A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
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MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
Depends on what profile you're aiming for. But if you're strictly just worried about the SO4/Cl ratio (which honestly - and no offense meant - if you didn't know/understand the scientific symbols (Ca, Mg, etc), I'd say you shouldn't be worried about this ratio too much as it would seem to be more of an advanced topic than the level you are on), then currently you're at about 1.84:1. If you increase the Cl content (without compensating by also adding even more sulfate), that will drive the ratio down, not up. If you're steadfast on hitting 2:1 and not concerned with any other additions, I would suggest calcium sulfate, as it will increase your SO4 content as well as calcium, which you have a little room to play with (Ca can reasonably be in the 100-150ppm range, though I tend to stick to the 100ppm area for most beers).
P.S. To further inform yourself on why perhaps you're barking up the wrong tree by focusing on the SO4/Cl ratio, please read this sticky by AJ detailing the nuances of this aspect of building your water.
P.S. To further inform yourself on why perhaps you're barking up the wrong tree by focusing on the SO4/Cl ratio, please read this sticky by AJ detailing the nuances of this aspect of building your water.
abbysdad2006
Well-Known Member
Thank you, no offense taken. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about different things.
MidAtlanticBrew
Well-Known Member
I think Magic meant suggesting adding calcium sulfate from the context of the rest of his post
MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
Yes, sorry, I meant gypsum (CaSo4). Updated my post to correct this.
abbysdad2006
Well-Known Member
How do you know how much to add?
Just keep playing with this water spreadsheets?
Just keep playing with this water spreadsheets?
If I use water from RO refill stations (glacier or primo, etc.) and use a water calculator do I leave all the source water values blank? (Ca, mg, so4, etc.) or does RO not strip everything out? Sorry for stupid question but having serious water issues with three failed pale ales since moving back to SW Texas with its apparently crappy desert water
rtracer
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Yes leave all as 0. I've been super happy with my results since I went with 100% RO
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So, you say test the PH of the mash. I've read that testing PH while the source is hot both shortens the life of the PH meter probe, and gives inaccurate readings. What is your experience with that? Also, if you do cool samples down, how?
Subjecting your electrode to thermal stress e.g. by calibrating at room temperature and then plunging into hot mash will indeed shorten its life but, given that ATC is working and that your electrode has spec isolelectric pH the pH readings will be correct. You will not be able to compare then to most published pH data, however, as most of that is for room temperature measurements. The italics are meant to imply that there are exceptions.
My guess is he meant hot side investment as in something he uses during the process when the wort is hot (mash and boil). My reasoning for that assumption is he said it is also good for cold side (during fermentation).
The hot side of a brewery is the part where the HLT, kettles, mash tun, lauter tun, boiler, hop back etc are found. It is the part of the brewery where the wort is hot. The cold side of a brewery is where the fermenters, filters, centrifuges, packaging equipment etc. are found. The wort chiller is the dividing line.
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Pardon me for not catching on to this, but here you mentioned doubling the gypsum. What amount am I doubling?
I'm beginning to use bru'n water, and so far I have my water report from ward labs and have tinkered a bit with the spreadsheet. I'm fairly well confused but trying to work it out. Lol.
I'm planning an American wheat, Porter, and IPA in the near future so this will help tremendously.
Double means to double the baseline amounts. That was written in the days when people fancied that they wanted insane amounts of minerals in their beers (and some still do). I consider a tsp of CaCl2 per 5 gal a lot and 1 tsp each of CaCl2 and CaSO4 way to much but in those days that's what people used. I advise half that much so the baseline would be half a tsp of each or half a tsp of CaCl2 alone if you don't like sulfate.
cheesebach
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I've been making some changes to my brew process over the past few batches to get some better consistency in my efficiency and simplify the process a bit. Unfortunately, a side effect seems to be that my mash pH (room temp) has been coming in around 0.15 - 0.20 below my target in bru'n water and I'm not sure what might be causing it.
Things that I've recently changed are:
1) Going from batch sparge to no-sparge BIAB
2) Bought a grain mill, resulting in my mash efficiency increasing by about 12%
3) Switched from using spring water (with a known mineral profile) to RO water
Is there any reason the mash pH predictions would be less accurate for a lower grain/water ratio for BIAB? Or does the fact that my grain is milled more finely for higher efficiency affect how much acid the grain is contributing to the mash? Can someone help point me to what might be happening here? I've been 0.15-0.20 low on 3 batches now: a light colored IPA, an amber, and a stout - pretty much the whole spectrum of the color scale.
Things that I've recently changed are:
1) Going from batch sparge to no-sparge BIAB
2) Bought a grain mill, resulting in my mash efficiency increasing by about 12%
3) Switched from using spring water (with a known mineral profile) to RO water
Is there any reason the mash pH predictions would be less accurate for a lower grain/water ratio for BIAB? Or does the fact that my grain is milled more finely for higher efficiency affect how much acid the grain is contributing to the mash? Can someone help point me to what might be happening here? I've been 0.15-0.20 low on 3 batches now: a light colored IPA, an amber, and a stout - pretty much the whole spectrum of the color scale.
Look at the DI pH of the grains that you are using, rather than trying to chase errors in the water chemistry calculations used. This applies to any of the water chemistry calculators that are out there.
For instance if you can find any information at all regarding the DI pH of a maltsters grain consider yourself fortunate, but keep in mind they will mostly be inaccurate anyway. Case in point when mashing 40 grams of Breiss 2-row Brewer's malt in 100ml of RO water the room temperature pH reading was 5.40.
If your water calculator lists the DI pH of 2-Row malt at 5.70 instead, as many calculators do, your readings and your calculations are already off by .30 points.
The pH estimated by a robust program or spreadsheet is the value at which the protons given up by dark grains and added as acids by the brewer are exactly equal to the protons absorbed by the less kilned grains, the bicarbonate in the water and any alkali added by the brewer. The available calculators and spread sheets do this implicitly based on malt type or color but the underlying principle is the same. If you are observing pH lower than what your program predicts then your program is:
1)Underestimating the protons released by high kilned malts and added acids
2)Overestimating the protons absorbed by the lighter grains, bicarbonate in the water and/or added alkali
3)A combination of 1 and 2.
Assuming that you are measuring pH correctly then check out a couple of the other spreadsheets to see if they give you more accurate answers or fool the one you are using into thinking the malts are more acidic than the 'factory' model by entering a lower DI mash pH if the program lets you do that or, if it doesn't, by entering a darker color.
1)Underestimating the protons released by high kilned malts and added acids
2)Overestimating the protons absorbed by the lighter grains, bicarbonate in the water and/or added alkali
3)A combination of 1 and 2.
Assuming that you are measuring pH correctly then check out a couple of the other spreadsheets to see if they give you more accurate answers or fool the one you are using into thinking the malts are more acidic than the 'factory' model by entering a lower DI mash pH if the program lets you do that or, if it doesn't, by entering a darker color.
Drk93TT
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Just wanted to pop in to thank M. Brungard , AJ and Yooper for this thread/the wealth of knowledge Ive learned over the last year as far as adjusting my water. I just recently jumped to the supporter version of BruNwater and I am very happy with it!
At first it was difficult and so much information.. with practice I have been able to brew a couple beers Im finally proud of (after 4 yrs of brewing beers that I have felt weren't good enough lol)
At first it was difficult and so much information.. with practice I have been able to brew a couple beers Im finally proud of (after 4 yrs of brewing beers that I have felt weren't good enough lol)
cheesebach
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Thanks for the suggestions here regarding the low measured mash pH I've been seeing on my recent batches. I understand the comment that the water calculators are dependent on characteristics of the malt, and that the best way to get accurate results would be to measure the pH of a sample of each malt in DI. Unfortunately, it's hard enough for me to find the time to brew as much as I'd like to, so I can't see myself taking on this task for every malt that each recipe I brew calls for. I could maybe see myself trying it for a few of the most common base malts I use, but it seems like the dark specialty malts may have the most significant impact so i'm not sure whether this would even be useful.
For now, I think I'll look for a couple of other calculators to try to see if they would have gotten me closer to my measured pH than I've been getting with bru'n water. I guess what still seems odd to me is that so many users seem to reliably be within 0.05 pH using this software, and yet I'm coming in consistently 0.15-0.20 low with a wide variety of grain bills so I can't imagine it being one specific malt type that I'm using that the software is having trouble with.
If I wanted to try to "fudge" it with bru'n water, what would be the best way to go about this? It would be easiest if I could do something to the water profile so that I don't have to increase the color of each grain by some arbitrary amount, but even changing my setting from 100% RO to DI only gets me about 0.04 closer to what I'm actually measuring. As a side note, I'm measuring mash pH at room temp with an Omega pH meter that I calibrate while I'm waiting for my sample to cool and which claims an accuracy of +/- 0.01.
For now, I think I'll look for a couple of other calculators to try to see if they would have gotten me closer to my measured pH than I've been getting with bru'n water. I guess what still seems odd to me is that so many users seem to reliably be within 0.05 pH using this software, and yet I'm coming in consistently 0.15-0.20 low with a wide variety of grain bills so I can't imagine it being one specific malt type that I'm using that the software is having trouble with.
If I wanted to try to "fudge" it with bru'n water, what would be the best way to go about this? It would be easiest if I could do something to the water profile so that I don't have to increase the color of each grain by some arbitrary amount, but even changing my setting from 100% RO to DI only gets me about 0.04 closer to what I'm actually measuring. As a side note, I'm measuring mash pH at room temp with an Omega pH meter that I calibrate while I'm waiting for my sample to cool and which claims an accuracy of +/- 0.01.
MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
You're not alone, I often find Brunwater to estimate a higher pH than what I experience. Personally BrewersFriend has been more accurate for me.
Since I started using this primer, I consistently come in .12-.17 lower than the brewersfriend mash chemistry calculator predicts. The key word is, consistently. So if you're off every brew day but it's consistently off by around the same amount, I'd just keep doing what you're doing and aim for a higher mash pH in the calculator to put you in a better range on brew day.
This is the best way but it is certainly not practical. I have campaigned (though not that vigorously) to get the maltsters to make the measurements when they are doing their Congress mashes for color but the enthusiasm has not been overwhelming.
It is much more practical to do this with a small sample of the grist for each mash. In fact all you have to do with such a test mash is determine how much acid it takes to get it to the desired pH and then scale that to the full mash size.
It is actually the base malts that have the major impact simply because they make up the bulk of the mash. The exception is the really dark beers where the specialty malts are relied upon to do what is done with acid in lighter beers.
Brewers use a wide variety of grains and Bru'n water has models that are more acidic than some and less acidic than others. What the errors turn out to be depends on the match between the models and the actual malts. Sometimes the agreement will be good and sometimes it won't.
The other aspect to this is Confirmation Bias. You want the program to work and so tend to leave the probe in the test solution or keep taking measurements over time if the reading is approaching what you want or, conversely, accept an early reading if the readings are drifting away from what you want. Confirmation Bias is very powerful and scientists who are aware of its power go to great lengths to combat it.
Indeed if you see a consistent bias then you are right to suspect systematic error which is probably not in the program itself but rather in your application of it. Are you doing the pH measurements correctly? Is there some setting in the program that is not what you think it is? You might try posting one of your interactions with it here and letting other guys who use it run the numbers too to see if they get the same answers.
I think it has already been mentioned here but if the gas gauge in your car always reads 1/4 tank high you quickly learn to pull over for a fill up when the needle approaches 1/4 full. Thus here you would simply add 0.175 to each pH estimate. I would encourage looking further for the source of the error, however.
It actually shouldn't make any difference as we assume that RO water is ion free in doing these calculations.
But how accurate is it in actuality. If you are calibrating it with the typical NIST traceable operational buffers (±0.02) it isn't accurate to ±0.01. How does it do on the stability test (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256)?
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ok peeps, got my water analysis back, brun water downloaded, and I'm confused as I can be. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction. Here is my water profile and grain bill for my upcoming American wheat.
Starting Profile ppm
Ca 46
Mg 4
Na 31
SO4 81
Cl 27
HCO3 105
PH 8.1
Hardness 131
Alkalinity 87
RA 52
SO4/Cl 3.00
Batch Volume 8.00 Gallons
Total Mash 3.50 Gallons
Total Sparge 4.50 Gallons
2 Row Pale Malt 3 lb
white wheat malt 5 lb
Crystal 40L 8.0oz
Melanoiden malt 4.0oz
Acidulated malt 4.0oz
Starting Profile ppm
Ca 46
Mg 4
Na 31
SO4 81
Cl 27
HCO3 105
PH 8.1
Hardness 131
Alkalinity 87
RA 52
SO4/Cl 3.00
Batch Volume 8.00 Gallons
Total Mash 3.50 Gallons
Total Sparge 4.50 Gallons
2 Row Pale Malt 3 lb
white wheat malt 5 lb
Crystal 40L 8.0oz
Melanoiden malt 4.0oz
Acidulated malt 4.0oz
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The "Batch Volume" is that the amount you want to end up with in the kettle? Have you also taking into account the amount of water loss due to grain absorption and dead space in you mash tun? If not you will need to at that volume to the "Total Sparge" water.
MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
I'm with TripleHopped - your water volumes don't seem to add up correctly. Batch volume should be what's in the fermenter at the end of the brew day. For me, that's 5.5 gallons usually. My mash volumes are usually around 4-4.5 gallons, and my sparge volumes between 5-6 gallons. I fly sparge though, so part of that is mash-out volume (usually 1.5-2 gallons, which leaves about 3 gallons to actually sparge with).
What's your setup like? Batch or fly sparge? Are you in the NOLA area? If so I can possibly help you out with this more in depth, possibly even in person.
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I'm using a 15 gallon kettle and 15 gallon mash tun with manifold, batch sparge. I'm actually not in NOLA, north Dallas. This is going to be my 3rd batch on the current setup with all grain. I think I need to tinker with Bru'n water a little bit, because that did seem like a little less water than I'm used to using.
MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
I threw the recipe into BeerSmith and it calls for 11.65qt (call it 3 gallons) in the mash (thickness of 1.25qt/lb), and 5.25 gallons sparge. Now this is setup for my system, 5.5 gallon batch with a 1 gallon/hr boil off rate, and I fly sparge. I'm sure you'll want a thinner mash (3.5g sounds good).
So how are you planning to use this Primer? Are you going to dilute down as suggested?
So how are you planning to use this Primer? Are you going to dilute down as suggested?
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So how are you planning to use this Primer? That is a good question, I just want to get my PH where it needs to be to improve my all grain brewing. my target is Dusseldorf since there were probably a few Hefe's brewed there, and the profile listed is pretty close to mine as is. You can see my PH is a little low, needs to be 5.3-5.4. My magnesium could go up a bit, and my bicarbonate could come down a bit. Of course, I'm stabing in the dark here.
I wouldn't use a Dusseldorf profile for a Hefe. It's a bit more mineralized than I would think would work well. The boiled Munich profile should work better and it's representative of much of Southern Bavaria. That's where a lot of Hefe's are brewed.
I like having the ability to change DI pH values in my brewing water software. I also enjoy doing my own DI pH mash testing; for the grains used in my recipe. As A.J. has kindly pointed out there are two shortcomings with this approach. First, dark colored grains do not always have a higher acid content than light colored grains, most of them do but there are exceptions. Second, attention should also be paid to solving for the buffering properties of the malt too when doing a DI pH test.
I continue to wrestle with the calculus needed to arrive at the first coefficient a1*(pH-DIph) . For now I will have to be satisfied with plugging in the DI pH value, without including the grain buffering component in the equation. That way I will at least be able to catch wide variances, between the software's default grain DI ph values and those that I test and measure myself.
The process I use calls for 40g of finely crushed malt, mixed in with 100ml of RO water and then heated to 122F. A sample is later pulled and cooled down to 68F after 20 minutes of mashing. The pH value of the sample is then entered into the software as the actual DI pH value of the grain. Lacking the skills to arrive at a more precise value at the moment I am continuing to learn a great deal about this process with every post that I read. Thank you for sharing your expert knowledge here everyone.
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Thanks mabrungard, that makes complete sense.
so if I go that route, I'm looking at about 55% dilution with RO to get my concentrations to where the profile is reasonably close. I'm not going completely that direction, just want to be in the ballpark.
Onerow
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Going blind and losing sleep reading this thread from the beggining. After page 35, decided I had a handle on it and brewed a 3 gal batch of Yoopers Pale Ale.
Maris Otter 43.6%
Vienna 27.1%
Munich 10L 18.1%
Crystal 20 4.6%
Crystal 60 4.6%
Acid malt 2%
5 gal DI water total
- except screwed up and added the salts to 4 gals and didn't catch it till starting to sparge.
New Milwaukee M102 pH meter calibrated and my first time ever measuring mash pH.
readng: 5.28pH@RT :30 5.22pH@RT end of mash.
Sooo, I added per the original post, 5g Cacl, + 3.6g Gypsum, except I added it to 4 gal instead of the intended 5gal. Plus,
now I have jumped to the end of this thread and find that the baseline recommended is now 1/2 the original salts...Sigh...
Any opinions on how screwed up this Pale Ale will be?
BTW, my first attempt at water and pH control and am very pleased to have found AJ's Primer to get me on the way.
Maris Otter 43.6%
Vienna 27.1%
Munich 10L 18.1%
Crystal 20 4.6%
Crystal 60 4.6%
Acid malt 2%
5 gal DI water total
- except screwed up and added the salts to 4 gals and didn't catch it till starting to sparge.
New Milwaukee M102 pH meter calibrated and my first time ever measuring mash pH.
readng: 5.28pH@RT :30 5.22pH@RT end of mash.
Sooo, I added per the original post, 5g Cacl, + 3.6g Gypsum, except I added it to 4 gal instead of the intended 5gal. Plus,
now I have jumped to the end of this thread and find that the baseline recommended is now 1/2 the original salts...Sigh...
Any opinions on how screwed up this Pale Ale will be?
BTW, my first attempt at water and pH control and am very pleased to have found AJ's Primer to get me on the way.
I can't believe we are discussing DI pH and buffering in the Primer thread but as we are I'll point out that one must have a value for the grain buffering coefficient (at least the linear one). In another thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7841949#post7841949 No. 57) I discuss how incorrect DI pH causes larger errors than incorrect buffering so I'd suggest continuing to measure DI pH whenever you can and just use -40 mEq/kg•pH for a.
Having done what you describe here you simply repeat the process but this time you add a wee bit of acid to the warm water, wait 20 minutes and measure the pH. Since we expect that it will take about 40 mEq of acid to lower the pH of a kg of malt by 1 we'd expect it to take 40/25/10 = 0.16 mEq to lower the pH of 40 grams (1/25th kg) by 1/10 of a point. The challenge here isn't the calculations. It getting 0.16 mEq of acid to add. Obviously the best way to do this is to buy 1 N (1 normal) hydrochloric or sulfuric acid from Hach (or some other supplier) and measure out 0.16 mL. That in itself may be a challenge but an insulin syringe should do the job.
If you add 1 cc of 88% lactic acid to 100 mL of DI or RO water you will have a solution that is pretty close to 0.1 N so you would use 1.6 mL of that in order to get 0.16 mEq.
Add that acid to the mash water, wait, and measure pH. Then
a = .16/(pH_shift/25) = 16*25/pH_shift = 4/(pH_shift)
If the malt is typical the pH shift will be about -0.1 and a about -40.
The beer will obviously be more minerally than you might like but other than that will probably be OK.
With that much colored malt you do not need quite so much acidulated malt as you have seen. Next time try 1% or even none.
A.J. Thank you once again for having the patience to explain this in greater detail. After reading your reply this morning I have come away with a much clearer understanding of, what I call, the elusive first coefficient.
Insulin syringes are legal for sale over the counter here and I plan to pick some up. I would imagine that adding 1 cc of acid, using a syringe, is more accurate than adding 1 mL acid using a baby medicine dropper.
I will prepare the acid solution, made from 1 cc of 88% lactic acid, mixed in 100 mL of RO water, as you suggested. Each mL of the acid solution will then contribute 0.10 mEq of acid when added to the test mash. I have spent a least 4 or 5 hours unpacking all of the information that you have provided today. Just to be sure, I understand the process to go like this.
Take the first DI pH mash sample @ 20 minutes and record it as, lets say 5.70.
Add 1.6 mL of acid solution, take a second DIpH reading 20 minutes later and record it.
Subtract the second reading from the first reading and record it as pH_shift.
Did you reduce the 40 mEq to 4, in order to use it as a = 4/(pH_shift) ?
Regarding "If the malt is typical the pH shift will be about -0.1 and a about -40"
What if the pH shift is different, say a is -38? Would that indicate that I should restart my testing using -38 mEq/kg•pH for a instead of using -40 mEq/kg•pH for a?
a is the mEq required to effect a pH change of 1 unit per kg of malt. Forty grams is 1/25 of a kg. So if you get a pH shift of dpH on 40 g mash with 0.16 mEq of acid you would need 25 times that much for a kg. 25*.16/dPH = 4/dpH. If the pH shift is 0.1 then a = 40. if it is 0.05 then a = 80 etc..
Thank you again A.J., I seem to have it. I had confused the 40 g of malt used in the test mash, with the 40 mEq of acid needed to lower 1 kg of malt by 1.0 pH unit. The two are completely separate. I now see how you reduced .16*25/pH_shift to simply 4/pH_shift.
I picked up a 1mL and a 5mL plastic syringe at a local drug store. When stored in an airtight container, how long do you think the 1 N acid mixture will keep once I make it?
I picked up a 1mL and a 5mL plastic syringe at a local drug store. When stored in an airtight container, how long do you think the 1 N acid mixture will keep once I make it?
All I can say on that is that I found a bottle of 88% lactic acid that I bought years ago and it had turned dark so it doesn't last for ever. I really have no feel for what reasonable retention time might be but I'd think at least a year.
