Williams Fireside Clone

I brewed a Williams Fireside Ale extract kit last year and it ended up being the best beer I'd brewed so far. I don't want to order from them again because of the cost ($45.90 plus shipping) and because I'm moving into all grain brewing and they don't offer any all grain kits. To make a long story short I want to clone this beer but they don't tell you specifically what they use in their kits claiming "kit recipes are proprietary information". All I know is this:

11 lbs of blended malt extract, a large proportion of light crystal malt was used in addition to the Maris Otter malt extract

1 oz flavoring hops
1 oz aroma hops

Wyeast Whitbread 1099

OG 1.068
FG 1.032 or less (mine was 1.030)
IBU 35
ABV 6.2%

The extract came in two bags. One large (8 to 10 lbs) and the other small (1 to 3 lbs). The large one was lighter than the small one and I assume it was the light crystal malt.

Any help you guys can give me would be great. This is an excellent ale and I would love to be able to get close to it.

That's a pretty high FG.

Does Williams make its own extract? This description makes it sound like it, though I assumed they just blended Briess extract. The kits have no grain, just extract, right?

Anyway, how abut this:

11 lbs. Maris Otter
2.5 lbs Crystal 50L (a lot, but they said so)
1 oz. EKG at 60 minutes
1 oz. EKG at 20 minutes
Wyeast 1968

But I'm really just making it up out of the blue.

EDIT: actually, for aroma hops you'd want to move it back from 20 to 0-5. Those are EKG or Fuggles. You may have to use Challenger for bittering to get the IBUs up (1 ounce EKG @ 60 won't get you there).

That's a good start but I think you'd have to switch the amounts of the Crystal and Maris Otter. I know the bulk of the extract was light crystal malt.

And no the kit did not come with any specialty grains for steeping.

Maris Otter is a base malt, so you'd have to have more of that than Crystal, which isn't. But no one makes Crystal extract, so I'm not really sure what William's is doing.

I played around with Beer Smith a little and I can get the OG and the IBU's close to what they say but there's got to be some unfermentables in the malt to cause the FG to be so high (1.030). The beer does have great body with a sweeter taste so it has to have lactose or some other unfermentable sugars in it.

Did u ever figure out a recipe that was close to the fireside ale?

No. I haven't tried the one that McGarnigle suggested because the FG was too low. I know that one of the defining features of this beer is the great body. I don't want to brew anything that doesn't come close to the FG that the kit has. Have you ever brewed it before?

I brewed this kit 6 weeks ago. It came out great but lacks the alcohol advertised. I put the amounts into brew lab but could never get it to6.2%. Mine came out with OG 1.068 and FG at 1.037 that's 3.84. They say 1.068 and 1.035 witch is not even close to 6.2. I want make this again but there out till fall plus I would like to do a partial mash and get that alcohol up. I would love to find out the amounts of Marris Otter and Crystal and what else is in this but nobody knows but Williams apparently.

I want to brew it again but I want an all grain recipe. I don't like the price of their kit.

Brew lab doesn't have lactose on the menu. So I can't plug it in to try and get the FG up otherwise I'm spot on with the Marris otter and crystal. Does anyone know what amount of lactose would increase the FG to 1.030 I'm at 1.022 now?

Stevo2569 said:

Brew lab doesn't have lactose on the menu. So I can't plug it in to try and get the FG up otherwise I'm spot on with the Marris otter and crystal. Does anyone know what amount of lactose would increase the FG to 1.030 I'm at 1.022 now?

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What are the numbers you have for otter and crystal? I'm not as close as you are.

10lbs Marris otter
2lbs 8 oz crystal
But can't get FG up. I've never used lactose or calculated it so I know nothing.

Oh 2 lbs 4 oz crystal

Just looked and Williams says light crystal and pale malt extract. So if u do it that way it's 6 lbs Marris
2 lbs 4 oz crystal
3 lbs 2 oz pale malt extract

Well I finally started using BrewSmith. Its much better than the other programs Ive been using and this is as close as I can get. If anybody has some advise the original was supposed to finish @ 1.030. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Williams Fireside Ale Clone
American Brown Ale


Type: All Grain Date: 3/9/2011
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Stevo
Boil Size: 5.72 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.25 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 70.21 %
2.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 21.28 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (50 min) Hops 15.2 IBU
2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (20 min) Hops 19.3 IBU
1.00 lb Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 8.51 %
1 Pkgs Whitbread Ale (Wyeast Labs #1099) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.067 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.019 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.22 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 34.5 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 17.1 SRM Color: Color

As you mentioned earlier, I don't see how they get an FG of 1.030 and an ABV of 6%+. Where does the 1.030 come from? The website seems to only give the 1.068 and 6.2%.

McGarnigle said:

As you mentioned earlier, I don't see how they get an FG of 1.030 and an ABV of 6%+. Where does the 1.030 come from? The website seems to only give the 1.068 and 6.2%.

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The instructions that come with it state that you will have a FG of arround 1.030. That's exactly what I had when I brewed it too.

This is a great beer and my Williams Brewery orders have all gone well, but they are full of sh#t. They told me that I didn't follow the directions and my hydrometer was probably off. I read reviews on a few of their other kits and everybody complained of lower OGs and higher FGs. Can we sue them for false advertising? Maybe I should start a F##k Williams thread. I feel like I was robbed of some of my ingredients or something.

I don't plan to buy much of anything from Williams again because they are the only online supply store that I know of that doesn't tell you what exactly is in the kits they sell. Also they shipped liquid yeast to me last summer with no cold pack, it was over a hundred degrees here in Texas. The yeast worked out but they were damaged from the temperature. I just want to brew a good clone of this beer.

I think I'll try this recipe based on McGarnigle's and see how it turns out. Ill have to wait till after my summer ale and one of my fermentors are free, hopefully in the next couple weeks. I'll let y'all know how it turns out. Oh should I use the Lactose or not? Your vote means a lot. It's a coin toss for me.

I would use it. It couldn't hurt and I think its the only way to get the FG up and have that great body that the Fireside has. That's my two cents.

Did you ever brew the recipe you had for this? I still want to try to do a clone. All my friends are asking me when I will brew fireside again and I agree, it is one awesome beer.

Well actually brewed it last night. But having problems with yeast cake not starting. Just started thread about it. Thinking about pitching notty cause witbread yeast cake has not started fermenting after almost 24 hours. Recipe sounds good though.
3 lbs Marris Otter
2 lbs Crystal 60
5 lbs extra pale LME
1 lb lactose
1 oz east Kent at 60
2 oz east Kent at 5

Well I guess I freaked to soon. I increased the temp in the basement to 70( it was about 62) and bubbling airlocks away. I jumped the gun I guess. Its just that im so used to ferm starting within 4-6 hours. Let u know in about 3 weeks how it taste. There's was good after 2.5 weeks last time. Looking forward to it. Out of 20+ batches this was the second best.

That's great news. If it turns out good I may just brew it next. What was your mash temp? I'm thinking it has to be on the high end to get some of those unfermentable sugars converted and help bring the FG up.

I mashed at 165-169. I always tried to max my efficiency. Sparged with 170. I spoke to soon about ferment. No bubbles again. I'm freakin. I never had this happen before. If ferment doesn't start within 36 hours. What do you think ?
1- pitch spare notty
2-wait another day till I can get witbread smack pack. ( Sat. the soonest I can get it)
3- wait longer

I'd wait. Sometimes it can take up to 72 hours. Check this out.

Well I kegged and force carbed two days ago. Just tried the first pint. It's not exactly a fireside but close. Of coarse it's still a little young too. I will do a side by side taste test in a about a week. Then we will see. It has a certain off taste to it that I can't quite place, but I suspect it's do to the low attenuation from not making a starter. Anyway I'll keep u updated.

I finally did my side by side comparison with my last bottle of fireside. Close but no cigar. Mine is about as sweet, but less fruity hopped and less body, less color and less head retentention. I'm thinking of doing away with the lactose and adding more crystal 60 as well as a different late hop. Will i get the same results with more crystal instead of lactose?Any addvise?

I don't know. I haven't had much experience with lactose so I have no idea how exactly it effects the mouth feel. I've about decided to try my hand at a clone for the fall. All my friends want Fireside but I can't quite bring myself to give in and buy another kit. I want to clone it so bad.

Qeelin. Long time man. Yeh mine wasn't spot on but like I said I think I'll modify the recipe and do a 2.5 gallon batch so I don't waste to much grain. I fermented a little high to so maybe that's where the off flavors came from. Let me know if you have any results or advise. Thanks

Stevo, I was looking back at your mash temp and I if that's right (165-169) I think you mashed way too hot. You may have killed some of your enzymes and that would effect the body of the beer.

Do you know what you got for the OG of the original Fireside and your first clone attempt? I've been working with Beersmith and I think you're right, William's is full of crap. There's no way their numbers are right for anything.

I've made it my mission to clone this beer!

Qeelin said:

Stevo, I was looking back at your mash temp and I if that's right (165-169) I think you mashed way too hot. You may have killed some of your enzymes and that would effect the body of the beer.

Do you know what you got for the OG of the original Fireside and your first clone attempt? I've been working with Beersmith and I think you're right, Williams is full of crap. There's no way their numbers are right for anything.

I've made it my mission to clone this beer!

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Sorry I wrote it wrong i guess. That was a partial mash. Since then I'm all All grain.
With the partial mash I held 157-159 for 60 min, then sparged at 170.
There kit 1.068 and 1.035
My partial mash 1.063 and 1.023
I guess the the lactose did help the FG a little but I'm not sure if the off flavors were from it or the higher fermentation temps. Probably the latter. Let me know when you get something. I'm in the same boat as you and hate to pay $50 for something I can make for less than $20.

Alright I got this brewing now. I modified it and am mashing high. If not a direct clone it will still be good.

Red Otter(Fireside)2
Irish Red Ale
Type: All Grain Date: 4/20/2011
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal Brewer: Sawtooth Brewery
Boil Size: 5.70 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment
End of Boil Volume 5.20 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5 gal Est Mash Efficiency 70.0 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 74.7 %
2 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2 14.9 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.5 %
6.1 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.8 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [6.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 21.0 IBUs
2.50 oz Fuggles [4.20 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 21.9 IBUs
1.0 pkg Whitbread Ale (Wyeast Labs #1099) [124.21 ml] Yeast 7 -

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.069 SG Measured Original Gravity:
Est Final Gravity: 1.024 SG Measured Final Gravity:
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.0 % Actual Alcohol by Vol:
Bitterness: 42.8 IBUs Calories: 224.0 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 16.8 SRM
Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 6.1 oz
Sparge Water: 1.28 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 170.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.20

Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 18.39 qt of water at 173.3 F 158.0 F 45 min
Mash Out Add 6.69 qt of water at 200.8 F 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge Step: Batch sparge with 1 steps (1.28gal) of 168.0 F water
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Keg Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Pressure/Weight: 12.54 PSI Carbonation Used: Keg with 12.54 PSI
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 45.0 F Age for: 30.00 days
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Storage Temperature: 65.0 F
Notes


Created with BeerSmith

That is really close. I'm not sure how well BeerSmith calculates the effect mashing at a higher temp has on the FG or the yeast attenuation. You may have done it my friend. I'd be happy with a 1.024 FG if it was close to the Fireside. Let me know how it turns out. I may brew a version of it in the next month or so. I was going to do it next but SWMBO has shown an interest in learning to brew so she's going to brew an extract Kolsch with my help. I'll do mine after that.

Happy Brewing!

Qeelin

Thanks for the confidence boost. I'll let you know how good it is in a month.

Alright guys. I did the recipe above almost a month ago. Kegged, force carbed the last three days. Still a little under carbed, but delicious. Taste just like the fireside I remember at week 4, although it's been over 8 months I think since I had the real deal. Nice aroma, finished at 1.022, residual unfermentable sweetness is there, color spot on, ABV close(to supposedly ABV), head retention lacking(probably due to under-carbed), but great nonetheless. Cheers!!!!!

That's awesome! That crystal 60 sure made it dark didn't it? I will definitely be trying this soon.

It is slightly darker, but not as dark as it looks sorry for the sh!ty phone pick with bad lighting. It is really good though, I drank several last night and got slightly trashed. It packs a punch! Your sig says you have Fireside Ale bottled, is that the Kit?

Stevo2569 said:

It is slightly darker, but not as dark as it looks sorry for the sh!ty phone pick with bad lighting. It is really good though, I drank several last night and got slightly trashed. It packs a punch! Your sig says you have Fireside Ale bottled, is that the Kit?

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Yes sir! I'm saving 3 bottles to compare with a clone.