I completely underestimated role of oxygen

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I'm still waiting to taste the second of my last two batches, which were brewed with the Williams system. The great thing about the Williams wand is it's low maintenance. Just throw it in the last 15 minutes of the boil along with the chiller, it stays in there during chilling, then transfer, hook up the line, an oxygenate. Then rinse, store until next time, repeat.
 
I haven't gotten around to drinking any of the beers I've used my O2 system on yet. I've got one chest freezer that has to act as fermentation chamber and serving kegerator, so I typically brew a bunch of beer to fill it and then crank the temp down to serving.

However, I did get my hands on a dissolved O2 meter.

Today I brewed a BoPils. Gravity after boil was 1.056. I knocked out 5.5g into two carboys. Both carboys got 120s of O2 followed by about 20 seconds of shaking. Again, I'm not sure what micron stone I've got. I opened the regulator on the disposable O2 tank all the way. Both carboys ended up with 1-1.5" of foam on top after the O2. Then, before I pitched yeast, I siphoned out some of the oxygenated wort and filled two 12oz bottles all the way, then capped them. That way the only O2 in the bottle should be what was dissolved in the wort, not what was in the headspace of the bottle.

Again, 5.5g of 1.056 wort, at 52F, that had been hit with 120 seconds of O2 and about 20s of shaking. The dissolved O2 came out to 15ppm for both bottles.

I had been doing either 60s or 90s of O2 for my ales, depending on gravity, and decided to go to 120s for lagers.

I plan on doing this again in the future to see if its consistent, but hopefully that starts getting some concrete data for this thread.
 
broadbill said:
What question are you trying to answer?
Click to expand...

"How much dissolved O2 results from oxygenating with a fully open regulator (presumably the one widely available at homebrew shops) for a given amount of time?"

Unfortunately, I have no idea of the tolerances for manufacturing these things, so other regulators, even if the same kind made in the same facility, might be quite different.
 
Rundownhouse said:
I haven't gotten around to drinking any of the beers I've used my O2 system on yet. I've got one chest freezer that has to act as fermentation chamber and serving kegerator, so I typically brew a bunch of beer to fill it and then crank the temp down to serving.

However, I did get my hands on a dissolved O2 meter.

Today I brewed a BoPils. Gravity after boil was 1.056. I knocked out 5.5g into two carboys. Both carboys got 120s of O2 followed by about 20 seconds of shaking. Again, I'm not sure what micron stone I've got. I opened the regulator on the disposable O2 tank all the way. Both carboys ended up with 1-1.5" of foam on top after the O2. Then, before I pitched yeast, I siphoned out some of the oxygenated wort and filled two 12oz bottles all the way, then capped them. That way the only O2 in the bottle should be what was dissolved in the wort, not what was in the headspace of the bottle.

Again, 5.5g of 1.056 wort, at 52F, that had been hit with 120 seconds of O2 and about 20s of shaking. The dissolved O2 came out to 15ppm for both bottles.

I had been doing either 60s or 90s of O2 for my ales, depending on gravity, and decided to go to 120s for lagers.

I plan on doing this again in the future to see if its consistent, but hopefully that starts getting some concrete data for this thread.
Click to expand...

Where did you get the O2 stone from?
 
emjay said:
"How much dissolved O2 results from oxygenating with a fully open regulator (presumably the one widely available at homebrew shops) for a given amount of time?"

Unfortunately, I have no idea of the tolerances for manufacturing these things, so other regulators, even if the same kind made in the same facility, might be quite different.
Click to expand...

Got it. The other unknown is how precise the oxygen meter is; a reading of 15ppm +/- 0.1ppm and a reading of 15ppm +/-5ppm could mean two different things in this sort of experiment...
 
emjay said:
Where did you get the O2 stone from?
Click to expand...
It was a gift, and my gf could not remember where she bought it. Definitely not the Williams kit.

broadbill said:
Got it. The other unknown is how precise the oxygen meter is; a reading of 15ppm +/- 0.1ppm and a reading of 15ppm +/-5ppm could mean two different things in this sort of experiment...
Click to expand...
Its an Orbisphere 3650 and the range is .1ppb-20ppm, so I'm assuming the ppm reading is pretty much spot-on.
 
How about an experimental approach using a set amount of oxygen per minute (Liters/min) delivered into a liquid through a standard fish aquarium stone into tap water (which probably has zero parts per million of O2) maybe Coca Cola (likewise zero oxygen) and maybe a clear beef broth (zero O2) to see if the oxygenation of the various medias are uniform thru varying times (60, 90, 120, 140 etc. seconds) of running the set amt. O2 into them). Also the oxygen levels with just shaking before infusion with oxygen.

Also, in your next batch measure O2 levels at shaking only, then 60, 90, 120 etc. second increments to compare to the other liquids.

Looking forward to the data.

Happy 4th to all.
 
I've been searching the web for the past couple of days without any real luck, so I thought I'd post the question in this thread...

How do you convert PSI to L/minute for gas? I'll be using my 10# O2 tank, with dual stage regulator, and airstone (from Williams Brewing, on the wand) to oxygenate the wort for future batches. I can dial in the PSI, but I'm trying to figure out what the L/minute flow rate would be at PSI numbers. The dial does have kPa numbers on it too, if that helps. I just want a way to see how much gas is going into the wort, in order to hit the target concentration.
 
Golddiggie said:
I've been searching the web for the past couple of days without any real luck, so I thought I'd post the question in this thread...

How do you convert PSI to L/minute for gas? I'll be using my 10# O2 tank, with dual stage regulator, and airstone (from Williams Brewing, on the wand) to oxygenate the wort for future batches. I can dial in the PSI, but I'm trying to figure out what the L/minute flow rate would be at PSI numbers. The dial does have kPa numbers on it too, if that helps. I just want a way to see how much gas is going into the wort, in order to hit the target concentration.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can, at least not with any degree of precision. From the BYO article on using O2 to oxygenate:

Some brewers attempt to replace a gas flow meter with a gas pressure gauge. Without getting into details, I do not recommend using pressure as an indication of flow because it simply does not work well. Unless you know that 10 psi gas pressure delivered to your stone gives some known flow rate you are guessing. The bottom line is that to use oxygen for brewing you really should have a flow meter.
Click to expand...

I use the red O2 tanks, Williams Brewing stone and regulator, with this $45 low flow rotometer by Dakota:

dakota_acrylic_meter.jpg
 
I'll look to get one of those soon... Got a large truck repair bill coming this week, so I have to watch what I spend right now. I'll see if any of the welding gas places have something like that in stock, so that I can see the damned thing. I'll also need to see about connecting it up to the regulator I have. It might come down to, on my setup, X PSI gives Y L/minute flow... If I cannot get the flow meter before my next batch, I'll probably end up using the visual method... I will get the flow meter soon though, so that I have a much better idea of how much O2 is going into the wort.
 
If you do get the Dakota low flow meter, you will also need to get some barbed NPT fittings to connect the tubing from your regulator to the rotometer and from the rotometer to the wand. I can't remember if I used these or these.
 
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$45 eh? I'm definitely grabbing one. A DO meter though is still a bit pricy considering my other priorities right now.
 
I'll probably just take it to either Lowe's or HD and get the barb fittings to do the job... Depending on how the truck repair comes out, I might even order the thing up in the next week, or two.

I will need to figure out a way to mount the thing, so that I can keep it either on the tank, or maybe mount it to something that connects to the tank (zip ties or large hose clamps). I do have 10' of tubing to connect to the wand, so I can have the tank in one location and hit plenty of fermenters. :D
 
Just used mine for the first time, can't wait to see the improvements

Anyone have any updates?
 
I've scored two O2 flow meters (from ebay) that connect to standard (welding supply) O2 tanks (not the medical ones where you need a Rx to get them). Up to 8LpM flow rates on both. I've also since purchased brass swivel nuts that mate to the flow meter out port and my 3/16" ID tubing (beer line). This lets me use a clamp to hold the tubing to the fitting to make it more secure. I now keep one of the setups at home, and the other at my brew-buddy's place. Means I can oxygenate when brewing beer (at his place) or when making mead, or other things (at mine).

With a small amount of digging you can get these from either ebay or amazon for pretty short money. I've seen some as low as $20 there.
 
Noticing how great the brews taste. I've done this with so many batches since we started this thread that I can't recall what they were like before. I do remember brewing a recipe, or two, earlier that I had done without using pure O2 and prefer the version with pure O2.

I'm on the prowl for a good DO meter now. Something that has a good range and will properly measure wort. Seems there are a good number of them in the $150-$400 range. Just need to see which will do it up right.

I plan on making some more mead this weekend. I'll be hitting those batches with pure O2 right before pitching the yeast. Probably another hit, or two, after, depending on how much O2 I infuse them with. This is where the meter would really be helpful.
 
I'm on my second batch using pure o2 and it's been impressive to say the least. The beers are tasting so damn good so early that it seems impossible. I just sampled what will eventually (hopefully) be an oud bruin inside of a year that first has been fermented with Windsor dry ale yeast.

4 days into primary this warm flat sample floored me, tasted ready to drink now.... And that's with a yeast that most everybody hates.... Except me, when fermented at 65 and with a pure o2 hit for 60 seconds. Temp control via a fridge and this o2 setup have made my beers infinitely better than going AG from extract IMO.
 
duckmanco said:
I'm on my second batch using pure o2 and it's been impressive to say the least. The beers are tasting so damn good so early that it seems impossible. I just sampled what will eventually (hopefully) be an oud bruin inside of a year that first has been fermented with Windsor dry ale yeast.

4 days into primary this warm flat sample floored me, tasted ready to drink now.... And that's with a yeast that most everybody hates.... Except me, when fermented at 65 and with a pure o2 hit for 60 seconds. Temp control via a fridge and this o2 setup have made my beers infinitely better than going AG from extract IMO.
Click to expand...

Temp control is definitely the most important aspect of fermentation. The dry yeast shouldn't have needed much O2 since you are pitching such large numbers of yeast cells, so this batch isn't a good indicator of what the O2 does to your setup.
 
Looking forward to getting my o2 tank from Central Welding and my medical regulator with flowmeter from ebay!
 
The addition of a chest freezer for fermentation temps, an aeration kit, and a stir plate to make starters has dramatically improved my beers. When I get ready to taste the first sample post fermentation, I no longer hope it will taste good. I expect it to. Managing fermentation is really what sets brewers apart IMO.
 
Reading through these 23 pages has now left me with several questions I hope someone can answer.

1. Is the 2 micron or the 0.5 micron diffusion stone the better choice for doing ales? How much more difficult is it to clean the 0.5 micron stone?

2. Most of my fermentors are in plastic buckets and not carboys. Will this new way of adding O2 work just as well for buckets as for carboys?

3. From what I have read using dry yeast will not necessarily require the use of O2 diffusion but will using it hurt the beer?

4. What about reusing dry yeast that has been washed and is now stored in liquid form? Will this benefit from the O2 diffusion process? [There is no quality LHBS within 100 miles of me so I try to wash dry yeast if I am running low on US-05 or Notty].

5. For ales with OG of 1.040-1.060 what would be the time to have the O2 pumping and will this depend on the size of the diffusion stone used? [I would assume that the 0.5 micron would need more time but how much more than the 2.0 micron?]

6. I now have a system of two burners set up where I can be brewing two different batches of beer in tandem with each other. [With a growing family I am finding I have fewer "quality brew days" available so doing to brews near the same time is helpfull.] If I did go with the either the 2.0 or 0.5 micron stone, would I need to clean the stone thoroughly between uses that are 15 minutes apart?

7. Which part(s) of this system are placed in the wort during the last 15 minutes to help steralize the system? [I recall rading something about this in these 23 pages of comments but cannot find where it may have been.]

Thanks for any info people are willing to share.
 
msa8967 said:
Reading through these 23 pages has now left me with several questions I hope someone can answer.

1. Is the 2 micron or the 0.5 micron diffusion stone the better choice for doing ales? How much more difficult is it to clean the 0.5 micron stone?

2. Most of my fermentors are in plastic buckets and not carboys. Will this new way of adding O2 work just as well for buckets as for carboys?

3. From what I have read using dry yeast will not necessarily require the use of O2 diffusion but will using it hurt the beer?

4. What about reusing dry yeast that has been washed and is now stored in liquid form? Will this benefit from the O2 diffusion process? [There is no quality LHBS within 100 miles of me so I try to wash dry yeast if I am running low on US-05 or Notty].

5. For ales with OG of 1.040-1.060 what would be the time to have the O2 pumping and will this depend on the size of the diffusion stone used? [I would assume that the 0.5 micron would need more time but how much more than the 2.0 micron?]

6. I now have a system of two burners set up where I can be brewing two different batches of beer in tandem with each other. [With a growing family I am finding I have fewer "quality brew days" available so doing to brews near the same time is helpfull.] If I did go with the either the 2.0 or 0.5 micron stone, would I need to clean the stone thoroughly between uses that are 15 minutes apart?

7. Which part(s) of this system are placed in the wort during the last 15 minutes to help steralize the system? [I recall rading something about this in these 23 pages of comments but cannot find where it may have been.]

Thanks for any info people are willing to share.
Click to expand...

1) can't help you on this one, not sure.
2) this is an interesting question. I think i've heard that a good bit of the oxygen transfer actually occurs at the surface, and you probably maintain a better oxygen blanket with a carboy vs a bucket. But regardless, it will work with buckets as well, might be slightly less efficient, dunno.
3) the yeast manufacturers say that dry yeast have enough built up sterols already to not need oxygen. As long as you're not over-oxygenating, tho, you shouldn't cause problems by adding O2.
4) when you repitch dry yeast, that whole argument about built up sterols goes right out the window and oxygenation becomse much more important.
5) recommendation is around 10 ppm, which with a 0.5 micron stone is 1 minute of O2 at 1L/min. I do no have flow meter, i just wing it and figure its better than nothing.
6) Between batches like that, I would probably just rinse the stone, and then dunk it in sanitizer until you're ready to use it again.
7) I don't put any of my O2 system in the boiling wort. I boil the stone in water on the stove, and then put it on the tubing and stick any part of the tubing that's going to end up in the wort as well as the stone in starsan until i need it. But anything that's going to need to touch the wort needs to be sanitized.
 
discnjh said:
1) can't help you on this one, not sure.
2) this is an interesting question. I think i've heard that a good bit of the oxygen transfer actually occurs at the surface, and you probably maintain a better oxygen blanket with a carboy vs a bucket. But regardless, it will work with buckets as well, might be slightly less efficient, dunno.
3) the yeast manufacturers say that dry yeast have enough built up sterols already to not need oxygen. As long as you're not over-oxygenating, tho, you shouldn't cause problems by adding O2.
4) when you repitch dry yeast, that whole argument about built up sterols goes right out the window and oxygenation becomse much more important.
5) recommendation is around 10 ppm, which with a 0.5 micron stone is 1 minute of O2 at 1L/min. I do no have flow meter, i just wing it and figure its better than nothing.
6) Between batches like that, I would probably just rinse the stone, and then dunk it in sanitizer until you're ready to use it again.
7) I don't put any of my O2 system in the boiling wort. I boil the stone in water on the stove, and then put it on the tubing and stick any part of the tubing that's going to end up in the wort as well as the stone in starsan until i need it. But anything that's going to need to touch the wort needs to be sanitized.
Click to expand...

+1 on everything above!
 
Any link on eBay to a flowmeter that would work with the disposable welding tanks? Can't seem to find one that fits although some have claimed it's easy to find for cheap on eBay.
Help!
 
discnjh said:
1) can't help you on this one, not sure.
2) this is an interesting question. I think i've heard that a good bit of the oxygen transfer actually occurs at the surface, and you probably maintain a better oxygen blanket with a carboy vs a bucket. But regardless, it will work with buckets as well, might be slightly less efficient, dunno.
3) the yeast manufacturers say that dry yeast have enough built up sterols already to not need oxygen. As long as you're not over-oxygenating, tho, you shouldn't cause problems by adding O2.
4) when you repitch dry yeast, that whole argument about built up sterols goes right out the window and oxygenation becomse much more important.
5) recommendation is around 10 ppm, which with a 0.5 micron stone is 1 minute of O2 at 1L/min. I do no have flow meter, i just wing it and figure its better than nothing.
6) Between batches like that, I would probably just rinse the stone, and then dunk it in sanitizer until you're ready to use it again.
7) I don't put any of my O2 system in the boiling wort. I boil the stone in water on the stove, and then put it on the tubing and stick any part of the tubing that's going to end up in the wort as well as the stone in starsan until i need it. But anything that's going to need to touch the wort needs to be sanitized.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to answer all of these questions. I am going to start searching to see who sells these kits and get one for my next batch.
 
2micron vs .5 micron is irrelevant because the back pressure created by large vs small micron diffusers is irrelevant. The flow meter set at X liters means the O2 bottle is delivering X liters per minute at the flow meter not at the diffusion stone. I recommend strapping the stone/hose to a length of wire (straightened coat hanger) with small boat ties (cable ties) [sterilize with booze or Everclear misted onto the gizmo with a99cent mist bottle from the Dollar store or Walley-World. The wire gizmo facilitates getting the stone to the bottom of the wort, otherwise the stone just floats on top oxygenating only the top inch or 2 of the wort. To clean the stone I simply immerse it in water while the O2 is still bubbling then switch off the O2 and immerse the stone in the Everclear.
 
Bones1948 said:
To clean the stone I simply immerse it in water while the O2 is still bubbling then switch off the O2 and immerse the stone in the Everclear.
Click to expand...

I did this on my last batch of beer. It was a hoppy beer and since I dont strain very much of the hop trub out I think I might have clogged the "pores." To sanitize the wand I would turn the O2 on, then put it in my Star San bucket for 30 seconds, then I would go into the beer and let it sit on the bottom for 45 seconds, then back to the Star San for another 30 seconds. Originally, I was getting a lot of bubbles, now it's barely anything at the surface.

Do you (or anybody else) have any ideas on a way to clean the wand so I can get more O2 through it? I've checked for leaks and cant find any, so I'm pretty sure the issue is the bottom of the wand. I tried boiling it today but that didnt make much of a difference.
 
This idea might be way out there but does your wife (or mom or sister or aunt or even you) have an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner? Might be able to jar any little pieces out of the holes.
 
kpr121 said:
This idea might be way out there but does your wife (or mom or sister or aunt or even you) have an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner? Might be able to jar any little pieces out of the holes.
Click to expand...

Negative. That's not a bad idea though, I can try to procure one
 
I skimmed through the first 11 or so pages of this thread... have there been any studies similar to the White Labs experiment on using a degasser wand on a drill (Mix-Stir) to aerate? I am sure the max there is 8ppm since it is just using air, but is there any proof that using one of these devices is more or less effective than shaking or using an aqua pump?
 
Has anyone had success using a 10 lb O2 tank and a regulator for the O2 addition? I saw at Harbor Freight that a 10 lb tank is $100 and a O2 regulator is $35. I have two coupons for 25% off so I am wondering if this might be a better way to go instead of the throw away $10 bottles from the hardware store.

Here is the regulator at HF. I do NOT know if this is suited for what we want with the beer making. If it is not suited for what we need could someone please post either a picture or a link to the type of regulator that is best suited for what we need to do.

Oxygen Regulator
 
msa8967, that's a PSI regulator, which I wouldn't go with. I did use mine initially, but got frustrated since I had no idea what the LpM rate was (there is no conversion formula I'm told).

I'm now using the 20 cubic foot O2 tanks, that are about $100 at welding suppliers. So probably the same size tank as you're looking at. It's the same size as a 5# CO2 tank.

They measure the tank capacities different between CO2 and O2...

I would look for a regulator like
1
this one. You can also look on Amazon for them. At under $30 total (delivered), it's cheaper than the one from Harbor Freight, AND will give you the ability to infuse at a LpM rate. BTW, he's listing more than 10 available.

I picked up one from him, and have no issue with it. You can get a brass fitting from a welding supply store that goes from the threaded gas-out to a 3/16" barb. Perfect to go to your O2 wand/stone...
 
Goldie,

Thanks for the post. Can you answer a few more questions for me? I like the idea of trying to use a more permanent tank because I hate the idea of throwing the dissposable tanks away.

1. What size diffusion stone do you currently use?
2. What setting is your for the liters/minute and how long do you let the O2 flow for your diffusion stone?

Thansk for the quick reply and showing me what type of regulator to buy.
 
I have the stone on the stainless wand that William's sells, which is the 2 micron sized. Works really well and doesn't get clogged up. I've seen enough postings (on feedback segments) about the .5 micron stone to not use/want it.

For my 'normal' OG brews (under 1.075) I usually give it 1Lpm for one or two minutes. Less time for lower OG brews, towards the top of the range for the higher OG brews. For over 1.075, I give it 1-2Lpm for at least 60-90 seconds. It really depends on how much it foams up.

With the large tanks, you get a lot more batches before you need to swap/refill it. Most places will swap it out, which is probably better in this case. Especially since it could take you a year, or more, to go through a 20 cubic foot tank.

I picked up the kit from William's originally, with the hose, stone on the wand, and regulator. I'm not using any of that besides the stone on the wand. I since picked up another stone on wand so that I can have one at home, as well as leave one at my brew-buddy's place. This allows me to make other things at home without needing to go and get my O2 setup.

I would opt to use 3/16" ID beer tubing for the O2. You can use normal clamps to connect it to the barb fitting (to connect to the regulator). I don't use any clamp on the wand, so that I can simply pull it off when done. I slip about an inch of tubing over the wand, to make sure it's a good fit. With the beer tubing, I have more confidence in it staying in place. The tubing that came with the kit seemed so thin to me.
 
Can you tell me if this is the same regulator you refered to via ebay. The price is about the same but I have some amazon gift card action to use up.

Amazon.com: H/M Oxygen Regulator 0-15 Liters: Health & Personal Care

I didn't think about needing to swap out a tank instead of being refilled. I may try to find a used tank in that case. I do have a spare 5 lbs CO2 tank that I won't being using anymore since I upgraded to a 20 lb tank for the new keezer. I am not sure if they would put O2 in a CO2 tank.
 
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You won't be able to get them to use a CO2 tank for O2. Different threads on the valves, not to mention regulations.

That regulator isn't the one I have. Mine goes to 8Lpm, which is better for brewing. You want more control at the low end (which the 8Lpm version offers).

This is a good option, if you don't want to get the one from ebay...
Oxygen Regulator, 0-4 LPM, CGA540, DISS OUTLET, with colored gauge protector

Or this one: H/M Oxygen Regulator with Diss Outlet Volume Capacity: 0-8 Liters
 
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msa8967 said:
Can you tell me if this is the same regulator you refered to via ebay. The price is about the same but I have some amazon gift card action to use up.

Video Link: http://www.amazon.com/Oxygen-Regulator-0-15-Liters/dp/B004UTNLYY/ref=sr_1_8?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1326161356&sr=1-8

I didn't think about needing to swap out a tank instead of being refilled. I may try to find a used tank in that case. I do have a spare 5 lbs CO2 tank that I won't being using anymore since I upgraded to a 20 lb tank for the new keezer. I am not sure if they would put O2 in a CO2 tank.
Click to expand...

They wont put o2 in a co2 tank but a welding supply place may give you credit towards a trade in if you ask nicely.
 
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