Advice on Drying out a Saison

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gwood

gwood

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I'm looking for some advice on how best to dry out my Saison. OG was 1.068 and I just measured my first reading ten days later at 1.020. I think that comes out to damn near 70% attenuation, which is good, but I'd like this thing to be bone dry. I used White Labs 565 (Saison I) which appears to top out at 75%. The sample was quite good, nice esters and a delicate malt profile with just a bit of sweetness.

Should I make a 1056 starter or could I re-hydrate 05 and add to a starter? Should I pitch it right to the primary? I also have some Montrachet left over.

This is my first Saison and the first time I plan to pitch more than once on a beer. I'll plan to let it sit another week and then make a call. Recipe attached as bsm.

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

View attachment Saison du Wood.bsm
 
gwood said:
Should I make a 1056 starter or could I re-hydrate 05 and add to a starter? Should I pitch it right to the primary? I also have some Montrachet left over.
Click to expand...

I'm about to brew my first Saison too. I've read a lot about it, and theory says, you should rise the temp towards the end of fermentation to 75-80F, and if it doesn't help, add new yeast - 1056 or wine yeast, in a pint-sized active starter.
I wonder if it is possible also to use lager yeast, they are quite attentuative...

I think you should pitch to primary, but I think I will decant to secondary first, to save the clean Saison slurry for next batch.
 
Piotr said:
I'm about to brew my first Saison too. I've read a lot about it, and theory says, you should rise the temp towards the end of fermentation to 75-80F, and if it doesn't help, add new yeast - 1056 or wine yeast, in a pint-sized active starter.
I wonder if it is possible also to use lager yeast, they are quite attentuative...

I think you should pitch to primary, but I think I will decant to secondary first, to save the clean Saison slurry for next batch.
Click to expand...

That theory holds water for the typical abbey yeast but with the saison yeasts, you want them to ferment warm from the get go since the esters and phenols are generally part of the desired flavor profile. (one reason that you always see folks recommend brewing saisons in the summer for brewers w/out temp control).

OP: I'd keep your temps up and let the yeast do it's thing. I had a similar experience w/565 fermented in the mid-upper 80s where it held around 1.018 until about day 10 then dropped over the next 4 days down below 1.010. If you decide to pitch something else, neutral and high attenuation would be what I'd look for so US05/1056/wlp001 or nottingham fit the bill.
 
brewt00l said:
That theory holds water for the typical abbey yeast but with the saison yeasts, you want them to ferment warm from the get go since the esters and phenols are generally part of the desired flavor profile. (one reason that you always see folks recommend brewing saisons in the summer for brewers w/out temp control).
Click to expand...

I ramped it right up into the 80's and have had great results so far.

brewt00l said:
OP: I'd keep your temps up and let the yeast do it's thing. I had a similar experience w/565 fermented in the mid-upper 80s where it held around 1.018 until about day 10 then dropped over the next 4 days down below 1.010. If you decide to pitch something else, neutral and high attenuation would be what I'd look for so US05/1056/wlp001 or nottingham fit the bill.
Click to expand...

I'll keep the temps up and maybe give a good swirl when I get home today. I might have to get a heating pad as it's starting to cool down here now at night a bit. It was 80s and 90s during the day in the garage and 60s at night. The carboy has gotten up to 85F but it's gotten down to 68 at night when it was wrapped up.
 
I heard an interview with Chris White of White Labs where he said that Saison I was intended to be used as a multi-pitch yeast with another strain. Apparently that strain doesn't always fully attenuate, and while its "Belgiany" profile is excellent, it needs a secondary pitch (I believe he recommended WLP001 or even a champagne yeast). The White Labs Saison II was specifically developed for a higher attenuation and drier finish (though it may not be a "funky" as Saison I).
 
Most of the problems with "stuck" saisons are the temps. An interview with Jamil said that you could have a saison take 3 months at 70 and three days at 85. It all depends on the temp with that yeast.
 
slimer said:
Most of the problems with "stuck" saisons are the temps. An interview with Jamil said that you could have a saison take 3 months at 70 and three days at 85. It all depends on the temp with that yeast.
Click to expand...

Maybe a heating pad is in order now that it's starting to cool down a bit here.
 
I made a Saison This summer with the intent of letting it ferment in the garage so it could ferment in the 80's. Well it only got that warm a few times. Mine got stuck at 1.020 for a while, but I just let it go. About three weeks ago I took a reading and it was finally down to 1.009. If your in a hurry do the additional yeast thing, otherwise be patient and let it go. It will get there.
 
Piotr said:
So, finally, how long was the fermentation?
Click to expand...

I've heard of them going for two months or longer. I've got no issue with letting it sit other than the fact that my whirlpool got messed up and I ended up with a ton of break material in the fermentor. I'm not sure that having the beer sit on the break for that long will be all that bad but I've just never had a beer sit for two months on that much turb and I'd be a bit concerned about off flavors developing.
 
I've got a Saison/farmhouse-ish thing in the garage now also, and am also wondering when to rack it to keg. It tastes good now(1.020), but I have to wonder what time will do. I knew I should have done 10gal!:drunk:

Anyway, what about adding a small amount of sugar water (I used Fructose from Boney's in the boil). Adding a dose of sugar after the primary fermentation settles down can kick off another round of activity and promotes the hardiest yeast, I've done this with some other brews and successfully achieved a dryer finish.
 
I had one last year that took quite a while to come down. I placed the fermenter in a tub of water with an aquarium heater and ramped up to ~83. But it did take a LONG time. I ended up shaking/swirling my fermenter once a day if I could. This seemed to help keep the beasties working. It ended up being the best batch I had done at that time.
 
Germey said:
I've got a Saison/farmhouse-ish thing in the garage now also, and am also wondering when to rack it to keg. It tastes good now(1.020), but I have to wonder what time will do. I knew I should have done 10gal!:drunk:

Anyway, what about adding a small amount of sugar water (I used Fructose from Boney's in the boil). Adding a dose of sugar after the primary fermentation settles down can kick off another round of activity and promotes the hardiest yeast, I've done this with some other brews and successfully achieved a dryer finish.
Click to expand...

I've thought about adding some more fermentables to get things going but I've not had any experience in doing so. I know that I want to get it as dry as possible. I'm still concerned about the amount of turb that it's sitting on but I want to keep it on the cake.

mZnthebend said:
I had one last year that took quite a while to come down. I placed the fermenter in a tub of water with an aquarium heater and ramped up to ~83. But it did take a LONG time. I ended up shaking/swirling my fermenter once a day if I could. This seemed to help keep the beasties working. It ended up being the best batch I had done at that time.
Click to expand...

I plan to shake it once a day to see that that does. I'll have to check on prices for a heater...cash is a bit tight right now.
 
gwood said:
I'll have to check on prices for a heater...cash is a bit tight right now.
Click to expand...

Is it in a tub of water already. That will really help buffer it through the night. You can also add a couple quarts of hot water before you clock out. That's been working well for me.
 
Germey said:
Is it in a tub of water already. That will really help buffer it through the night. You can also add a couple quarts of hot water before you clock out. That's been working well for me.
Click to expand...

It's been holding 70 at night if I wrap it up and insulate the warmth from the day time temps (which get the carboy up to 80 as of late). No water bath though.

I'm thinking of checking it in a day or two and see if there has been any movement. At those temps I would expect to see some movement in a weeks time. I might have to re-pitch if not.
 
gwood said:
It's been holding 70 at night if I wrap it up and insulate the warmth from the day time temps (which get the carboy up to 80 as of late). No water bath though.

I'm thinking of checking it in a day or two and see if there has been any movement. At those temps I would expect to see some movement in a weeks time. I might have to re-pitch if not.
Click to expand...

Hopefully. These temps can't hold much longer.
 
Do either of you guys go to the lhbs in Woodland Hills?
I about to start a Saison using WLP568. I'm going to make a 1500mL starter, but if I still need to repitch I may have to see if they carry the strain. It always seems to be a crap shoot there.
 
Fenster said:
Do either of you guys go to the lhbs in Woodland Hills?
I about to start a Saison using WLP568. I'm going to make a 1500mL starter, but if I still need to repitch I may have to see if they carry the strain. It always seems to be a crap shoot there.
Click to expand...

It's my regular shop, I'm there a few times a month. I've always found everything I need there, John seems to keep a good stock. When in doubt, give them a call and I'm sure that they'd check for you prior to you driving out from TO.

I always keep some dry yeast on hand for times like these as well. Might be a good idea to stock up being as cheap as it is. From what I've read last night, White labs actually recomends a re-pitch with a nuetral ale yeast like WLP001, 05, 1056, etc. Not sure with 568.
 
gwood said:
I assume you are using this with a glass carboy?
Click to expand...

you can use heat belts on better bottles :

. . . Use a heating belt or heating wrap with Better-Bottle Carboys? – Many winemakers and brewers do so regularly and without any problems. However, bear in mind that the upper temperature limit for Better-Bottle carboys is 60°C (140°F). Do not attach a wrap-style or belt-style heater to an empty carboy or to a section of a carboy that is not filled with liquid and apply power. The liquid may be necessary to draw away heat and prevent the surface temperature from rising too much. If you have doubts about how hot your wrap or belt is heating the surface of your carboy, slip a reversible temperature sensing strip underneath, as a check. Place the label side of the strip toward the carboy so you can read it through the carboy.


BetterBottle PET Fermenters (Better-Bottle PET Fermenters ) Bisphenol-A free (BPA-free), Di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate free (DEHP-free), plasticizer-free home brewing and home winemaking equipment
under "Can I?"
 
This has been in the primary now since 10/18 and is now down just a tiny bit to 1.016 after pitching some dry wine yeast. It's been holding at 76F but I can't seem to keep it any higher than that w/o going to some greater lengths.

Thinking about moving this to secondary in the next few days...
 
I started a Saison on 7/5 and was not able to bottle until 10/11. OG of 1.068 and it finished at 1.006 using Wyeast 3724. I was forced to transfer to secondary after less than 2 weeks to free up the fermenter so I sucked up some yeast with it. Temps were 70-80 and I think that was the big problem...if I could have heated it to a steady 85 it probably would have finished quicker. Give it some time.
 
knowltonm said:
I started a Saison on 7/5 and was not able to bottle until 10/11. OG of 1.068 and it finished at 1.006 using Wyeast 3724. I was forced to transfer to secondary after less than 2 weeks to free up the fermenter so I sucked up some yeast with it. Temps were 70-80 and I think that was the big problem...if I could have heated it to a steady 85 it probably would have finished quicker. Give it some time.
Click to expand...

Yep. I'm going to transfer it and let it sit.
 
I don't mean to piggyback onto your thread, but figured with the good Saision discussion you guys might be able to help me out.

Brewed a Saision on 08/11, with an OG of 1.072 and didn't have any problems with the fermentation as we had a warm spell and I was able to push the WLP568 into the mid to upper 80's. FG ended up at 1.009 and was bottled on 09/08. At the time I didn't think to add a neutral yeast for carbonation purposes as I thought WLP568 would be able to handle it. Flash forward to today, my Saision has some carbonation, but is undercarbed for the style. Would I be best served to open the bottles and add a dose of a new yeast, have a cake of Edinburgh Ale Yeast on-hand, with a small dose of priming sugar or should I just move the bottles to an area that is mid-70's and see what happens? Beer tastes pretty decent, but would be better with more carbonation.

Thanks in advance and I apolgize for the hijack.
 
Not to highjack your highjack operation, but...

I was wondering if it's common to run into problems with slow fermentation on saisons. I pitched Wyeast Saison almost two months ago. It crapped out at 1.042 (OG 1.060) when my basement temp crashed to about 68F. I asked about the situation here--considering the noob solution of repitching--and decided instead to throw a brew belt around the secondary and letting it warm up a bit. Over the next week the gravity fell to 1.032. I haven't checked it in a week, but I suspect it has dropped at least another 5 points. Anyway, that's a long time. It's been fermenting for almost 6 weeks.

So, is this a common issue for those who foolishly try a summer brew in the fall? Otherwise?

Back to your highjack, I had a barleywine that wouldn't carb after weeks and weeks even at reasonable temps. I opened the bottles and pitched a few drops of yeast in solution. It worked well--they carbed. But there was a lot more sediment than my other batches. For what that's worth...
 
At less than ideal temps a saison can take a long time depending on your yeast. My fermentation wasn't complete for at least 2-2 & 1/2 months. It will come down in time, just keep it as warm as you can and it will eventually get there.
 
Birchgrove77 said:
I don't mean to piggyback onto your thread, but figured with the good Saision discussion you guys might be able to help me out.

Brewed a Saision on 08/11, with an OG of 1.072 and didn't have any problems with the fermentation as we had a warm spell and I was able to push the WLP568 into the mid to upper 80's. FG ended up at 1.009 and was bottled on 09/08. At the time I didn't think to add a neutral yeast for carbonation purposes as I thought WLP568 would be able to handle it. Flash forward to today, my Saision has some carbonation, but is undercarbed for the style. Would I be best served to open the bottles and add a dose of a new yeast, have a cake of Edinburgh Ale Yeast on-hand, with a small dose of priming sugar or should I just move the bottles to an area that is mid-70's and see what happens? Beer tastes pretty decent, but would be better with more carbonation.

Thanks in advance and I apolgize for the hijack.
Click to expand...

Let em sit for a while. I've had similar issues that were corrected with time and temp.
 
Killinger said:
Not to highjack your highjack operation, but...

I was wondering if it's common to run into problems with slow fermentation on saisons. I pitched Wyeast Saison almost two months ago. It crapped out at 1.042 (OG 1.060) when my basement temp crashed to about 68F. I asked about the situation here--considering the noob solution of repitching--and decided instead to throw a brew belt around the secondary and letting it warm up a bit. Over the next week the gravity fell to 1.032. I haven't checked it in a week, but I suspect it has dropped at least another 5 points. Anyway, that's a long time. It's been fermenting for almost 6 weeks.

So, is this a common issue for those who foolishly try a summer brew in the fall? Otherwise?

Back to your highjack, I had a barleywine that wouldn't carb after weeks and weeks even at reasonable temps. I opened the bottles and pitched a few drops of yeast in solution. It worked well--they carbed. But there was a lot more sediment than my other batches. For what that's worth...
Click to expand...

Short answer is that this yeast likes it HOT and it will take a while to finish out. If you don't have both in spades, you've got to be a bit creative.
 

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