All my beers taste the same! HELP!

I'm still trying to figure this one out and i'm at a complete loss. I'm producing beers that taste very good without any flaws but each beer has hardly a difference in flavor. I pitch enough yeast and have excellent temp controls. It seems to me no matter what malts I use there is no difference. I cant get that Pilsner malt flavor like in a heineken or that rich munich flavor. I used plenty of Maris otter in the ESB below and the flavor was just not there. I'm at the point where I am going to blame the malts that ive been buying from Northernbrewer. Perhaps they are old? I'm going to order my malts from Country Malts instead of Northernbrewer for freshness. I just dont know what else I'm doing wrong. I made an ESB a Helles Bock and a chocolate stout that just seem 1 dimensional. I'll give an example of recipes below. And yes! I am treating my water with calcium chlorides to up the malt character. Let me know your thoughts. My water is treated through a carbon filter and was tested at ward labs. Calcium 19ppm magnesium 2 Chloride 6 Sulfates 1 sodium < 0 total Alk 55

As you can see below my FGs are high enough to get that rich/sweet mouthfeel. The sweetness is there but i'm missing that base malt flavor everyone loves in german lagers and some English beers.

Common Room ESB:

Type: All Grain
Date: 10/29/2011
Batch Size: 4.25 gal
Boil Size: 5.54 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (7.5 gal) and Igloo Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.70 lb Maris Otter (Crisp) (4.0 SRM) Grain 91.74 %
0.52 lb Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (56.0 SRM) Grain 6.19 %
0.17 lb Crystal Extra Dark - 150L (Crisp) (150.0 SRM) Grain 2.06 %
1.10 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] (60 min) Hops 25.9 IBU
0.25 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] (20 min) Hops 3.6 IBU
0.25 oz Fuggles [4.20 %] (20 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
0.25 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.25 oz Fuggles [4.20 %] (0 min) Hops -
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [Starter 1000 ml] Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.058 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.057 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.017 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.31 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.48 %
Bitterness: 32.0 IBU Calories: 256 cal/pint
Est Color: 11.7 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 8.40 lb
Sparge Water: 3.57 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Light Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 8.40 qt of water at 164.2 F 150.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 4.50 qt of water at 207.7 F 168.0 F



And Jamils chocolate cherry stout:


Type: All Grain
Date: 10/6/2011
Batch Size: 3.50 gal
Boil Size: 4.96 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: Brew Pot (7.5 gal) and Igloo Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.33 lb Maris Otter (Crisp) (4.0 SRM) Grain 84.75 %
0.39 lb Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.54 %
0.33 lb Caramel Malt - 40L (Briess) (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.84 %
0.33 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 3.84 %
0.26 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3.03 %
1.45 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] (60 min) Hops 40.9 IBU
0.29 lb Chocolate un-sweetened (Boil 0.0 min) Misc
3.00 lb Cherry Pure (Secondary 2.0 weeks) Misc
1 Pkgs London Ale (Wyeast Labs #1028) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.071 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.076 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.017 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.018 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.06 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.59 %
Bitterness: 40.9 IBU Calories: 347 cal/pint
Est Color: 35.6 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 8.65 lb
Sparge Water: 3.11 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Light Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 8.65 qt of water at 166.6 F 152.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 3.93 qt of water at 209.6 F 168.0 F



Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 2.6 oz Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 60.0 F Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 52.0 F


I also made some sorta Helles bock with 65% contential Pilsner malt and 30% munch with about 30 ibus. Final FG was 1.014 OG was 1.061. It has nice body slighty sweet nice hope flavor with magnums but i just cant taste the base malts grrrrr


Thanks in advance for your input!

Base malts have very little flavor when compared to munich or crystal malts. If you want to taste base malts try making a single hopped single malt beer like a lager. Ten pounds of two row, ounce of saaz. Lager. No way you will taste base in your second recipe.

runningweird said:

Base malts have very little flavor when compared to munich or crystal malts. If you want to taste base malts try making a single hopped single malt beer like a lager. Ten pounds of two row, ounce of saaz. Lager. No way you will taste base in your second recipe.

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Well the thrid recipe is pretty basic and I dont taste that Doughy breadlike pilsner flavor in it. I did a 60 and 15 minute additions with magnums. There is 5% caramunich in it as well.

Are you using the same yeast? I was using 05 quite a bit, and feremented at higher temps, they all sorta had the same flavor. Or at least one predominant esther from the yeast fermenting a bit warm.

Changed my yeast up and dropped the temp. Bueno!

meatwad said:

Are you using the same yeast? I was using 05 quite a bit, and feremented at higher temps, they all sorta had the same flavor. Or at least one predominant esther from the yeast fermenting a bit warm.

Changed my yeast up and dropped the temp. Bueno!

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Well for the Helles I used an Alt yeast and fermented at 60f then lagered. I used London 1968 for the ESB at 68F. I dont know maybe im crazy but my beers dont come out with that nice malty flavor like some commercial beers.

Your water perhaps?

Tried decoction mashing yet? That adds to maltiness.

klamz said:

As you can see below my FGs are high enough to get that rich/sweet mouthfeel. The sweetness is there but i'm missing that base malt flavor everyone loves in german lagers and some English beers.

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I'd be frustrated, too!

The quote above makes me a little confused about what you're seeking, however.

Rich & sweet seem like flavor issues, not mouthfeel. However, with 8% or more of crystal/flavor malts, I'd think you would have some sweetness. That leaves me with some questions:

1. Are the beers bland?
2. Does anyone else drink your beers? If so, do they think the beers all tast the same, or is it just you?

I ask #2 b/c to me mouthfeel is more about the tactile impact of the beer. While my recent ESB was also mashed at 150, I believe the rule is lower mash temp = more fermentables = less body/thinner mouthfeel. I don't think you'd want a big, round feel to your ESB? For stouts, on the other hand, I like to mash closer to 156 to get that full, sort of chewy experience. 152 seems a bit low for my tastes (although I'd agree that 1.018 seems like it should be a bit more full tasting).

If everyone thinks your beers lack flavor, then the only thing I could think of would be your water profile... and sadly I haven't gotten to that aspect of brewing yet b/c we have great brewing water here.

Good luck!

Piratwolf said:

I'd be frustrated, too!

The quote above makes me a little confused about what you're seeking, however.

Rich & sweet seem like flavor issues, not mouthfeel. However, with 8% or more of crystal/flavor malts, I'd think you would have some sweetness. That leaves me with some questions:

1. Are the beers bland?
2. Does anyone else drink your beers? If so, do they think the beers all tast the same, or is it just you?

I ask #2 b/c to me mouthfeel is more about the tactile impact of the beer. While my recent ESB was also mashed at 150, I believe the rule is lower mash temp = more fermentables = less body/thinner mouthfeel. I don't think you'd want a big, round feel to your ESB? For stouts, on the other hand, I like to mash closer to 156 to get that full, sort of chewy experience. 152 seems a bit low for my tastes (although I'd agree that 1.018 seems like it should be a bit more full tasting).

If everyone thinks your beers lack flavor, then the only thing I could think of would be your water profile... and sadly I haven't gotten to that aspect of brewing yet b/c we have great brewing water here.

Good luck!

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From my understanding. The final gravity affects the mouthfeel and residual sugars. So if I mash at 149f and end up with an FG of 1.016 its going to be full bodied and sweet at the same time. Am I wrong here? Most of my beers have enough sweetness but no distinct maltiness you would find in let's. Say a spaten munich lager or a fullers ESB. That doughy breadlike flavor munich malt and pilsner malts give are hard to detect so it seems kinda bland. I hope that helps

klamz said:

From my understanding. The final gravity affects the mouthfeel and residual sugars. So if I mash at 149f and end up with an FG of 1.016 its going to be full bodied and sweet at the same time. Am I wrong here? Most of my beers have enough sweetness but no distinct maltiness you would find in let's. Say a spaten munich lager or a fullers ESB. That doughy breadlike flavor munich malt and pilsner malts give are hard to detect so it seems kinda bland. I hope that helps

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I don't think you're wrong so much as there's more than one way to skin a cat.

From my reading & experience, a HIGHER mash temp leads to longer chains that can't be completely broken down (unfermentables) and that causes greater body (not necessarily sweetness), and a higher FG as a result. Lower mash temps make your wort easier for yeast to convert, ending in a lower FG, thinner mouthfeel, and higher ABV. I listened to the Jamil Show podcast on the way home and he described mashing higher to get more body & bigger mouthfeel. The sweetness can also come from alcohol & specialty malts (manipulating the grain bill), as well as from some of the unfermentables.

The thing that puzzles me most is that the 1968 ESB yeast is supposed to highlight the maltiness and ester flavor, so to lack the bready flavor with that is strange. Given all of that, I would probably consider trying a different grain supplier as you were considering. Maybe just order an AG kit from NB or AHS and brew it up. If you get the flavor, you know it's a grain issue. If not, the remaining culprit would likely be your water. I read here that some water profiles really fail to produce flavors.

Do I understand that you have an OG of 1.076 with 8.5 lbs of malt? I know cherries too but could there be a hydrometer issue? What is your brewhouse efficiency?

I find big differences with subbing 2-3 lbs of munich or vienna for base malt. That said I get ~70% efficiency, so I mash ~14 lbs of malt for a 1.076 OG.

This might help you in your pursuit of British beer:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/british-yeasts-fermentation-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/

Northcalais40 said:

Do I understand that you have an OG of 1.076 with 8.5 lbs of malt? I know cherries too but could there be a hydrometer issue? What is your brewhouse efficiency?

I find big differences with subbing 2-3 lbs of munich or vienna for base malt. That said I get ~70% efficiency, so I mash ~14 lbs of malt for a 1.076 OG.

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I think thats wrong. It was actually 1.073 with the fruit and it was a 4gallon batch.

harrydrez said:

This might help you in your pursuit of British beer:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/british-yeasts-fermentation-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/

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This is great. I am having that same problem. The beer tastes great out of the fermentor but then it all fades after 3 weeks in the bottle.

I'm also having the same problem. I have made 5 beers w/the same yeast and I'm gonna drop it like a bad habit this next time. I've made some VERY different beers and yet they taste almost identical. I really hope a new yeast fixes things, because it got old really really fast. Every beer just tastes like a slightly stronger/weaker version of the others w/the same weird flavors going on.

punk_rockin2001 said:

I'm also having the same problem. I have made 5 beers w/the same yeast and I'm gonna drop it like a bad habit this next time. I've made some VERY different beers and yet they taste almost identical. I really hope a new yeast fixes things, because it got old really really fast. Every beer just tastes like a slightly stronger/weaker version of the others w/the same weird flavors going on.

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Too my surprise I opened my last ESB not too long ago and man did it taste different! I can actually taste the base malt now. It took almost 2 months for the ESB to condition apparently. The first few bottles I opened tasted nothing like the last one. How long have you been aging your brews?

klamz said:

Too my surprise I opened my last ESB not too long ago and man did it taste different! I can actually taste the base malt now. It took almost 2 months for the ESB to condition apparently. The first few bottles I opened tasted nothing like the last one. How long have you been aging your brews?

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Hate to resurrect such an old thread, but are you still having the same problem with the taste? If not, what did you do differently?

Change the yeast strain. *yup*

urg8rb8 said:

Hate to resurrect such an old thread, but are you still having the same problem with the taste? If not, what did you do differently?

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No, I no longer have any issues with flavor. since the start of the thread I learned the following:

When using base malts such as Munich, Dark Munich or Marris Otter or any other slightly darker base malt 3.5-15L, you will need to age the beer much longer to get the base malt flavor to develop. Keep the beer simple and age it for
3-6 months and you will start to actually taste something.

When using pale malts in a low gravity brew, aging wont bring out much more flavor because they are pretty much bland at 2L.

A simple 5abv pale ale using 2L American pale malt and a little crystal malt should need no more than a month of aging. Now try to make an English style old ale or a Scottish ale. you will not taste the maltiness of the English marris otter until about 3 months or more. So in some cases your base malt choice will determine your aging time. This also applies to German munich dunkels dopplebocks and Scottish Wee heavyies which all use dark base malts. These beers need a long time to develop the melanoidin flavors that we love so much!

Hope this helps!!

I 'd also like to add that crystal malts need aging too. So say for instance you want to make a beer high in crystal malt like Anderson Valley's Barney Flats. They use about 2lbs of crystal in a 5 gallon batch. You wont start to taste caramel flavors until month 2-3.

klamz said:

No, I no longer have any issues with flavor. since the start of the thread I learned the following:

When using base malts such as Munich, Dark Munich or Marris Otter or any other slightly darker base malt 3.5-15L, you will need to age the beer much longer to get the base malt flavor to develop. Keep the beer simple and age it for
3-6 months and you will start to actually taste something.

When using pale malts in a low gravity brew, aging wont bring out much more flavor because they are pretty much bland at 2L.

A simple 5abv pale ale using 2L American pale malt and a little crystal malt should need no more than a month of aging. Now try to make an English style old ale or a Scottish ale. you will not taste the maltiness of the English marris otter until about 3 months or more. So in some cases your base malt choice will determine your aging time. This also applies to German munich dunkels dopplebocks and Scottish Wee heavyies which all use dark base malts. These beers need a long time to develop the melanoidin flavors that we love so much!

Hope this helps!!

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Thanks for the reply!!! So basically let the beer age and let the flavors develop!

A couple of characteristics of aging beer are a decrease in hop influence and an increase in perceived sweetness.

urg8rb8 said:

Thanks for the reply!!! So basically let the beer age and let the flavors develop!

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Yes!
simple Pale Ales low in crystal and Wheat beers are some examples of beers with a quick turn around time. It can be consumed as soon as the beer clears. But once you start adding fancy malts and/or increasing ABV give it more time! don't expect to taste them for what they truly are until it matures.