Gas and Temperature Control for Dummies

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I have a couple more questions completely unrelated to each other:

1) am I correct that the pid from auber mentioned in this thread DOES NOT need a ssr to control the honeywell valve?

And 2) I am planning on using a 100 lb propane tank, with two low pressure bg14 burners, would it be ok to have the low pressure regulator on the tank?
 
The Auber PID internal relay is more than capable of operating the Honeywell ignition and valve. When you set this up it needs to be in on/off mode, not pid mode where it will try and cycle the valve like it would a SSR for a electric element. Since the time lag is greater than 4 minutes PID action is almost pointless, and auto tune counter productive. This is such a slow responding process that PID action usually will not work on warmup phase, after setpoint is reached it would be able to hold the temp through PID action as lag would be low enough for controller to handle.
The regulator can be installed on the tank, use the green adapter fitting or one without the flow limiter to save from accidental shutdowns when you fire 2 burners at high flow. Use a 3/8" minimum ID hose made for propane (black jacket and letters "CGA Type 1" embedded in hose jacket), not red or gray air hose which is not rated for that service and might be dangerous to use. Here is a link to a hose manufacturers page http://www.goodyearrubberproducts.com/2010newpdfs/Parker%20LP%20Gas.pdf, note the reason for this hose type construction Vs. air hose.
 
I haven't read the manual on the PID but from the websites specs it claims the ouput voltages are:

For SYL-4342 and SYL-4342P Relay Contact, 7A at 240VAC, 10A at 120VAC For SYL-4352 and SYL-4352P, 12VDC for SSR

If the pilot ignition module requires a 24volt AC signal where is it getting it from? This specfic module claims it only goes down to 120VAC. Can you set it to send a 24VAC signal to the pilot ignition module or does the ignition module accept 110VAC? Thanks!!!
 
I'm curious what folks do to protect their honeywell valves from the elements. My brew rig sits outside 24/7/365. Should I try to totally enclose it in something waterproof? Or is a splash guard sufficient to keep it from getting wet. It is stored up against the house under an eave, so there is some protection there.

Cheers!

Jeremy

Oh, and petrostar - you have to supply 24 VAC to the Auber PID and it switches it on/off with an internal relay...
 
Kladue, I am in need of some assistance. I have everything hooked up correctly per your original diagram in this post. As I initiate a call for heat the pilot sparks, flame ignites, spark stops, and then the burner valve opens and the burner comes on.. at this point everything looks to be working and then the burner shuts down and this cycle starts over. My guess is that for some reason the system thinks that the burner did not light, so i have a flame sensor on its way and when it arrives i will unhook the jumper wire and plug it in there to the sensor plug. I am worried that this wont be the fix because as it is now I can heat up the thermocouple with a butane torch and when everything lights up it actually works correctly. I have tried everything!! even when i set the pilot sensor directly into the burner flame it does not work. Please give me some input as I have invested over a million in to this thing and i need to breww!!!! Thanks
 
Man I'm frustrated, I built a system designed around this but i can't get it to work, I have everything completed, I just have to get this sucker to spark and I can start brewing, I have the PID wired correctly it is working like a charm, I get it to call for heat but I can't seem to get the spark module LED to even light up. I'm checking it tonight with a multimeter that will tell me exactly what voltage its getting, I didn't have one before that would tell me, just a cheap one that says hey there is voltage here. I'm worried the spark module is damaged but can't be sure until I go through the troubleshooting list.
 
rmaloney86 said:
Man I'm frustrated, I built a system designed around this but i can't get it to work, I have everything completed, I just have to get this sucker to spark and I can start brewing, I have the PID wired correctly it is working like a charm, I get it to call for heat but I can't seem to get the spark module LED to even light up. I'm checking it tonight with a multimeter that will tell me exactly what voltage its getting, I didn't have one before that would tell me, just a cheap one that says hey there is voltage here. I'm worried the spark module is damaged but can't be sure until I go through the troubleshooting list.
Click to expand...

Do you have the pid set to on/off mode? Just a thought hope you get it figure out
 
Ah, thought it may have been something silly like that. First thing I would check is that you are for sure getting 24v to the module, if you are, I would change out the retry tab. With my hot surface modules, I had to go to the the 7 second trial tab to give the gas time to get from the valve to the burner. That being said, I'm not even sure if the spark pilots are set up the same. Keep us posted though, I am interested to hear what you find out. Maybe kladue or sawdustguy will weigh in here. They know a heck of a lot more about this than I do.

One more question...do you have the pid switching the neutral 24v wire going to the ignition module?
 
If this is a S8600 series Honeywell ignition module then I hope you are wired to the 24V Gnd and the TH/W terminals, the other 24V terminal is only powered up when using a stack damper, otherwise it is left unconnected.
 
wncbrewer said:
Ah, thought it may have been something silly like that. First thing I would check is that you are for sure getting 24v to the module, if you are, I would change out the retry tab. With my hot surface modules, I had to go to the the 7 second trial tab to give the gas time to get from the valve to the burner. That being said, I'm not even sure if the spark pilots are set up the same. Keep us posted though, I am interested to hear what you find out. Maybe kladue or sawdustguy will weigh in here. They know a heck of a lot more about this than I do.

One more question...do you have the pid switching the neutral 24v wire going to the ignition module?
Click to expand...

I have the common coming off the 24vac transformer going to the 24v Ground on the ignition module, the load from the 24vac transformer is going to pin 6 on the pid and then out pin 7 to the TH/HW i think it is called... I didn't get to multimeter it last night ended fixing the lawnmower instead... need to get my priorities in order
 
I am not getting 24v from pin #7 on the PID, I have the 24v load going into pin 6, any suggestions? I think I have it in on/off mode, the SV is set to 110 the temp in my garage is 84 and the OUT LED is lit up. Could really use some help here, I'm stumped.
 
Also I have the Auber SLY-352 SSR control, is that the right one, I thought the numbers matched right.
 
Sawdustguy said:
This is my second thread designed to help those who may be building a new brewery. I was asked some of these questions recently and decided it would be handy information to have documented on the forum. Again, before I get flamed, I am not insinuating anyone reading this forum or post is a dummy.

The system below utilizes a Honeywell Y8610U intermittent pilot propane or natural gas valve kit (Intermittent Pilot Retrofit Kit). I feel this method may be a touch safer than the Brutus 10 method because there is no concearn over your pilot blowing out.

The Y8610U includes the following features:

• Y8610U kits can be used with either natural or LP gas.

• Y8610U provides a 90 second maximum ignition trial, shuts off, waits six minutes nominal, then reinitiates the pilot ignition sequence. The ignition trial, shutoff, and wait cycle repeat until the pilot lights or the call for heat ends.

• Y8610U kits can be used with either natural or LP gas; it provides timed trial for ignition and 100 percent pilot shutoff on loss of flame.

Each Y8610U kit includes:

— S8610U Intermittent Pilot Module.
— VR8304M Dual Valve Combination Gas Control.
— 392431 Igniter-Sensor* (Not used for this Application you will need to purchase a Q345A1313. See Below).
— 394800-30 Ignition Cable.
— 393691 Natural to LP Gas Conversion Kit.
— Wiring Harness.
— 393690-14 Straight Flange Kit (3/4 in.) .
— Reducer adapters for gas control.
— Adhesive mounting option for S8610.
— Installation hardware.

You will also need a Pilot Burner and Orifice.

— Q345A1313 Pilot Burner/Sensor Assembly.
— 390868-1 0.010" Orifice for Q345A1313.


The diagram below describes a low pressure propane system designed to control the temperature of a HLT. It can be used to control the temperature of any of the three vessels in your brewery. IMPORTANT: This system is designed for low pressure propane or Natural Gas. If using Propane, please make sure your propane regulator is set for 11 WC or less than 0.5 lbs pressure. Please make sure you read and understand the instructions accompanying the Y8610U kit from Honeywell before proceding. The information presented in this post can be found in that document also.

The Y8610U can be purchased from Patriot Supply. Their Ebay Store is (Patriot Supply Ebay Store).

The SYL4352 and Thermocouple can be purchased from Auber Instruments. Their URL is (Auber Instruments Website).

Gas_Control.jpg
Click to expand...

Ok so after being on the phone with Auber for awhile I'm returning my SLY-4352 as listed above, the 4352 is for use with SSR control and will not work as configured above, According to auber I needed the SLY-4342 for relay. The 4352 works great when you are using a SSR for something like controlling a RIMS tube...

One of you smarter guys can probably prove me wrong on this I just thought I would put it out there so some guys aren't in the same boat as I am with this.
 
Got the new PID as soon as I wired in the SLY-4342 everthing worked perfect. Thanks for all the help everyone!
 
Reviving an old thread, where are you guys getting your 24VAC power supplies? I ordered one only to find out the seller listed it incorrectly and was actually DC, now I'm having a hell of a time on ebay trying to find either a new power supply or something to convert the DC back to AC
 
Don't worry about converting DC back to AC. That's a lost cause. What you want is a 120V/24V transformer, not a power supply. How many valves are you trying to power with the transformer? That will dictate how large of a transformer you need.
 
Transformers are sized in VA (volt amps).

Most of the Honeywell valves draw 0.5A. So, two valves would draw 1A. 1A x 24V = 24VA. However, you will want a transformer a bit larger than 24 VA to cover inrush currents when the valves turn on.

A transformer like this should cover you, but I recommend you confirm the amp draw on your valves.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Rheem-46-25107-02-40VA-Transformer-120V-24V
 
Yavid said:
Can someone please confirm that the SLY-4342 PID is the correct one for this application and NOT the SLY-4252? I ordered two SLY-2252 (same as the 4252, just smaller) and now I'm worried they're the wrong ones. Want to make sure before I try wiring anything.
Click to expand...

I don't see either the 2252 or the 4252 listed on Auberins' website or anywhere in a google search. I am a chemical engineer who works with CEMS equipment and I have a lot of experience with PIDs and control signaling. Are you sure that's the model number you bought because I am unable to find any reference to help you. Either PM me with a manual or a link to the manual and I could help. If not, check the model number again and make sure to list the correct one that you purchased.

Thanks
 
Yavid said:
Can someone please confirm that the SYL4352 PID is the correct one for this application and NOT the SYL4342? I ordered two SYL2352 (same as the 4352, just smaller) and now I'm worried they're the wrong ones. Want to make sure before I try wiring anything.

This is the one I ordered: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3
Click to expand...

You want the 2342 for relay output and not SSR output. The relay output is basically turning on or off the high voltage circuit to the pilot burner. The SSR output will not do that as it is energizing or deenergizing a low voltage DC current to control a higher current. You could do that and use the SSR to control the high voltage to the pilot burner, but why add extra complexity and parts that can fail. See if you can return and swap for the 2342.
 
Thanks. That's what I thought but wanted to make sure before I return anything.

Can someone get in touch with Sawdustguy so he can edit the original post? I'm sure I'm not the first (and prob not the last) person to order the wrong PID because of the mistake.
 
What is everyone using to connect the gas valves to their burners? The gas valves I am using have 3/4" FNPT threads. The NG orifices on my burners have 3/8" male flares. I was thinking I'd use a 3/4"-3/8" reducing bushing like this:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#44605K263

Then use a 3/8" MNPT to 3/8" flare fitting. Then I'd just need to find a gas line with 3/8" flares on both ends. Just not sure how common something like that is. Looked a little online and haven't found much yet.
 
This might be a dumb question but:

First some info:
I've built a brewstand using the design/ideas in this thread. I have (3) honeywell valves & orifices for the Kettle, MLT & HLT. The MLT & HLT have Auber 2342 PID's for temp control. The kettle is simple ON-OFF with a switch. The burners I'm using are Banjo/Hurricane burners that have been converted to NG with a hurricane natural gas conversion orifice/valve.


Now the question:
The valves I'm using are rated for much higher BTU than the burners. Is there any worry about supplying too much gas or is the volume going to be restricted by the NG orifice? Do I need to use a monometer to check the gas pressure coming out of the valves? If so what should the pressure be? Williams Brewing lists 11" W.C.; is that correct?

Reason for asking is that these things burn a hell of a lot hotter than they ever did when I was still running propane and it seems like they're burning a lot of fuel. I'm also unable to get a perfect blue flame, there's always a bit of orange here and there. Makes me wonder if there's more gas coming through the orifice than the burner can handle.

Probably over thinking this. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
The NG orifice is doing it's job correctly, if too much gas all of the flames will be white-yellow or blue with yellow tips, all flames would be the same, not random flames with color.
The occasional orange flame is likely the oil based paint used on the burner burning off or other contaminants blowing though the inside of the burner, not over fuel. Not to worry the paint oils or contaminants will soon burn off / run out and you will get all blue flames.
To adjust the flame level you can adjust the internal regulator in the honeywell valve to limit maximum flame, unscrew the cover and back off the spring to lower the flame, then put the cover back on.
 
Also, something I didn't see posted in your question. Do you have the proper spring in your gas valves or are you still setup for propane.
 
Also, 11" wc is too high an input pressure for NG 11-14" is for propane. With NG you should be around 7" on the input side and about 3.5" on the output with a standard NG valve.
 
The valves are setup for NG, they've never been used for propane. The 11" WC pressure is listed on the Williams Brewing website; I haven't been able to find a pressure anywhere else. Thought it seemed high as I'm pretty sure my NG supply lists supply pressure as 7" WC (I'd have to check that, I could be wrong). I think I'm going to hook a manometer up to the valves just to see what the output pressure is.
 

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