Help me in getting lowest possible final gravity with big beer

I am preparing my massive 1.14 original gravity stout recipe. Last time I brewed this I had and issue hitting a reasonable FG and the beer ended up too sweet, FG was 1.056. I desire to get closer to 1.035-1.030 FG this time.

Assuming my fermentation techniques are already appropriate (large starter of primary yeast then at 11%abv a large pitch of 099, pure oxygen every few hours for the first 12 hours, yeast nutrient, etc.) I am looking for some advice on my recipe and mash temp.

Here is my thought. I usually mash this at 150. I'm thinking of bringing that down to 145 instead for 90 minutes. Single temp mash infusion no mash out. Any reason I shouldn't go down to 140?

Additionally I normally use all maris otter as my base malt (about 27lbs for the 6g batch). Is 2 row more fermentable than MO? If so maybe I could do a 50/50 split? Also I normally cold steep all my dark grains (crystal, roasted malt, special b, etc..)overnight since it doesn't bring out the acidity if I was to mash it. If I did mash those dark grains instead could I pick up more fermentable wort?

I am trying hard to hit 15% ABV with no adjuncts and have a not to sweet profile.

Appreciate any advice. Thank you.

A few things from my perspective...

1) Stouts are dominated by their mash profile, not their ABV. A good stout will consist of a mix of base, caramel, chocolate and roasted barley malts. Not using any adjunct in the mash will nullify the diastatic power of the base malt, and your adjunct unfermentable sugars will be "set".
2) A lower mash temperature will definitely promote fermentability, but it's out of step with the style profile. A higher mash temperature may not benefit fermentation but it will promote mouthfeel and better head retention.
3) A "good" yeast pitch should target at least 1.5M cells / mL - P. That's about a 5L starter of a higher attenuating yeast. Skip the WLP099 and just use something that will bring you over the finish line to begin with. Notty, Wyeast 1084, and WLP090 would be relatively safe bets.

I hope you relish a challenge, because you're gonna need a real cranker of a yeast pitch to bring this one home.

strongarm said:

I am preparing my massive 1.14 original gravity stout recipe. Last time I brewed this I had and issue hitting a reasonable FG and the beer ended up too sweet, FG was 1.056. I desire to get closer to 1.035-1.030 FG this time.

Assuming my fermentation techniques are already appropriate (large starter of primary yeast then at 11%abv a large pitch of 099, pure oxygen every few hours for the first 12 hours, yeast nutrient, etc.) I am looking for some advice on my recipe and mash temp.

Here is my thought. I usually mash this at 150. I'm thinking of bringing that down to 145 instead for 90 minutes. Single temp mash infusion no mash out. Any reason I shouldn't go down to 140?

Additionally I normally use all maris otter as my base malt (about 27lbs for the 6g batch). Is 2 row more fermentable than MO? If so maybe I could do a 50/50 split? Also I normally cold steep all my dark grains (crystal, roasted malt, special b, etc..)overnight since it doesn't bring out the acidity if I was to mash it. If I did mash those dark grains instead could I pick up more fermentable wort?

I am trying hard to hit 15% ABV with no adjuncts and have a not to sweet profile.

Appreciate any advice. Thank you.

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I don't understand the part in red. Are you talking about making a huge starter that would end up with 11% abv? This would give you the opposite effect actually, when talking about yeast health. They will be incredibly stressed out after such a huge fermentation. I find this calculator incredibly useful for stepping up starters:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

As for mash temps, this is a pretty decent article to start with.
http://byo.com/aging/item/1604-what-mash-temperatures-create-a-sweet-or-dry-beer

As far as getting all you can out of your yeast, you want to aerate heavily, you want to probably overpitch, but pitching rates will mean nothing if your yeast aren't already at their optimum viability and vitality. Yeast nutrient is a must.

Another route you could think about taking, if you have the possibility, is to let the yeast have at only like 1/2 the wort. Then once it reaches high krausen, pour in more wort like every 12 hours until you've got it all in. The logic behind this is a little bit mathematical, and might be uninteresting, but here goes:
5 gallons of 1.140 wort gives you 700 total gravity points.
2.5 gallons of 1.140 wort gives you 350 total gravity points. Same amount of yeast, same OG, but less total sugars for them to get started on.

I don't believe MO is any less fermentable than the other base malts.

The enzymes in the base malts will, in fact, chop up some of those sugars from the specialty grains during the mash, especially if you do 90 mins. So I would suggest having them in there. Maybe for at least the last 30 mins?

joshesmusica said:

Another route you could think about taking, if you have the possibility, is to let the yeast have at only like 1/2 the wort. Then once it reaches high krausen, pour in more wort like every 12 hours until you've got it all in. The logic behind this is a little bit mathematical, and might be uninteresting, but here goes:

5 gallons of 1.140 wort gives you 700 total gravity points.

2.5 gallons of 1.140 wort gives you 350 total gravity points. Same amount of yeast, same OG, but less total sugars for them to get started on.

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+1

Totally forgot about this. This is what commercial brewers do for big beers (think Dogfish 120). The real advantage is that you can oxygenate as you re-pitch additional wort into your actively fermenting yeast cake. The longer you keep the yeast in the rapid expansion phase, the more healthy yeast are produced and the more likely full attenuation can be achieved.

You may want to read the following article, it expands on the adding wort over time idea:

http://byo.com/hops/item/51-21-alcohol-all-grain-beer

The author used it to create a 21% ABV beer.

specharka said:

A few things from my perspective...

1) Stouts are dominated by their mash profile, not their ABV. A good stout will consist of a mix of base, caramel, chocolate and roasted barley malts. Not using any adjunct in the mash will nullify the diastatic power of the base malt, and your adjunct unfermentable sugars will be "set".
2) A lower mash temperature will definitely promote fermentability, but it's out of step with the style profile. A higher mash temperature may not benefit fermentation but it will promote mouthfeel and better head retention.
3) A "good" yeast pitch should target at least 1.5M cells / mL - P. That's about a 5L starter of a higher attenuating yeast. Skip the WLP099 and just use something that will bring you over the finish line to begin with. Notty, Wyeast 1084, and WLP090 would be relatively safe bets.

I hope you relish a challenge, because you're gonna need a real cranker of a yeast pitch to bring this one home.

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1) I agree. Mashing the specialties should help the attenuation.

2) I disagree, only because if he can't get the yeast to ferment out all of the fermentables, he'll still be left with tons of body/sweetness and I don't think it will make a big difference on the head retention. That's what oats or wheat should be used for. Yes for a normal-sized stout one would want to mash higher, but that is to affect the overall attenuation of the beer. So a 1.090 wort finishing at 1.020 would have an apparent attenuation of 76%. Use that 76% at 1.140 and OG becomes 1.030, which means there's plenty of "body" leftover. And that's IF he can get 76% out of this one. (Which he will need to get in order to achieve that 15% he's talking about, 14.9 actually).

3) I agree with you on this one, but only if he's wanting a fairly neutral strain to begin with. If he's wanting some character from a low attenuating yeast, I think he might want to stick with his method. If he's just wanting a clean profile, then yeah, just go straight for one that will get the job done in the first place.

joshesmusica said:

2) I disagree, only because if he can't get the yeast to ferment out all of the fermentables, he'll still be left with tons of body/sweetness and I don't think it will make a big difference on the head retention. That's what oats or wheat should be used for. Yes for a normal-sized stout one would want to mash higher, but that is to affect the overall attenuation of the beer. So a 1.090 wort finishing at 1.020 would have an apparent attenuation of 76%. Use that 76% at 1.140 and OG becomes 1.030, which means there's plenty of "body" leftover. And that's IF he can get 76% out of this one. (Which he will need to get in order to achieve that 15% he's talking about, 14.9 actually).

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I was only talking modestly higher, like 151-152F, and then, just to promote activity of alpha-amylase to convert some of the starches into higher-order sugars. At 145F alpha-amylase is virtually nonexistent. I don't think that would appreciably affect the fermentability of the mash.

I always wonder about these posts. 9 out of 10 brewers out there are getting the fermentability out of their wort, but something the OP is doing is or did stalled the yeast out last time. And it happened, once. Could it be that in that one time something went wrong, but if he did the exact same things over again he would finish where he is looking at in the 1.030 range? Thought provoking at best, before you go changing everything about the recipe.

I just did a beer like you are talking about OG was 1.116 and FG 1.033 and used 2 packages of US-05. I also mashed at 156 degrees F for 60 min. So it can be done. (here is a link https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=551164) Not sure what happened to you last time without seeing the recipe.

Good luck.

Delusions_Brewing said:

You may want to read the following article, it expands on the adding wort over time idea:

http://byo.com/hops/item/51-21-alcohol-all-grain-beer

The author used it to create a 21% ABV beer.

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Very cool article. One thing I think he did wrong is that I think it would have been best to add the extra wort a little after high krausen was reached. the yeast are at their most vital and active at that point. That's one thing he didn't address on the things he would change for "next" time, and I think that, plus the beano much earlier, would've likely helped him reach his 25%.

specharka said:

I was only talking modestly higher, like 151-152F, and then, just to promote activity of alpha-amylase to convert some of the starches into higher-order sugars. At 145F alpha-amylase is virtually nonexistent. I don't think that would appreciably affect the fermentability of the mash.

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Oh, yeah ok. I see your point. I think that if he really wants to get the most out of the mash, then a step mash would really help. A long rest at 140, then bring it up to about the 154 range.

madcowbrewing said:

I always wonder about these posts. 9 out of 10 brewers out there are getting the fermentability out of their wort, but something the OP is doing is or did stalled the yeast out last time. And it happened, once. Could it be that in that one time something went wrong, but if he did the exact same things over again he would finish where he is looking at in the 1.030 range? Thought provoking at best, before you go changing everything about the recipe.

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That's a good point. I really think that focusing on the mash temps will only help, but I think focusing on the fermentation will be what really brings this one up.

I just did a RIS @ 1.098. Finished at 1.19 using a medium body step mash. That's as low as it's going apparently. Assuming my yeast gave out or it's just residual sugar from my adjunct (Dark Brown Sugar). I have been adding the Sugar along with an additional active yeast starter 7 Days into primary with bigger beers, it's goes nuts and seems to finish the beers lower.

Brew a 1.090 or so to get the stout flavor. Add maybe a little extra crystal to get the sweetness up. When it's done fermenting add a few bottles of vodka (Everclear would be better and you would need less too) before bottling or kegging. Let is sit for a few months to blend. Should get you where you want to be.

All the Best,
D. White

dwhite60 said:

Brew a 1.090 or so to get the stout flavor. Add maybe a little extra crystal to get the sweetness up. When it's done fermenting add a few bottles of vodka (Everclear would be better and you would need less too) before bottling or kegging. Let is sit for a few months to blend. Should get you where you want to be.

All the Best,
D. White

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I think that very well may be defeating the purpose of him brewing this. I may be wrong, but I believe that he would see that as cheating.

That is how I'd see it.

Wow, got home from work happy to see so much activity on my post. Just to bring a little clarity.....I have done this beer in a very similar recipe and manner 3 times....2 of those were successful in getting my FG into a acceptable range 1.035 (13.5%-14% ABV) and the most recent attempt #3 quit at 1.056. My OG on that 3rd batch was a bit higher than usual (10 points) and that could have contributed to the issue.

The plan always has been to use WLP007 (4L starter off a stir plate) for the primary pitch which in all 3 previous brews quits at about 12%ABV. I like the flavor profile of this strain. I then pitch a comparable size starter of WLP099 to get another ~15 points of gravity drop. I have never been able to get past 14.3%ABV. My guess is that either all the fermentable sugars are gone or something is stressing the yeast causing it to stop. I'm guessing it's the lack of fermentable sugars since I pitch a 4L starter of a yeast that can go up to 25%ABV.

My third batch did not perform this way and it boggles me. So this time I thought I would attempt to push this one up to 15% and get my FG in my "normal mid to low .030's.

I like the concept of not adding all the wort at once and waiting till it hits high krausen before adding additional volume of wort...that sounds simple enough. Also as much as I like to cold steep my dark grains I will either add all of it to the mash or possibly half to get some more fermentables and also help with my mash PH.

Originally Posted by dwhite60 View Post
Brew a 1.090 or so to get the stout flavor. Add maybe a little extra crystal to get the sweetness up. When it's done fermenting add a few bottles of vodka (Everclear would be better and you would need less too) before bottling or kegging. Let is sit for a few months to blend. Should get you where you want to be.

All the Best,
D. White

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Being that I don't want to use even simple sugar adjuncts adding everclear would definitely defeat the purpose.

Brewing this in the morning so i'll do a bit more research tonight and see if there is any more input. Thanks everyone for your comments!

I just finished brewing a 1.143 OG barleywine and I got it to finish at 1.030. I used three packets of rehydrated Nottingham. I also splashed the wort back and forth like 50 times between two buckets to oxygenate it as much as possible. But I think the key for me was step feeding the yeast over a couple of weeks.

strongarm said:

The plan always has been to use WLP007 (4L starter off a stir plate) for the primary pitch which in all 3 previous brews quits at about 12%ABV. I like the flavor profile of this strain. I then pitch a comparable size starter of WLP099 to get another ~15 points of gravity drop. I have never been able to get past 14.3%ABV.

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The flavor profile will be coming from the lag phase and the exponential growth phase. You don't have to wait until the first yeast is getting it all the way to 12% before pitching the wlp099.

So my final tips would be:

1) Do two mash steps. One at 140 for 45-60 minutes, then another at 156 for 30-45 minutes.

2) Step-feed the wort, keeping it at high krausen for as long as possible. I would personally start with 2.5 gallons, then once reaching high krausen, add .5 gallon every other day.

3) Depending on how you step feed it, add in the wlp099 with the last gallon addition. This way it will have more than just the leftovers to consume.

The flavor profile will be coming from the lag phase and the exponential growth phase. You don't have to wait until the first yeast is getting it all the way to 12% before pitching the wlp099.

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Good point. I guess I never really thought about pitching the 099 earlier. I'm going to try the step-feed method as described.

Now on the step mash, this would be my first time doing it. For my purpose of trying to get the most fermentable sugars do doing the 2nd step, 156 alpha, really help with that? If it won't help get more fermentables out or help with attenuation of the wort then I probably wouldn't do it just because of the added complexity with an already complex beer, complex for me atleast.

Part of the issue for me is I do BIAB and it's challenging with 35lbs of grain and only a 15g pot. If I was to do the step mash I think I have a few options.

#1 use my false bottom in the pot so that I can raise my temperature without scorching the bag. I assume I should have a relatively low flame to slowly rise? The only issue with the false bottom is I will lose a little space for my grains and it typically is at the top with 35lbs already. Also I will have to drain the liquid after mash to remove the screen before boil. In that case maybe I don't need to use the bag at all.

#2 don't use the false bottom but pull the back of grains up after the 1st step then bring wort up to temperature. Then lower the bag back down. This will alleviate the bag scorching and give some extra space in the kettle but i'm worried about adjusting for the temp drop when the bag drops back in.

#3 I do have a 7 gallon secondary pot I could split the batch in. Then when it's time to do the 2nd step I could add the hot water to each pot to bring up to 156. Again I would be a bit worried about hitting temps correctly.

One other thought. Because of the space issue could I drain lets say 2 gallons (or whatever amount of water it would take to get up to temp for step 2) of wort before adding the higher temp water? I assume the enzyme activity is with the grains not with the wort so maybe this is a perfect solution?

Yeah I think it will help, and makes sense from what I read. Basically the beta enzymes will make tons of simple sugars, but there were some starches that it couldn't really convert, that the alpha enzyme can. And then the beta can work on the sugars that the alpha create as well, and continue to break those down.

I think the last idea is a good one. It's called decoction, you basically bring it up to a high enough temp to raise the temp of the entire batch, but I think they usually bring that to a boil. You could ask the user named Gavin c, but since he has a space in his username he can't be tagged. Or just look up decoction mashing.

So after some more thinking here is my plan.

Single 15G kettle BIAB
Grain weight 35lbs
Water to Grain ratio 1.25

Add 10.9 gallons of water at 149.9 strike water temp, Mash for 60 minutes at 140. False bottom is installed.

Winch up grain bag so it's out of the wort and above the pot. Turn on burner and bring wort up to 160 degrees (i'm assuming the grain bag will only lose 10 degrees when out of the pot). Lower bag back into the pot and stir. Temp should rest at 156. Mash for 30 minutes.

Remove grain bag and drain wort into bucket. Remove false bottom and add wort back into kettle. Bring to boil.

The biggest risk is hitting that 2nd mash temp since I don't really know how much temp will get lost with the grain bag out of the pot and how well I can mix the thick mash to get an even 156.

I guess I will error on the side of not going over on the mash temp....ending up at 150-156 shouldn't matter too much.

Brewed it yesterday. Hit my first mash temp perfectly at 140 and held it for 60 minutes. I think I missed my 2nd step mash temp. It was really difficult getting the grains mixed with the wort again after raising it to heat for the stepped temp goal of 156. My thermometer in the middle of the kettle showed 156 but the top of the mash showed 142 no matter how much I stirred. I think the mash was just too thick to evenly distribute the higher temp. Final gravity came in at 1.132 a bit under the planned 1.140. That's on top of boiling down to 5g instead of the planned 6g. I think in need a 20g pot next time for this one. Fermentation is strong after only 8 hours. I'll update as it progresses.

Massive starter, double O2, mash low, attentive strain, temperature ramp after day 3. I got recent impy from 1.110 to 1.027 using these techniques. I also mashed overnight.

Queequeg said:

I also mashed overnight.

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This is what I would suggest. Mash at a low temp for along period of time. Also choose the appropriate yeast strain. It is very hard to beat US05/WLP001/1056 and maybe even use the yeast cake of a previous batch

Update,
about 5 days into the fermentation I had a SG of 1.045. I pitched the 099. It's been another 4 days since then so I plan on taking another reading today. Things are looking good so far.

I took another reading about a week ago, unfortunately it was only down to 1.043. I do know that in the past I saw a very slow lag in the 099 doing it's thing....sometimes weeks....but it usually takes off another 10 points. I'm going to pull another reading this week since it's been over 2 weeks now since I pitched. Attenuation is 65%...I think I can get to 72% at the very least.

I think it's a bit late for this but my tips are:

Mash long and low
Use sugar for part of the grain bill
Stagger the sugar additions a few days apart
Oxygenate before pitching and again 12-24 hours after pitching
Use a burly yeast strain. I've had good success with 3787. It brought an RIS from 1.148 to 1.020, which was too low in my opinion.
Ramp up temps near the end of fermentation and agitate the carboy to keep yeast in suspension.

Like I mentioned earlier, My beer was also 1.143 OG and I was able to get it down by using yeast nutrients, splashed the wort between two buckets for like 30 mins, step fed the yeast, then used three packets of Nottingham

3711 will take you to 1.003. Oh wait, you wanted 1.030?

I think it's a bit late for this but my tips are:

Mash long and low
Use sugar for part of the grain bill
Stagger the sugar additions a few days apart
Oxygenate before pitching and again 12-24 hours after pitching
Use a burly yeast strain. I've had good success with 3787. It brought an RIS from 1.148 to 1.020, which was too low in my opinion.
Ramp up temps near the end of fermentation and agitate the carboy to keep yeast in suspension.
__________________

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I'm trying to accomplish this with no sugar adjuncts. Did you use any sugar to get your RIS to attenuate that much?

3711 will take you to 1.003. Oh wait, you wanted 1.030?

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ABV tolerance is 12% on that, I need to be closer to 15% which is why I use 099 as my second yeast pitch.

strongarm said:

I'm trying to accomplish this with no sugar adjuncts. Did you use any sugar to get your RIS to attenuate that much?

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I did, but I thought the FG was too low. A long and low mash will make easily digestible sugars. Everything else will keep the yeast happy enough to eat them.