Citra Pale Ale using late DME addition

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h22lude

h22lude

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I just got the Citra Pale Ale extract kit from AHS and wanted to tweak it a little using BeerSmith.

This is what the recipe calls for:
.5lbs Cara Pils
.5lbs Munich Malt
.5lbs Crystal 75L

6lbs Extra Light DME

1oz Citra at 60
1oz Citra at 15
1oz Citra at 5

OG 1.054
FG 1.014
Color 8.3
IBU 33.7


Here is what I did using BeerSmith
.5lbs Cara Pils
.5lbs Munich Malt
.5lbs Crystal 75L

3lbs Extra Light DME at 60
3lbs Extra Light DME at 15

.5oz Citra at 60
.25oz Citra at 15
.15oz Citra at 5

OG 1.054
FG 1.104
Color 8.3
IBU 34.9


Everything is almost identical except for IBU being a point higher. Does adding DME late in the boil really save me 2oz of hops?

Does my recipe sound right to people?
 
Well the hop flavor/aroma won't be identical since you're adding much less hops in the later additions.

But to kind of answer your question, adding malt extract late in the boil instead of right away can help you pull more bitterness out of your hops due to the gravity being lower during the boil; this increases hop efficiency.
 
I tried to keep the IBU around same which is why I lowered them all. I thought late hop additions didn't add bitterness to the beer but from the calculations on BeerSmith, they do add bitterness. If I do .5oz at 60, 1oz at 15 and 1oz at 5 IBU is 67.1 which is double what it should be.

Or does it just not add as much bitterness? .5 oz at 60 is 9.9 IBU and 1oz at 15 is 9.9 IBU. So from that it seems like it still adds bitterness but only have as much as at start of boil.

I obviously want the flavor to be the same but was trying to get better hop efficiency. I don't want it to be that bitter though.
 
In general,hops used near/at the end of the boil are usually lower % AAU varieties. That way,since you are adding some bitterness,you're not adding as much.
 
unionrdr said:
In general,hops used near/at the end of the boil are usually lower % AAU varieties. That way,since you are adding some bitterness,you're not adding as much.
Click to expand...

So since im adding all citra hops, would you recommend not doing a late dme addition and go with the regular hop addition? I don't want to lose flavor by putting in less hops at the end and I don't want to make it more bitter by doing a late dme addition with the same hop additions
 
1st,what %AAU is the citra? It's not on the freshops.com chart I use. If you use part of the DME at the start,you get more hop utilization. In other words,more bitterness,flavor,aroma than you would otherwise. But,the longer hops boil,the less flavor & aroma you wind up with.
Now,since I used a Cooper's pre-hopped can with 3.3lbs of plain (un-hoped) DME,I didn't need as much bittering. Just enough to balance the un-hoped DME with the Cooper's hoped can.
I used 1oz of Kent Golding for 15 mins to make a "tea" out of it before removing from heat to add the lot. In theory,less bittering than you'll get by using part/all of the DME to boil them in. Get it?
Just save part of the DME for flameout,& keep your additions for flavor at,say 15 & 5 mins. Or for a lil more flavor,15 & 10. That's my opinion,of course...
 
So,citra is mainly a bittering hop. For flavor out of that one,less time at the end should equal more flavor than added bitterness. 10 & 5 mins,then.
 
So would you do a late addition or just do as is? I don't want to compromise flavor of the hops and also don't want to add too much bitterness
 
I don't have beersmith on this computer so I can't check your numbers. Did you input the original recipe for comparison?

What bitterness calculator re you using. I like to use Rager. If I remember correctly Tinseth seems to estimate bittering high for late additions.

The difference between half and all the LME and all the LME is about 10% on the bittering, so something is up with your numbers. Adding the LME late makes the beer lighter.

Recommend:

Start with half the LME, and use 0.5 ozs Citra for 60 mins, f that is what you think you need (I would go with 0.75 ozs - Can't have too much bittering)

1.0 ozs at 15, and 0.5 ozs at 5.

You do not want to cut down the late additions as they give it all the flavor and aroma.
 
Calder said:
I don't have beersmith on this computer so I can't check your numbers. Did you input the original recipe for comparison?

What bitterness calculator re you using. I like to use Rager. If I remember correctly Tinseth seems to estimate bittering high for late additions.

The difference between half and all the LME and all the LME is about 10% on the bittering, so something is up with your numbers. Adding the LME late makes the beer lighter.

Recommend:

Start with half the LME, and use 0.5 ozs Citra for 60 mins, f that is what you think you need (I would go with 0.75 ozs - Can't have too much bittering)

1.0 ozs at 15, and 0.5 ozs at 5.

You do not want to cut down the late additions as they give it all the flavor and aroma.
Click to expand...

Well what I did was enter the recipe into beersmith as it was then I changed the dme addition and made the ibu to be similar which is how I came up with my hop additions. I'll try putting in your recommendation and see what the ibu turns out to be.
 
I think you're right in reducing your first hop addition, but I would leave your 15 and 5 minute addition as is at 1oz a piece. Remember that half your DME at 15 minutes, which will effectively double your gravity, which means that you'll get less bitterness from the late additions vs. the first.

Edit: With your revised recipe, you'll probably end up with a weak aroma and flavor. If you're really concerned about bitterness, I would adjust the first addition a bit lower, not the late additions.

Also, you might consider dry hopping with the left over hops from the kit. Citra is a good candidate for dry hopping.
 
rorygilmore said:
I think you're right in reducing your first hop addition, but I would leave your 15 and 5 minute addition as is at 1oz a piece. Remember that half your DME at 15 minutes, which will effectively double your gravity, which means that you'll get less bitterness from the late additions vs. the first.

Edit: With your revised recipe, you'll probably end up with a weak aroma and flavor. If you're really concerned about bitterness, I would adjust the first addition a bit lower, not the late additions.

Also, you might consider dry hopping with the left over hops from the kit. Citra is a good candidate for dry hopping.
Click to expand...

So wouldn't it be safe to say that I could reduce all three additions and dry hop? Reduce the first because of the late dme addition. Reduce the 2nd and 3rd because of the dry hopping?
 
OK. I've got BeerSmith up this time.

1 @ 60, 1 @ 15 and 1 @ 5 in 1.054 wort (assumes a 5 gallon boil) gives:

Tinseth - 72
Rager - 80
Garetz - 39

0.5 @ 60, 1 @ 15, and 1 @ 5 in 1.027 wort (this will give a higher number than you would get as it assumes the late addition is at flame-out)

Tinseth - 63
Rager - 53
Garetz - 25

I think you need to re-check your numbers. As I said previously I think cutting back to half an ounce is too much, and you would be better with 0.75 ozs. Using 0.75, 1, and 1, in a 1.027 wort, will give you:

Tinseth - 77
Rager - 68
Garetz - 35

Do not cut down the finishing hops. The hops are the main part of the beer.
 
Ok I tried something on BeerSmith and not sure if it is correct or not but it makes sense to me.

Using the hops bitterness calc I enter the recipe as they have it. 3 gallon boil, 6lbs DME @ 60, 1oz @ 60, 1oz @ 15 and 1oz @ 5 that brings the IBU to 53.5. If I change it to a 2 gallon boil, 3lbs @ 60, .75oz @ 60, 3lbs @ 15, 1oz @ 15 and 1oz @ 5 that brings the IBU to 53.

I think that is what I am going to do.
 
I made a very similar recipe. it was my favorite beer I've ever made . Can't remember the exact recipe. I'll post it when I get home. the only difference was I dry hopped with cascade. I used the late extract addition. Like I said ill post the recipe shortly
 
slicksmix said:
I made a very similar recipe. it was my favorite beer I've ever made . Can't remember the exact recipe. I'll post it when I get home. the only difference was I dry hopped with cascade. I used the late extract addition. Like I said ill post the recipe shortly
Click to expand...

Yeah that would be great so I can compare. Thanks :mug:
 
Ok, here's what I did...

Steeped 8oz carapils & 8oz of chrystal 40L in2.5 gal of water for 25 minutes. Then sparged with .25 gal of 160* water.

Brought to boil and added 6.6# of light lme

When it returned to a boil I added 2oz citra at 60

.5oz citra at 30 min

.5oz citra and 1# light dme at 15 min

After that I cooled and added to fermenter. Topped up to five gal and pitched safale us05

Og 1056

Fermented two weeks in primary

racked to secondary and dry hopped with 2oz cascade for 2 weeks

Primed and bottled.aged 2 weeks and enjoyed


Oh, fg 1012
 

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