeast, pitching rates, etc. Hell, most of that is here on HBT.

Master your yeast before you master your mash. You can make fantastic beer without ever touching mashing equipment because you understand yeast. You can malt your own grain, agonize over mash-liquor chemistry and sparge technique, and still make lousy beer because you don't understand yeast.

You can do this!

Cheers,

Bob

Click to expand...

I love this response!

Fermentation control made the biggest difference in my extract batches. I have moved to all-grain, but it didn't have NEAR the effect on the final product as temp. control. I'm glad I learned fermentation control before moving to grain, because I now have no fear going back to do an occasional extract batch. Sometimes, I just don't have the time for AG, but I never worry that I'm going to get an inferior beer because of it.

Bob said:

to all those who zeroed on fermentation management.

Managing your ferment temperature is not complicated. You need a spare refrigerator - often available free on Craigslist - and a temperature controller like this one. Then you need knowledge. Read up on the life of yeast, pitching rates, etc. Hell, most of that is here on HBT.

Click to expand...

I agree that temperature control is of utmost importance, however excellent beer can be made without a second fridge and expensive temp controller. It all depends on how much you need to control your brewing environment. For example, I live in California where, for most of the fall, winter and spring months, natural temperatures stay right around ideal fermentation temperatures. So for those months, I don't need to do anything to change temperatures. During the summer when it is hotter, I use a cube cooler and frozen water bottles to maintain proper fermentation temperatures. My point is that, yes controlling temperature is important, but insisting that people need the space for, and need to buy a lot more equipment is not fair advice. There are ways to achieve excellent results without having to spend huge amounts of money and have a lot of extra space. It's kind of like telling someone that they can't go all grain unless they buy a Blichmann Top Tier Brewing Stand when there are many other options.

My advice to the OP would be to try to eliminate the off flavors in your extract beer first. Yes, AG gives you more control and once your process is fine tuned you will most likely make better beer. However, if you don't know what's going on and what you are doing you can make much worse beer or maybe not even make beer at all.

I would recommend trying the following:

1. Be aware of what temperature your beer is fermenting at and take steps to control the temp if necessary (a cube cooler filled with water and adding ice here and there to maintain the desired temp works just fine for $30)
2. Have a qualified person taste your beer to make sure your "homebrew flavors" are not coming from contamination
3. Try brewing a batch with bottled spring water to make sure your water is not the problem
4. Try cold crashing ( you can do this in your $30 cube cooler as well) and maybe adding finings such as gelatin or isinglass to settle out the yeast to make sure the flavors you are detecting are not coming from suspended yeast
5. Try adding your extract at the end of the boil

JonK331 said:

I agree that temperature control is of utmost importance, however excellent beer can be made without a second fridge and expensive temp controller.

Click to expand...

I agree with this to a point. If you have space for a swamp cooler, you've got space for a fridge and temperature controller. With a controlled fridge, you can do anything, including lager beers.

A controller is, what? $70? $80? Hardly expensive, especially when compared to buying an all-grain setup.

Also, convenience is worth something, at least to me. I can set a temperature on a controlled fridge and leave it alone, totally forget about it. Can't do that with a swamp cooler. I can serve draught beer from the same fridge. Can't do that with a swamp cooler.

The rest of your post I agree with 100%.

Anyway, /HIJACK.

Bob

believe enough of what you read around here and you would be amazed that people made beer thousands of years before refrigeration or star san existed

Bob said:

I agree with this to a point. If you have space for a swamp cooler, you've got space for a fridge and temperature controller. With a controlled fridge, you can do anything, including lager beers.

A controller is, what? $70? $80? Hardly expensive, especially when compared to buying an all-grain setup.

Also, convenience is worth something, at least to me. I can set a temperature on a controlled fridge and leave it alone, totally forget about it. Can't do that with a swamp cooler. I can serve draught beer from the same fridge. Can't do that with a swamp cooler.

The rest of your post I agree with 100%.

Anyway, /HIJACK.

Bob

Click to expand...

No doubt that a fridge and temp controller is far better than a swamp cooler, but the swamp cooler is far better than no temp control at all.

KeithMoonsLiver said:

believe enough of what you read around here and you would be amazed that people made beer thousands of years before refrigeration or star san existed

Click to expand...

People practiced rudimentary surgery for thousands of years too, but nobody's arguing that it was good surgery!

Shooter said:

People practiced rudimentary surgery for thousands of years too, but nobody's arguing that it was good surgery!

Click to expand...

You don't have to go back thousands of years to find homebrewers who do not temp control using a refrigerator either. Commercial breweries were lagering before refrigeration was invented. And people found it good enough to buy it since the recipes still exist.

Hell, the very basic of French cuisine was invented when refrigeration was nothing more than a pipe dream for many restaurateurs. They used ice boxes and cellars to keep produce fresh and prevent spoilage. You can build an ice box or put the beer in a cool room in water for next to zero dollars. Used firdges are a dime a dozen, but they consume vast amount of electricity and arguing that they take the same place as a swamp cooler is ridiculous. I brew in a closet, would a huge fridge fit in there ? Not a chance... Yet if I open my window today, I can get the brew room to 12 Celcius in an hour, wich is lower than most recommended temperature for ales. Add the ice cold water and I can drop even more.

Now is a fridge more convenient ? Yes. Is a swmap cooler as good ? Probably not. Does it make such a difference that you can compare using a swamp cooler to 1426 surgery ? Hell no If you had to have top of the game equipment to make a good brew, nobody would be on this site talking about fermenting in plastic buckets foud at Home Depot.

Oh, here we go.

Someone posts something actually helpful, and They come out.

Look, people, I'm not saying you can't brew good - even excellent - beer without a controlled fridge. I'm saying if you're going to drop coin on gear, drop it right and drop it once. And drop it on something you should prioritize.

In this case, drop coin on temperature control for your ferments. Instead of dropping coin on stuff to make a swamp cooler, then upgrading to a fridge later - because you more than probably will - drop the coin on the best stuff first. If you buy swamp-cooler stuff first then the fridge setup later, that's throwing good money after bad. It's false economy. Because instead of just paying $50-80 for the fridge and temperature controller, you're paying $100-150 - the $50-80 for the fridge and the swamp cooler setup.

Yes, people brewed beer for thousands of years before modern technology. But that doesn't mean you should brew in a cave, fer crissake. If you think I'm saying you need all the tech to brew good beer, KeithMoonsLiver, you're utterly, completely and hopelessly wrong.

You want to brew the best beer you can? You get all the tools together and you learn your craft. You want to brew in a cave? Go ahead.

Bob

If you can't make good extract beers going all grain will not help you. Pitching warm and fermenting without any control over temps are mistakes.

I would never tell someone not to go all grain. It's not all that difficult. It does add some more variables. It's not something that can't be learned at the same time.

Bob said:

Oh, here we go.

Someone posts something actually helpful, and They come out.

Look, people, I'm not saying you can't brew good - even excellent - beer without a controlled fridge. I'm saying if you're going to drop coin on gear, drop it right and drop it once. And drop it on something you should prioritize.

In this case, drop coin on temperature control for your ferments. Instead of dropping coin on stuff to make a swamp cooler, then upgrading to a fridge later - because you more than probably will - drop the coin on the best stuff first. If you buy swamp-cooler stuff first then the fridge setup later, that's throwing good money after bad. It's false economy. Because instead of just paying $50-80 for the fridge and temperature controller, you're paying $100-150 - the $50-80 for the fridge and the swamp cooler setup.

Yes, people brewed beer for thousands of years before modern technology. But that doesn't mean you should brew in a cave, fer crissake. If you think I'm saying you need all the tech to brew good beer, KeithMoonsLiver, you're utterly, completely and hopelessly wrong.

You want to brew the best beer you can? You get all the tools together and you learn your craft. You want to brew in a cave? Go ahead.

Bob

Click to expand...

I don't pretend to have an incredible amount of science or anything, but I paid exactly 0$ for my swamp cooler setup since I already had an old rubbermaid bin lying around. Hell I have one more of them plus an old picnic cooler that only carboys fit into. I also have a lot of t-shirts and blankets. Had I none of these things, I sure would have been better off buying a fridge, but who doesn't have that around the house ?

Some people cannot get a fridge. They simply cannot. It's really unfair to say to people who cannot afford the space that they supposedly "don't want to brew the best beer they can".

I'm still getting a fridge once I stop renting though

Why would you not mention water? That was my downfall for all of my all-grain and to a lesser degree, extract batches.

I also beleive that homebrew flavor is simply the palatte of growing up in America, drinking lagers almost exclusively, throw in the occasional "dark" beer. Now you are drinking ales...lot different.

I moved to all grain for $20. I bought a stainless steel braid set-up, some ferm cap, and used a 26 quart cooler i had laying around. While I agree temp control is more important, acting like going AG requires a big investment is wrong. I save at least 30-50% on ingredients now. Its worth it before temp control no doubt.

JNye said:

I also beleive that homebrew flavor is simply the palatte of growing up in America, drinking lagers almost exclusively, throw in the occasional "dark" beer. Now you are drinking ales...lot different.

I moved to all grain for $20. I bought a stainless steel braid set-up, some ferm cap, and used a 26 quart cooler i had laying around. While I agree temp control is more important, acting like going AG requires a big investment is wrong. I save at least 30-50% on ingredients now. Its worth it before temp control no doubt.

Click to expand...

I get where Bob is coming from. You can either go to AG and "do it right" form the start by getting all the goodies or you can use whatever you have lying around and try to make do with it. It'll still probably make fine beer if you are careful about fermentation, being clean and knowing your stuff, but it'll be a hassle and you will probably have to get things you will have to upgrade (sometimes sooner than later).

Or you can choose to get the tools wich will help alleviate the problems (stove too small, brew kettle to small, fermentation control is a *****, etc.) right from the get go so you don't have to fight your equipment or get "inventive". You also save money from not buying stuff that will turn out to be useless down the road. The investment in money is higher upfront but lower in the long run. That is if you don't upgrade and I think this is where the argument turns out to be pretty moot. We have people here who can brew 10 gallons easily inside in 3 hours but still decide to move to almost toal automation afterwards. Others are still happily brewing small 5.5 gallon batches on the stove and split boiling everything years down the road. Many people never go AG either.

I was a ski instructor/coach for the better part of a decade and you wouldn't believe some of the crap equipment regulars with constant 50 days seasons would still use. Were they skiing nonetheless ? Yes. Was it as easy and effortless as using brand new gear ? Hell no. Same thing for fishing or any hobby for that matter. You could brew in a hole in the ground lined with garbage bags, but the convenience and consistency that comes from using the right tools is much more valuable than saving the 15$ an ale pail cost.

Great feedback guys, much appreciated.

Ferment temps could be my main issue. Avg ferm temp for me is probly 70, maybe 71 to 72 tops. I'll also add the extract the last 15 of the boil for my next batch.

I already use distilled water and sanitize thoroughly, so doubt thats my issue. I also already have a full size fridge in the basement dedicated to beer, so im one step ahead there. Probly need to invest in a temp control device, I'm taking Bob's advice, and will hold off on purchasing the AG equipment until i get my processes down.

What should my target ferment temp be? I know it varies but i have been under the impression 68 was ideal for ales.....?

Again, thanks again for all the great tips..

Selfsufficient said:

Why would you not mention water? That was my downfall for all of my all-grain and to a lesser degree, extract batches.

Click to expand...

Thank you for finally mentioning this! Before I learned water chem all my all-grains had a mild, similar taste to them I could not pinpoint. Considering water is 90% + of beer, it plays a huge role in flavor.

To move on to all-grains you want to be sure that you can produce extract beers with confidence. Because if you do an all-grain and it turns out bad, you'll have too many probable causes. Problems that can most likely be scratched off with extract brewing experience: fermentation temp, sanitization issue, the yeast, aerating the wort, old hops, old adjuncts, oxidation, etc. And of course there is no guarantees these won't occur in your all-grains. It's just best to get these out the way and possibly familiarize yourself with them before you add on a hundred other probable causes that come with doing all-grains.

As far as temp goes, depends on the beer. Usually the lower of the suggested, which will most often be 68. For Belgians I like to keep them around 72 to add to their funkiness.

I agree with everyone who said that the "homebrew" taste almost certainly comes from improper fermentation technique. From personal experience, controlling fermentation temperatures led to the single greatest improvement in my beer.

I'd also note that every time I've followed Bob's advice, my beer has gotten better.

But I agree, as a renter, getting a second fridge or chest freezer for a fermentation chamber is not always possible. It depends how much of the brewery you want taking over your apartment! Other options (I've used a rubbermaid garbage can filled with water in the past) might suit your situation better.

Finally, if you are only concerned with making delicious beer, you don't need to go to all grain. Control fermentation, and you can make great beer. But, all grain is fun! And that's an important part of the joy of brewing!

jfr1111 said:

Some people cannot get a fridge. They simply cannot. It's really unfair to say to people who cannot afford the space that they supposedly "don't want to brew the best beer they can".

Click to expand...

Good, because that's not what I said.

I'm not trying to make the best the enemy of the good. At no time did I say that.

Thank you for supporting me on the equipment issue.

Wheatmeister, two things: Distilled water is actually about the worst choice for brewing liquor, and optimal temperatures vary.

Water chemistry is a complicated subject. For the purposes of this discussion, distilled water has all the minerals removed, minerals which are essential at various points in the brewing process.

The optimal temperature for fermentation depends on the yeast strain and what you're trying to accomplish. It's not as simple as "Ales ferment at 68F."

Bob

I believe the majority here does not have a fridge or freezer with temperature controller and still make excellent beer... I think maybe Revvy got some honor awards with his Vienna Lager by just taking advantage of cooler spaces in his house or something like that.

Do you guys worry too much about temp control during secondary/conditioning? I have always heard that control during primary is important, but after that not to worry about it too much. Not talking you can leave the beer in a sauna, but normal room temps (70-80) ok?

Bob said:

Good, because that's not what I said.

I'm not trying to make the best the enemy of the good. At no time did I say that.

Thank you for supporting me on the equipment issue.

Wheatmeister, two things: Distilled water is actually about the worst choice for brewing liquor, and optimal temperatures vary.

Water chemistry is a complicated subject. For the purposes of this discussion, distilled water has all the minerals removed, minerals which are essential at various points in the brewing process.

The optimal temperature for fermentation depends on the yeast strain and what you're trying to accomplish. It's not as simple as "Ales ferment at 68F."

Bob

Click to expand...

Great tip Bob. That being the case do you suggest I go with Spring water? As far as temps are concerned, should i just shoot for whatever the White Labs vial recommends?

Wheatmeister said:

Avg ferm temp for me is probly 70, maybe 71 to 72 tops. I'll also add the extract the last 15 of the boil for my next batch.

Click to expand...

Remember...fermentation temp is NOT the temperature of the environment which your fermentation vessel is in. What I mean by that is this: If the room in which you are fermenting your beer is 72F your fermentation temperature is likely higher than that due to fermentation being an exothermic process (meaning it produces and gives off heat).

Additionally, I will echo the words of a couple posters who have already commented. Bob, IMHO, is spot on in his advice to you. Most experienced brewers will tell you that one of the most important contributions to improving their beer was fermentation temperature control (within the ideal temp range for the specific yeast used). Legin also gives solid advice in urging you to master extract first, prior to moving to all-grain. Some people start brewing by jumping straight into all-grain, and that is fine. However, if you cannot make good extract beer, going all-grain is not going to change that with immediate effect. Many, many, many people brew exclusively using extracts and make fantastic beers that have won countless awards.

Let me reiterate something before I go...fermentation temperature control is probably the single most influential factor in improving my beer. That, coupled with improving my pitch rate using Mr Malty, have increased the quality of my beer consistently by leaps and bounds. Please note that those two things I mentioned both have to do with yeast. So another +1 to Bob on...knowing your yeast.

Where can I learn more about pitch rates? And what's Mr Malty, website I can reference?
Thanks in advance..

All of the above are good tips. For me, my extract brews tasted "canned" if you know what I mean. My AG brews don't have that.

I have brewed PM, then, AG, back to PM. What I found with PM that wasn't true of AG:

PM BREWS WITH DARK GRAINS NEED BAKING SODA TO GET THE PH RIGHT AND AVOID THE TWANG

Sorry, I think this is widely overlooked.

Bob said:

You want to brew the best beer you can? You get all the tools together and you learn your craft. You want to brew in a cave? Go ahead.

Bob

Click to expand...

Awesome!

I agree with this 100%. I'm brewing extracts, and making excellent beer. I've had many strangers sample my beer, and I have not had a negative remark yet, so I must be doing something right. I want to step up all grain but I dont want to make the step until I have everything in place. So I am saving my pennys.

Wheatmeister said:

Where can I learn more about pitch rates? And what's Mr Malty, website I can reference?
Thanks in advance..

Click to expand...

http://www.mrmalty.com/

Great timing on this post. I have experienced the same flavor profile with my beers, and believe it wass attributed to the ferm temps. The last 2 batches I did, I fermented in a closet in my wine cellar, which is pretty much a consistent 66 degrees. The closet is between the wine cellar and the living area of my basement, so it's not as cold as the cellar, but warmer than the living area. Anyway, all that to say, my last batch did not exhibit the off-taste that I was blaming on extract kits.

So I guess it's time to pick up another fridge. But my wife is going to kill me... we have a fridge upstairs, one in the basement, a deep freeze, a kegerator, and a temp controlled wine cellar. My carbon footprint just moved to a size 12-D.

Alright, while I tihnk everyone can agree on fermentation temperatures being one of, if not the biggest improvements when making your beer, we haven't talked about the OP's set up. I have been brewing for 1.5 years and have only done extract so far. Like most people, I am trying to save money for things other than brewing and cannot justify the $200 or so, that I need to buy a third fridge (kegorator is the second...). I think we need to stop debating this point and get back to the OP's set up.

In my limited experience, my extract brews got a lot better when I went to full boil and got an immersion chiller. I lost the weird flavor there. I do not have fermentation temp control YET (though it will be soon hopefully). Do you do full boils? how do you chill to pitching temps?

I do full boils with a late addition and found that my color, while a little darker, is still pretty damn close. I just did a Leffse Blonde and it came out great. Shocked myself really. My point is, look at your process first before going out and just buying new equipment.

ThickHead said:

Remember...fermentation temp is NOT the temperature of the environment which your fermentation vessel is in. What I mean by that is this: If the room in which you are fermenting your beer is 72F your fermentation temperature is likely higher than that due to fermentation being an exothermic process (meaning it produces and gives off heat).

Click to expand...

How much does the temp of the fermenting beer typically raise? I'm asking because I've been reading the ebay aquarium temp controller thread and am in the process of acquiring parts. When it's finished I'm wondering if I need to set the controller to a couple degrees cooler than my desired temp since the probe will not be in the beer.