Question about hop bitterness.

I have a hop question that i hope the community can help me understand.

Take Cascade hops for example. Whats the difference between boiling one for 60min and another one being thrown in at the last 10 minutes of the boil?

And if your throwing in the hops at the last 10 minutes, how long would the LME or DME be boiled for, before you put the hops in?

adding hops in the last 10 minutes preserves their aroma and flavor. during an hour long boil all the aroma and flavor gets boiled off and your left with the bitter. as far as how long before to add the DME or LME i would say 0 minutes. i do LEA all the time and just take the pot off the heat, add the extract, put it back on the head, bring it up to a boil and add the hops right away and start timing.

brewd00d said:

I have a hop question that i hope the community can help me understand.

Take Cascade hops for example. Whats the difference between boiling one for 60min and another one being thrown in at the last 10 minutes of the boil?

And if your throwing in the hops at the last 10 minutes, how long would the LME or DME be boiled for, before you put the hops in?

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Another thing is that hops, in order to impart bitterness, need to boil longer to break down the acids so they become soluable (sp?). The less they boil, the less bitterness is imparted. Think of it this way:

60 minutes = No aroma, All bitterness
30 minutes = Some bitterness, some aroma
10 minutes = No bitterness, All aroma

Granted, the above data is not scientific and more for visual interpretation.

WrongCoastBrewery said:

Another thing is that hops, in order to impart bitterness, need to boil longer to break down the acids so they become soluable (sp?). The less they boil, the less bitterness is imparted. Think of it this way:

60 minutes = No aroma, All bitterness
30 minutes = Some bitterness, some aroma
10 minutes = No bitterness, All aroma

Granted, the above data is not scientific and more for visual interpretation.

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So if i were to be doing an extra light beer an I wanted just enough hops bitterness to balance the sweetness if the malt, would boiling for ten minutes/the last ten minutes achieve what I want?

For example i don't want any hop bitterness but the slight aroma of the hops in the beer I should boil for for ten min then that should be that

yes, you could do that or you could "dry hop" and put the hops into your fermenter to get the aroma or citrus notes. The longer you boil the less aroma and more bitterness.

Hop utilization will increase with boil time up to about 120 minutes. Also, flavor and aroma will be altered and reduced with boiling time. Even 60 minute additions will usually impart some flavor although it is quite different form later additions.

Hop Utilization:
120 mins: 40%
60 mins: 35%
30 mins: 22%
20 mins: 15%
10 mins: 10%

As you see even very late additions contribute significant bitterness. Most brewers will also tell you that even flameout additions will cause bittering to some extent.

For your extra light beer example: How much hop character you are looking for? If you want a bud light clone then add very little hops at the start of the boil and none after. If you want hore hop character use the same IBUs but with 1/2 or more of the bitterness coming from late additions.

Example:

0.75 oz. of 5.5% AA hops @ 60 mins
= 16 IBUs

or

0.25 oz. of 5.5% AA hops @ 60 mins
0.50 oz. of 5.5% AA hops @ 30 mins
0.50 oz. of 5.5% AA hops @ 5 mins
= 16 IBUs

brewd00d said:

So if i were to be doing an extra light beer an I wanted just enough hops bitterness to balance the sweetness if the malt, would boiling for ten minutes/the last ten minutes achieve what I want?

For example i don't want any hop bitterness but the slight aroma of the hops in the beer I should boil for for ten min then that should be that

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I think I would go with two additions really. The first one I would do 45 minutes. Use a low AAU hop like Saaz (3.5-4.5 AAU). Then I would do another addition toward the end of say 0.5oz at 15 minutes. Hops are a vital part of any beer because they balance out the maltiness. Doing this hop addition schedule with a 3 gallon boil would get you about 9 IBUs. This is at the lower end of the IBU scale for the style. Also, 9 IBU's is really nothing compared to all other beers out there. Nice thing is after brewing it and before carbonation, you taste it and want more aroma, you could dry hop it with whatever hop you used for 4-7 days and get a nice aroma. Personally, I would go for about 5 days of dry hopping, if I even did it.

Also, if you want even less IBUs drop 5 minutes off the second addition. That would give you 8 IBUs.

brewd00d said:

So if i were to be doing an extra light beer an I wanted just enough hops bitterness to balance the sweetness if the malt, would boiling for ten minutes/the last ten minutes achieve what I want?

For example i don't want any hop bitterness but the slight aroma of the hops in the beer I should boil for for ten min then that should be that

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Well, you DO want hop bitterness. You don't want a bitter beer, but without the bittering hops, the beer would be cloyingly sweet. You can add just enough bittering hops to balance the sweet malt, and not have a bitter (nor cloyingly sweet) beer.

For light beers, usually bittering hops to 15 IBUs or so is all that's needed, added at 60 minutes. Then, if you want a slight aroma of hops in the beer, 1/2 ounce of saaz or hallertauer hops at 10 minutes gives you the flavor/aroma of slight hops.

Yooper said:

Well, you DO want hop bitterness. You don't want a bitter beer, but without the bittering hops, the beer would be cloyingly sweet. You can add just enough bittering hops to balance the sweet malt, and not have a bitter (nor cloyingly sweet) beer.

For light beers, usually bittering hops to 15 IBUs or so is all that's needed, added at 60 minutes. Then, if you want a slight aroma of hops in the beer, 1/2 ounce of saaz or hallertauer hops at 10 minutes gives you the flavor/aroma of slight hops.

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Everyone is chiming in, love it. I am doing an American light lager clone that represents any of the three main lights - coors, bud or miller. Obviously i dont know exactly which one i can do since their ingredients are not public knowledge.

I already have 1oz of Cascade so thats what im working with. I dont want any bitterness at all, just enough to balance out the sweetness of the malt. When i threw my stuff into the beer calc site (beercalculus.hopville.com) the IBU is at 9.7 for a 0.5 oz of cascade hops boiling for 60 min. But somehow that doesn't seem right, even with my other given ingredients. Even though the IBU's would be at 9.7 which is a good number close to what the other light beers are i still think that would be too bitter, and now reading everyone's previous post, i was thinking boiling the half oz to 30min.

I wouldnt want any aroma either, however, looking back im not sure if my nose was attuned to sense if those american adjunct lagers (miller, coors, bud) had any aroma to them. If im wrong pelase let me know so i can figure out the proper hop time.

Thanks for all the help so far guys. Im learning something for every post i see.


(I have another thread started about this batch of beer im making this can be found here --> https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/trying-out-recipe-light-beer-have-few-questions-212514/

brewd00d said:

Even though the IBU's would be at 9.7 which is a good number close to what the other light beers are i still think that would be too bitter, and now reading everyone's previous post, i was thinking boiling the half oz to 30min.

I wouldnt want any aroma either, however, looking back im not sure if my nose was attuned to sense if those american adjunct lagers (miller, coors, bud) had any aroma to them. If im wrong pelase let me know so i can figure out the proper hop time.

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9.7 IBUs is nothing, I wouldn't go lower than that. assumming your OG is 1.040+, thats going to be pretty malty/sweet as is.

BMC has no hop aroma to them

dcp27 said:

9.7 IBUs is nothing, I wouldn't go lower than that. assumming your OG is 1.040+, thats going to be pretty malty/sweet as is.

BMC has no hop aroma to them

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I guess now my question is how accurate are those brew calcs?

That 9.7 was for 60min for 0.5 oz of cascade. OG is targeted at 1.038

If i boil 1oz of cascade for 60min, my IBU's go to 18.5.

0.75 oz would be 13.8

brewd00d said:

I guess now my question is how accurate are those brew calcs?

That 9.7 was for 60min for 0.5 oz of cascade. OG is targeted at 1.038

If i boil 1oz of cascade for 60min, my IBU's go to 18.5.

0.75 oz would be 13.8

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I just did a calculation using Beersmith. Using a OG of 1.038 and adding 0.5oz Cascade at 60 min and then at 10 min got me an IBU of 11.8. I really think cascade isnt what you want though. I would highly suggest the Saaz and depending on the AAU of those hops, you would be in the same IBU range. Granted you would need a bit more of the Saaz over the Cascade.

Doing the same calculations with Saaz, except using 0.5oz at 60 min and 1oz at 10 minutes, you would get 11 IBUs.

Saaz is a more delicate clean hop while Cascade will add more of a fruity, almost grapefruit like aroma.

I agree bud/coors/miller no hop aroma, slight bittering to balance. I just looked around the forums, and it doesn't look like this is an easy beer to make, any mistakes seem to be more pronounced due to it being such a light tasting beer.

ill have to play around with it i guess. maybe ill order some saaz.

would u suggest adding additional saaz in for the last 10 minutes or would doing it just for 60min work?

brewd00d said:

I guess now my question is how accurate are those brew calcs?

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hard to say. there's a lot of different variables that go into the calculations and some of the old theories have been recently proven untrue. its more relative then anything.

if you already have the cascade and don't plan on doing any later hops (20mins and under), just stick with it. the flavor from a 60min add is minimal at best and it will contribute no aroma at all. if you do want some hop flavor/aroma, saaz is what BMC uses, but there is no flavor/aroma in those despite claimed 'triple hopping'

I dont plan on adding any later hops. just the cascade for 60min and thats it.