Bottle Carbing Idea (Final Data Review)
- Thread starter RukusDM
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RukusDM
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Many people use the current methods outlined by Pappers in the Pasteurization thread without problems. This isn't to replace Pappers method. We are attempting to use that method with a additional level of safety along with being reproducible every time. Some people I've chatted with haven't had a issue.
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RukusDM
Well-Known Member
I'm waiting for a week or two before I can begin any other tests. I don't have anything to bottle carb or pasteurize at this time.
I have 5 Gallons of plain cider with 1.054 SG and 1 lb of light DME. Also 3.5 gallons of Cider with 2 lbs of Honey SG 1.060 (cyser ?). Also 5 Liters of plain cider at SG 1.050.
Shortly I should be able to start several tests with a large range of ciders.
Pimento is probably in a better position to start another series of tests. He has a batch or two going ahead of me.
Hopefully we will gather some more good data.
I have 5 Gallons of plain cider with 1.054 SG and 1 lb of light DME. Also 3.5 gallons of Cider with 2 lbs of Honey SG 1.060 (cyser ?). Also 5 Liters of plain cider at SG 1.050.
Shortly I should be able to start several tests with a large range of ciders.
Pimento is probably in a better position to start another series of tests. He has a batch or two going ahead of me.
Hopefully we will gather some more good data.
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RukusDM
Well-Known Member
Fletch, I'm not ready to bottle yet, however I did a test attempting to cause the worst case situation. I did cold crash this before the test.
It had gone past the 1.020 that you had (work issues kept me away), but I back sweetened it to 1.020 and put it in the test bottle. I ended up with about 25 psi in 30 hours. I then let the pressure off, and re-installed the gauge and it pressured up to about 30 psi in 16 hours or so. I then released the pressure again and repeated. Same results.
This of course is a worst case causing a fairly strong ferment in the bottle. I want to repeat this by back sweetening and get it fermenting again and then cold crash once the ferment starts up again and see what data that provides.
This is the best I can do with this batch. This would still support using a pressure bottle to solve the issue.
I'll post back when I repeat the experiment and also when I bottle my cysers.
Edit: Another thing I just noticed watching this test was that the liquid level was lower than when I started the Carbonation. You can see that from one of my posts in the original post. I guess that means that the bottle volume expanded while heating for Pasteurization. Total volume of the bottle is now bigger....more head space so the carb level is lower than what would have been in a glass bottle.[/QUOTE]
Great discussion guys, thanks for all your work.
I was doing a little research on the internet on the pressure characteristics of plastic bottles, and if this would be a useable container for cider, especially if I were to pasteurize the bottles using the technique RukusDM is using in this post (that's the only source of bottles I have right now, but hope to get glass bottles in the future).
Some of the information I found seems to indicate that they can handle the pressures that you have mentioned in this post. Some say the pressure of a 2 litter pop bottle will handle around a max pressure of 60-70psi., While others indicate they quite regularly fill them up to 120psi. (I don't know the accuracy of this info though).
Another concern that I saw was that under pressure, plastic bottles will stretch, increasing their volume. If true, I would think that a person wouldn't want to use plastic bottles over and over, as this would greatly affect the bottles ability to withstand pressures. Someone else mentioned that the kind of plastic used in pop bottles does allow oxygen absorption through the plastic. This may be another concern, if true, for long term storage of cider in plastic bottles. I will try to do further research to verify this info.
This may be information that is widely known, I don't know as I am new to this hobby/obsession.
If someone out there knows more on this, I would love to here what they know.
I am currently just about ready to bottle my first batch of cider. I think I will go ahead and let this batch go almost dry, then back sweeten for the amount of carbonation I want, then bottle. The next batch I will shoot for something in line with what RukusDM is looking for in this thread.
Thanks Guys!
Great discussion guys, thanks for all your work.
I was doing a little research on the internet on the pressure characteristics of plastic bottles, and if this would be a useable container for cider, especially if I were to pasteurize the bottles using the technique RukusDM is using in this post (that's the only source of bottles I have right now, but hope to get glass bottles in the future).
Some of the information I found seems to indicate that they can handle the pressures that you have mentioned in this post. Some say the pressure of a 2 litter pop bottle will handle around a max pressure of 60-70psi., While others indicate they quite regularly fill them up to 120psi. (I don't know the accuracy of this info though).
Another concern that I saw was that under pressure, plastic bottles will stretch, increasing their volume. If true, I would think that a person wouldn't want to use plastic bottles over and over, as this would greatly affect the bottles ability to withstand pressures. Someone else mentioned that the kind of plastic used in pop bottles does allow oxygen absorption through the plastic. This may be another concern, if true, for long term storage of cider in plastic bottles. I will try to do further research to verify this info.
This may be information that is widely known, I don't know as I am new to this hobby/obsession.
If someone out there knows more on this, I would love to here what they know.I am currently just about ready to bottle my first batch of cider. I think I will go ahead and let this batch go almost dry, then back sweeten for the amount of carbonation I want, then bottle. The next batch I will shoot for something in line with what RukusDM is looking for in this thread.
Thanks Guys!
OP
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RukusDM
Well-Known Member
Great discussion guys, thanks for all your work.
I was doing a little research on the internet on the pressure characteristics of plastic bottles, and if this would be a useable container for cider, especially if I were to pasteurize the bottles using the technique RukusDM is using in this post (that's the only source of bottles I have right now, but hope to get glass bottles in the future).
Some of the information I found seems to indicate that they can handle the pressures that you have mentioned in this post. Some say the pressure of a 2 litter pop bottle will handle around a max pressure of 60-70psi., While others indicate they quite regularly fill them up to 120psi. (I don't know the accuracy of this info though).
Another concern that I saw was that under pressure, plastic bottles will stretch, increasing their volume. If true, I would think that a person wouldn't want to use plastic bottles over and over, as this would greatly affect the bottles ability to withstand pressures. Someone else mentioned that the kind of plastic used in pop bottles does allow oxygen absorption through the plastic. This may be another concern, if true, for long term storage of cider in plastic bottles. I will try to do further research to verify this info.
This may be information that is widely known, I don't know as I am new to this hobby/obsession.
I am currently just about ready to bottle my first batch of cider. I think I will go ahead and let this batch go almost dry, then back sweeten for the amount of carbonation I want, then bottle. The next batch I will shoot for something in line with what RukusDM is looking for in this thread.
Thanks Guys!
The bottles definatly do distort in shape slightly. The volume dropped about a half oz or so when the pasteurization was done. That would be at the max pressure and high temp which makes sense that it might stretch in shape.
At that point you are really already done with the test bottle as the yeast are dead. The gauge and cap can be re-used (as I've used it several times now) you just get a new pop bottle for your next batch. I'll be bottling my batches in glass, however 1 plastic test gauge bottle for the batch.
I have several test batches done. I will be doing a graf and a cyser in the next few days. I haven't built my other gauge bottles yet. That will make 3 for me total.
I'll never bottle without one. In fact I'm using one just to see what the pressures do with normal priming in my Lager Beer I've just bottled. The pressure is climbing and is up to about 10 psi. We'll see where it ends up using the normal bottle carbing proceedure.
pimento
Well-Known Member
On friday I bottled my latest cider, it's just a simple 6 gallons of fresh cider, 2 lbs of turbinado sugar and a pack of ec-1118, backsweetened with 6 cans of AJ concentrate.
I don't have all the data yet, but I can see this is going to be a short test because of the ec-1118.
I bottled friday and the pressure had settled at 5psi within a few hours, which seems to be the norm.
24 hrs later, the pressure was already up to 11 psi and 12 hrs after that it's at 14, so it seems to be gaining about 6 psi a day.
At this rate I'll be pasteurizing late monday or early tuesday, I'll post my final results after it's all done.
I don't have all the data yet, but I can see this is going to be a short test because of the ec-1118.
I bottled friday and the pressure had settled at 5psi within a few hours, which seems to be the norm.
24 hrs later, the pressure was already up to 11 psi and 12 hrs after that it's at 14, so it seems to be gaining about 6 psi a day.
At this rate I'll be pasteurizing late monday or early tuesday, I'll post my final results after it's all done.
Sorry to necro here, but this is a really great thread and a wonderful source of information to all those thinking of pasteurising, priming or force carbing their home brew. I think a link should be provided in the OP of Pappers thread.
As I was pasteurizing my first bottle today it occurred to me what might be a good way to do batches safely and with excellent temperature results. Could you not place all your bottles in an insulated chest cooler and add the hot water to that? I would think there would be several advantages:
- You could process quite a few bottles at once, certainly more than would fit in most pots
- Heat retention would be much better than in a pot, leading to higher average temps and shorter overall soak times
- With the lid closed you would have excellent containment if a bottle should burst
I've developed two recipes, one quite sweet and one exceptionally dry. My goal is to combine those flavors in one bottle, as well as letting the residual yeast remove some sweetness while carbing. I can also skip back-sweetening with this method.
Any thoughts?
- You could process quite a few bottles at once, certainly more than would fit in most pots
- Heat retention would be much better than in a pot, leading to higher average temps and shorter overall soak times
- With the lid closed you would have excellent containment if a bottle should burst
I've developed two recipes, one quite sweet and one exceptionally dry. My goal is to combine those flavors in one bottle, as well as letting the residual yeast remove some sweetness while carbing. I can also skip back-sweetening with this method.
Any thoughts?
That would definitely work, it's similar to how I do it. I don't have like the idea of having to control the temperature on the stove (I have quite an old stove with dialings 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - 5 being the hottest setting so I have no idea how hot each can get to). I boil water in my jug and add it to a pot with 4 - 6 bottles then cover it with a towel to keep the steam in. Seems a bit primitive but it works fine, I let them sit for 10 - 15 minutes max and add some fresh boiling water at about 5 minutes. It works so well that I don't bother checking the temperature anymore, which is a bit foolish on my behalf.
smyrnaquince
Well-Known Member
Remember that your goal is to get the cider inside the bottles up to pasteurization temperature (e.g., 180 F) and keep it there for some length of time (20 minutes?).
I think the hard part will be figuring out how hot to make the water you add to the cooler to allow for how much it will cool down due to the cooler bottles. (Wow, I used "cool" a lot!)
What I mean is, if you want to hold the cider in the bottles at 180 F and the bottles start at room temperature (say 70F), you may need to add a few gallons of boiling hot water (212 F) to have the whole system come to rest at 180 (i.e., the cider temperature inside the bottles at 180). Will the bottles survive this kind of shock? I think you'd be better off putting the bottles in a stockpot with water and bringing the whole thing up to your desired temperature. If, at that point, you want to dump it all in a cooler, fine, but why bother?
I think the hard part will be figuring out how hot to make the water you add to the cooler to allow for how much it will cool down due to the cooler bottles. (Wow, I used "cool" a lot!)
What I mean is, if you want to hold the cider in the bottles at 180 F and the bottles start at room temperature (say 70F), you may need to add a few gallons of boiling hot water (212 F) to have the whole system come to rest at 180 (i.e., the cider temperature inside the bottles at 180). Will the bottles survive this kind of shock? I think you'd be better off putting the bottles in a stockpot with water and bringing the whole thing up to your desired temperature. If, at that point, you want to dump it all in a cooler, fine, but why bother?
