What is the reason everyone says that making a starter for dry yeast is counterproductive? I've read more than a few times that pitching dry yeast in a starter will kill a certain percentage of the yeast right off the bat hence the notion that you would essentially be playing catch up...But isnt that the reason that we re-hydrate dry yeast before pitching into wort? to ease the initial shock? if so, why couldnt we re-hydrate in sterilized water then pitch into a starter to grow more new clean yeast to save for future use??
making a starter with dry yeast questions
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I can't give you yeast count numbers or explain with certainty how dry yeast reacts to it, but I can say that it has worked with no noticeable problems for me.
On several occasions I have rehydrated dry yeast then dumped that slurry into a large starter to grow the yeast. I've done it with W-34/70 and US-05. The lagers came out clean, no noticeable off flavors, and in ales, I get the same flavor profile as if I had only rehydrated the yeast and then pitched it into my wort.
Dry yeast is suppose to have a much larger yeast count when compared to liquid yeast, so I'm not sure how much yeast is actually multiplying this way, but like I said, it has worked for me.
On several occasions I have rehydrated dry yeast then dumped that slurry into a large starter to grow the yeast. I've done it with W-34/70 and US-05. The lagers came out clean, no noticeable off flavors, and in ales, I get the same flavor profile as if I had only rehydrated the yeast and then pitched it into my wort.
Dry yeast is suppose to have a much larger yeast count when compared to liquid yeast, so I'm not sure how much yeast is actually multiplying this way, but like I said, it has worked for me.
wyoast said:
Because dry yeast is cheap. You would spend more money making the starter than just buying 2 packs of dry yeast.
I guess..1lb DME-$9 enough to make 4 or 5 starters..2 pks dry yeast-$11. The closest hbs to me is about an hour and a half away so it would definitely be cheaper on me if I could just keep a few good strains going at home.
Varmintman
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One of the vendors on the site did a yeast study that was very informative. After racking the beer off the yeast cake he put the slurry in pint jars and re pitched using those. He counted the yeast in the slurry and found enough yeast to pitch a normal gravity batch in each pint jar that he got.
I have started doing this and have to say it is a great way to save time and money. I get 4 pints of slurry from the first batch and use it for 4 generations or 16 batches total after the initial pitch. The best part though is walking to the fridge and grabbing the yeast and dumping it into the wort. No starter no re hydrating just shake and dump.
I have started doing this and have to say it is a great way to save time and money. I get 4 pints of slurry from the first batch and use it for 4 generations or 16 batches total after the initial pitch. The best part though is walking to the fridge and grabbing the yeast and dumping it into the wort. No starter no re hydrating just shake and dump.
Funny you mentioned that..I just did the same thing myself for the first time the other day after reading "yeast washing illustrated" on here. I now have 4 pint jars of rinsed Bry-97 ready to go. But I've also read posts about picking up different flavors from "hopped yeast" I guess I'll find out for myself when I experiment with it a bit. I was just not understanding the reasoning behind folks saying that pitching dry yeast into a starter would kill some of the yeast. Especially if you were to re-hydrate first. Just didn't make sense to me.
Varmintman
Well-Known Member
For me it works simply because I only brew 2 styles of beer and keep those separated in the fridge. I don't even wash the yeast just use the slurry as it is.
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Hello, your kinda asking 2 different questions, you don't want to just pitch dry yeast into a starter right off the bat, but rehydrating the yeast first in water then pitching is the more proper way to use dry yeast.
Pitching dry yeast directly into a starter or wort will shock the yeast cells walls, when they are becoming active in liquid, the wort can travel thru the cell walls in both directions, and this can damage the walls, according to what I have read.
When pitching dry yeast into water, the water can travel threw the cells walls in both directions without damaging the cells walls, this is the reason for making a yeast slurry with water first, then pitch or make a starter.
Hope this helps, I way simplified what I read, but that is what I got out of, what I read.
Cheers
Jamil says that pitching into wort, either the full batch of beer or even starter wort will kill roughly half the yeast. So, if you wanted to make a starter, rehydrate your yeast first.
The second point is, why make a starter with dry yeast?
When propagating yeast for pitching, the general rule of thumb is to increase the volume of yeast-to-wort by a multiple of 5-10x the current volume. There is enough yeast cells to ferment a normal gravity beer from one pack of yeast. Another rule of thumb is for every 30 pints of gravity you use another pack of yeast... So, 1.030 use one pack, 1.031-1.060 use 2 packs, etc. Making a starter with a pack of yeast does not really increase cell counts, and actually from reading the Yeast book, it can weaken the yeast cells due to depleted reserves. Your pitching a pack of yeast into a starter is like making a starter for a jar of yeast slurry. It's just not necessary. Your best bet is to make a small batch of beer, like 2-3 gallons of 1.040-50 OG, then use the slurry of that batch for about 10 gallons of beer, or split the slurry into 2 for 2 separate batches. I culture yeast from slants and this is what I do.
When people use Wyeasy Activator packs and make starters, it doesn't do much for cell counts (unless they are using a stir plate), but rather wakes the yeast up and gets them prepared to ferment. Propagator packs have significantly smaller amounts of yeast in them, and those are meant to be used in a starter. I believe it's the same rule of thumb with the White labs vials as with the dry yeast... For every 30 pts gravity you add another vital. But you can, and should make a starter with those.
As to using pint jars of slurry, I would never just take them out of the fridge and pitch them... You should take them out at the beginning of brew day so they come up to temperature. You want to pitch your yeast at as close to the wort temp as you can get so you don't shock your yeast.
The second point is, why make a starter with dry yeast?
When propagating yeast for pitching, the general rule of thumb is to increase the volume of yeast-to-wort by a multiple of 5-10x the current volume. There is enough yeast cells to ferment a normal gravity beer from one pack of yeast. Another rule of thumb is for every 30 pints of gravity you use another pack of yeast... So, 1.030 use one pack, 1.031-1.060 use 2 packs, etc. Making a starter with a pack of yeast does not really increase cell counts, and actually from reading the Yeast book, it can weaken the yeast cells due to depleted reserves. Your pitching a pack of yeast into a starter is like making a starter for a jar of yeast slurry. It's just not necessary. Your best bet is to make a small batch of beer, like 2-3 gallons of 1.040-50 OG, then use the slurry of that batch for about 10 gallons of beer, or split the slurry into 2 for 2 separate batches. I culture yeast from slants and this is what I do.
When people use Wyeasy Activator packs and make starters, it doesn't do much for cell counts (unless they are using a stir plate), but rather wakes the yeast up and gets them prepared to ferment. Propagator packs have significantly smaller amounts of yeast in them, and those are meant to be used in a starter. I believe it's the same rule of thumb with the White labs vials as with the dry yeast... For every 30 pts gravity you add another vital. But you can, and should make a starter with those.
As to using pint jars of slurry, I would never just take them out of the fridge and pitch them... You should take them out at the beginning of brew day so they come up to temperature. You want to pitch your yeast at as close to the wort temp as you can get so you don't shock your yeast.
Good info guys, thanks. As I understand it, 1-11 gram pack of dry yeast yields roughly 100-150 billion viable cells. What you were saying about pitching the whole package into a starter would be overkill.. that's what I was thinking too. Too many cells in too small of volume -no need for them to multiply- What I was planning was to split the pack in half or maybe even 3rds and making a low gravity starter ( say 1.020 ) for the sole purpose of propagating and multiplying the yeast..anyone ever experiment with this? I'm sure it will be a trial and error kinda deal to get the gravity and amounts dialed in so as the yeast won't get stressed to the point of producing undesired byproducts.
Howdy neighbor.
The reason that you don't make a starter by sprinkling dry yeast into starter wort has to do with the nature of dry yeast cells. Dry yeast begins its life as liquid yeast. It is fed and oxygenated in a large vessel, allowed to settle and then dehydrated. The dehydration messes up their cell wall membranes. Those membranes regulate what goes in and out of the yeast cell and protect it.
Wort isn't exactly a friendly environment for those dehydrated cells at first. The pH is low (about 5.2 vs 7-ish for water) and there are lots of substances in solution. The dry yeast have to rebuild their cell wall membranes in order to survive and multiply. Sprinkling dry yeast straight into wort (even weak starter wort) can, according to yeast biologist Dr. Clayton Cone, kill up to 60% of the cells before they can successfully rebuild their cell membranes.
The most friendly liquid in which to put those weakened dry yeast cells is tap water that has been boiled and then cooled to 95-105*F. When you add the dry yeast to the tap water, you don't stir it in, but leave it alone for 15min so the cells can get their stuff together. After that, give 'em a stir, wait 5 more minutes and then adjust the temp of the slurry by adding small amounts of wort (which should be cooler) and waiting a few minutes between each wort addition. It normally takes 3-4 times of doing that to get within 10*F of the wort so you can pitch w/o shocking the yeast.
So, if you really wish to make a starter with dry yeast, simply rehydrate it first.
Another reason you don't want to do this is because dry yeast is not a pure culture. Any contaminating bacteria out wild yeast you have in there will also propagate in your starters. The two best ways to save on yeast costs are to 1, collect your yeast slurry and repitch it into another batch, or 2, develop a yeast bank with liquid yeast (which is a pure strain). For details on the first option search the site for yeast washing... I think there's a sticky thread. For the second option search the site for slanting yeast. I personally do the second option for my first full batch and the second after that if I'm brewing within a couple weeks. This method works great for me. If I were you though I'd start with option one because it is easier and requires less equipment. If you're brewing within two weeks, you don't even need to collect the cake, just rack off the finished beer, remove about half of the yeast and then pitch your cooled wort onto the cake that's left. You can plan out your brew calendar do you can brew every 2 weeks and you can make 4-5 batches of beer from those first 2 packs of dried yeast. The only thing is to keep your sanitation practices good, use yeast nutrients in every batch (you want those boys and girls to be happy and healthy!), and plan your batches out from lowest starting gravity to highest starting gravity. I personally won't use a yeast cake from a beer over 6% abv, the alcohol stresses the yeast cells and can cause them to not fully ferment the next batch or to mutate and throw off off-flavors.
Cheers and good luck!
I've thought about asking that question about wild yeast propagation..I've read and heard ALOT that wild yeasts ect... get into our beers throughout the brewing process no matter how solid our sanitation practices are but as long as we have enough healthy yeast pitched the wanted yeast will overpower the unwanted yeast and essentially "choke them out" So are you saying that this effect does not take place unless it is a pure culture? Please don't think that I'm challenging your answers to be a smarta$$..I assure you that's not my intent.. I just don't know that much about yeasts yet and am trying to learn and the input I'm getting from you guys with more experience is awesome! Thanks
That's how you learn here is to read up and ask questions when you've got them.
+1 on learning to harvest yeast and store it for future use as well as sometimes using a portion (the size of which varies from 25-100%) of fresh yeast slurry from a batch you just racked off the cake. Doing starters with liquid yeast (new or harvested) is another very valuable tool (stir plate recommended, but not needed).
I've never heard anywhere that dry yeast is any less of a "pure culture" than liquid yeast. They are cultured in the same way, but harvested differently. For example, WLP001 and US-05 are pretty darn near identical (Chico strain) except that one is sold in vials as a liquid while the other is sold dry. US-05, pitched in the correct amount, will serve to overwhelm foreign organisms that are present to the same extent that WLP001 will. Whether they can or not depends on the nature and number of the bad bugs.
Dry yeast originates as a pure culture, but during the process of drying the yeast some contaminates do infect the yeast. This is a known problem with dry yeast, but generally the vast number of yeast cells overpower any perceivable flavor contributions. This is why when culturing yeast is always done with liquid yeast. The problem with splitting a pack of yeast up and making multiple starters is that you would also be propagating all the bacteria that may have affected the dry package. Bacteria multiply much faster than yeast do. This still may not be significant enough to be tasted in your final product, but will become more and more of a problem as you continue to reuse that yeast. Plus, I always strive to make the best possible beer I can every time I brew. I've taken shortcuts in the past to try and save money, and have had to throw batches out because of it. To me, it's just not worth the cost of my time and money to save a few dollars on a batch just to have to throw it all out. Follow established methods to extend the life of your yeast and you'll make good beer and save money. Remember, yeast have the most effect on the flavor of your beer than any other ingredient.
el_caro
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Depends what the ingredients are I reckon.
