Starters - dump or decant?

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tokolosh

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I've stepped up to making full 2L starters for my bigger beers. I only make 5g batches, most of them 1.065+.

I was wondering the general consensus or pros and cons about dumping the whole 2 liters of starter wort into primary vs decanting and just adding the slurry. Anybody have a noticeable difference in flavor?
 
I haven't noticed any actual differences but just the idea of dumping a 1/2 gallon of unhopped, warm fermented, oxidized beer into my wort doesn't sit well with me. That's why I decant.
 
I am a decanter... the only time I would pitch an active starter would be to revive a stuck fermentation.
 
Take a drink, do you really want that in your beer? 2L is a lot to dump in 5 gallons.
 
Agreed with above...I just don't want the excess in my beer. Plus, leaving room for a 2L starter means less quality wort.
 
does the refrigeration make the yeast less active? I mean, theoretically it's best to pitch at high krausen, not at dormancy. Nevertheless, you can't argue with results.
 
the refridgeration just helps the yeast drop out of suspension so the wort you decant off doesn't take a whole bunch of good yeasties with it.
 
Yeah, I've always decanted before, but I remember reading somewhere that a lot people pitch their starters at high krausen. I just tried it out on my last batch, I guess we'll see how it goes... although I'm starting to regret the experiment already.
 
Normally I either let all the yeast settle out or crash cool in the fridge and decant. My last batch I stepped up a small starter (600ml) of WLP001 to 1L and pitched the whole thing at high krausen and that sucker took off quicker than the prior starters I had decanted.

Obviously this is a small sample size (and yes I know the harms of making less than a 1L starter) so take it with a grain of salt. We will see if there are any off flavors since that is why I had always decanted as stated above.
 
Thats my delimma too. A friend who is a full time brewer and went to Seibel says you should always pitch at high krausen. I understand why, but am loth to dumping in that much volume of what is more than likely crappy tasting oxidized beer. Maybe its a smaller ratio on a commercial level?
 
Many people will pitch the entire starter volume. I usually make 2L starters which is equivalent to .53 gal or 10% of my fermenter volume. Even if I could be convinced it wouldn't affect the flavor of the end product it adds enough liquid volume to impact headspace for krasuen.
 
I heard Jamil Z and John Palmer talking about this on Brew Strong. They were saying that you should decant on larger volume starters but that pitching at high krausen is ideal. I emailed Jamil because they never mentioned what volume "large" was. He said that he wouldn't put any more than a 1L starter in a 5g batch of wort. That's not a lot of wiggle room for pitching at high krasen really. One thing I did hear either from them or another source was that they would use the larger starter to grow the yeast. Then decant. And then put a smaller starter on top of it to time it so that it would be at high krausen again when they were ready to pitch. Now I do wonder if that second feeding wouldn't just stress the yeast like too small of a starter would. All of that said, I've just started decanting all of my starters above 1L. In fact I use a dry yeast when the beer isn't big enough to need a starter and I can get the yeast profile I want from the dry options.
 
Whoa there, hold up! You drink it?!?!

I usually take a few swigs from the decanted beer from my starters. It gives me an early clue if there's anything horribly wrong.

But more than that, it's incredibly educational to see what flavors the yeast contributes when it's not competing with all the specialty grains and hops.

Nottingham is surprisingly fruity from a starter held around 75F. Wyeast 3711 has a lot of spice but finishes very clean and dry. Wyeast 3787 is pungent and complex. Well, you get the idea. I've learned more about the flavor contributions of different yeast by sampling the starter beers than I have from the batches of beer I brew with them.
 
Or for potential flavors from the yeast? What does it taste like?

It takes like whatever flavors the yeast contributes. There's no bitterness, no roastiness, no malt character. Just the yeast. Sometimes it's remarkably tasty, sometimes not so much but it's always very revealing.
 
Hmm, interesting. I never thought of it that way. Perhaps I'll take a swig next time.

you'd be surprised. I'm always making my girlfriend taste beers without telling her what it is first. Decanted the last starter I made and took a sip. It was really good. Took the glass into the next room. She said it was good, a little too malty. No ****. No hops!

I love making real wort starters. You can actually taste what you're beers gonna be like in 2-3 weeks.
 
I always decant my starters. I along with many others, just don't like the idea of putting all that starter wort in my beer.
 
If it tastes good, dump it all in. If there is a flavor that may influence your brew, decant.
 
I dump the entire contents...sometimes the stir bar too, lol.

What do you mean decant? Refrigerate to settle..I get that but then what just try to pour off the top without the trub?
 
I have a stirplate now and so most of my starters are now 1000ml so I have always just dumped. But I have thought about chilling and decanting for some high gravity beers that I have planned for the future.

Here's my question:

After decanting, you will obviously have a much thicker yeast slurry. Does anyone have issues with the higher viscosity starter sticking to the flask? I would think it would be harder to pour, but I have no experience with it.

Eric
 
After decanting, you will obviously have a much thicker yeast slurry. Does anyone have issues with the higher viscosity starter sticking to the flask? I would think it would be harder to pour, but I have no experience with it.

Eric

I have a kettle valve on my fermenter. After chilling the wort, I fill my (now decanted) flask about half full with wort and use that to 'rinse' the yeast.
 
After decanting, you will obviously have a much thicker yeast slurry. Does anyone have issues with the higher viscosity starter sticking to the flask?

When I decant, I leave enough wort to swirl around and get all the yeasties off the bottom. Kind of like you would in a White Labs vial.
 
I am mystified why some people take exception to high pitch rates.

The yeast will expire fall to the bottom and you can rack it off the cake for the secondary ferment.

Higher pitch rates are associated with better flavor structure.
 
Higher pitch rates are associated with better flavor structure.

It is possible to overpitch. It's not easy, but it's possible. Ester production occurs during yeast reproduction, so if there is literally no reproduction the beer (especially ale) might lack the desired character.
 
I usually take a few swigs from the decanted beer from my starters. It gives me an early clue if there's anything horribly wrong.

But more than that, it's incredibly educational to see what flavors the yeast contributes when it's not competing with all the specialty grains and hops.

Great idea! I never considered this, but often wondered of a good way to isolate the yeast flavor. Now I have one!
 
So is there anybody who pitches their starters at high krausen????

I always pitch at high krausen with 1-1.2L starters. Bigger than that I let it finish fermenting, refrigerate, and then decant. However, to be fair, most of my beers are 1.060 OG and under. So, I don't make too many 2L starters.
 
For those who worry about putting oxidized starter wort into their beer, do you not use O2 with a stone? what's the difference?

I make a starter the day before pitching. In the aerobic phase, the yeast are only reproducting, it's only after the O2 is used up, in the anaerobic phase, that alchol is produced. If you are using a stir plate for 24 hours I don't think alcohol is produced, thus it is not being truely oxidized, just aerated. I don't see any negative effects from doing this, other than impacting the grain bill if the starter is big enough.

Am I missing something?
 
For those who worry about putting oxidized starter wort into their beer, do you not use O2 with a stone? what's the difference?

I make a starter the day before pitching. In the aerobic phase, the yeast are only reproducting, it's only after the O2 is used up, in the anaerobic phase, that alchol is produced. If you are using a stir plate for 24 hours I don't think alcohol is produced, thus it is not being truely oxidized, just aerated. I don't see any negative effects from doing this, other than impacting the grain bill if the starter is big enough.

Am I missing something?

I grow starters from a small (10ml) test tube of yeast. It takes 2 weeks and about 5 stepups to grow my yeast. By then I've made almost 2 gallons of really bad beer. Sometimes it is quite stanky. I'm decanting that.
 
For those who worry about putting oxidized starter wort into their beer, do you not use O2 with a stone? what's the difference?

I make a starter the day before pitching. In the aerobic phase, the yeast are only reproducting, it's only after the O2 is used up, in the anaerobic phase, that alchol is produced. If you are using a stir plate for 24 hours I don't think alcohol is produced, thus it is not being truely oxidized, just aerated. I don't see any negative effects from doing this, other than impacting the grain bill if the starter is big enough.

Am I missing something?

Yes, I do aerate wort, but there is a big difference. Any wort aerated after the first 12 hours is being oxidized. When making a starter, I use a stir plate to continually get as much air in as possible. This is oxidizing the starter. And yes, you are making alcohol. If I'm ever in doubt, the way I tell if my starter is done is with my hydrometer.
 
Yes, I do aerate wort, but there is a big difference. Any wort aerated after the first 12 hours is being oxidized. When making a starter, I use a stir plate to continually get as much air in as possible. This is oxidizing the starter. And yes, you are making alcohol. If I'm ever in doubt, the way I tell if my starter is done is with my hydrometer.


Well, if after 12-18 hour when alcohol is being created, CO2 is also being produced, CO2 is more dense than O2 and CO2 is constantly being continually; therefore, O2 will not be a problem for the remaining 6-12 hours that it sits on the stir plate after alcohol production begins. It's never been a problem for me. I prefer to keep my yeast active until pitching, unless it's a huge starter that will F with the grain bill. Everyone has a different way to do this, evidently I'm in the minority here.
 
I grow starters from a small (10ml) test tube of yeast. It takes 2 weeks and about 5 stepups to grow my yeast. By then I've made almost 2 gallons of really bad beer. Sometimes it is quite stanky. I'm decanting that.

your yeast are way, way spoiled. that is way too much work for a starter for me.
 
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