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Koryb

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Got a newbie question here for you all........

I have only brewed a couple of batches, so I am wondering why the kits start with 2.5gallons to boil, and then adding the remainder of the water after you chill the wort. Why can't you boil all 5 gallons at the same time, provided you have a large enough kettle? Plus wouldn't that solve the OG reading issues that some people deal with? Any input is appreciated.

Thanks
 
You certainly can do a full volume boil on an extract brew. This will change some hop attenuation for low ibu beers, but for the rest, sure.

Better yet, follow the recipe, add dme as called for, and add the LME at flameout. It will be better.
 
Yes, if you have a large enough pot and a method to cool 5 gallons quickly (about 25 minutes or less) than a full boil is advantageous. I'm guessing the instructions for many extract kits assume that their average customer doesn't have the equipment to do a full boil. Don't underestimate how long it takes to cool 5 gallons of boiling wort. A wort chiller, or plate chiller are pretty much a necessity unless you're okay with using a very large ice bath and carrying a pot of boiling wort around.
 
Most kits are not meant to wow you. The goal of a kit is to make things as simple as possible while still providing semi-decent results. Additionally, a lot of stores make a profit off of kits because it is an opportunity to clear their older inventory of less fresh ingredients. This explains why many kits often contain LME and pellet hops. LME spoils quicker and the quality of old pellets can easily be hidden as opposed to old leaf hops.

If you want a truly excellent beer, then implement a full volume boil and assemble your own recipe, or at least get advice about recipe building on this forum or in brewing books. There is nothing wrong with Extract beers, but I would only use fresh Extra Light DME as a base. I personally find Partial Mash - Brew in Bag brewing to be the easiest method whilst still providing excellent character and overall results. All-grain is a bit more complex, but not too much - You will save the most money in the long run, especially on ingredients, but the upfront equipment cost can be steep.

Why can't you boil all 5 gallons at the same time, provided you have a large enough kettle?

One thing you should realize is that evaporation occurs during a vigorous boil... usually at the rate of 0.75 to 1.25 gallons per hour of boiling time. So boiling 5 gallons would leave you somewhere around a 4 gallon batch.

Plus wouldn't that solve the OG reading issues that some people deal with?

It would be much easier to get right, but that is not to say that some brewers may still have problems reaching their target OG. Many factors come into play.
 
As for now ( as I am still a rookie) I think I will keep it as simple as I can. However, the current batch I have in the fermenter, is one that I put together with hand picked ingredients, not from a kit. I like this method so far, but unfortunately I don't know the boil times. Is there a method to figure this out? Ad does it vary per different styles of beer?
 
You can even start with more than 5 gallons since you will end up boiling off over a gallon or two during your 60 min boil. The main reason these kit instructions have you start with only 2.5 gallons is because they are assuming you might be a beginner and may only have a small brew kettle, like 4 gallons. Another main reason is trying to cool 5 gallons of hot wort without a wort chiller would take a long time!

Bottom line is they are just making it as easy as possible and they are assuming that you might not have all the brewing equipment an experienced brewer might have.

If you can do a full boil and cool it fast, that's the way to go!
 
The problem with kit beer instructions is they use the same instructions for different styles of beer. Use the instructions as guidelines and read up on how to brew that style. The older Jamil shows on the Brewing network are a good resource and well as this forum.
 
Another thing to remember is time. Bringing 5+ gallons to a rolling boil on a kitchen stove will take some time, if at all.
 
I used to have an electric stove and could keep 5-6 gallons of water at a vigorous boil. Presently, I have a gas stove and I can do the same thing. The only difference was that the gas stove got me there quicker, but both stoves kept a vigorous boil.

There are many factors that can influence a vigorous boil. Other than BTU output and elevation, you have kettle material, kettle measurements, and whether or not you use a tight fitting lid to bring the initial water to a fast boil. You don't want to use a lid when boiling the wort, just to bring the plain water to temperature.

For boiling times, the typical time frame is a 60 minute boil. And 90 minute boils for anything using pilsener malt to drive off DMS.
 
As for now ( as I am still a rookie) I think I will keep it as simple as I can. However, the current batch I have in the fermenter, is one that I put together with hand picked ingredients, not from a kit. I like this method so far, but unfortunately I don't know the boil times. Is there a method to figure this out? Ad does it vary per different styles of beer?

For an extract batch, the boil time is just based on the hop utilization for the bittering addition. The difference between the IBUs produced between 60 and 90 minutes is minimal, so most kits have you boil for an hour. However, if you're building your own hop schedule, you could knock that back considerably if you don't mind using more hops. Depending on style, I'd even consider combining the bittering and flavor additions and shoot for a 30 minute boil. If you post up the recipe you're considering, we can help you figure it out.

If you go all-grain, though, there are other factors - namely DMS - that pretty much require you to boil for 60 minutes or even longer.
 
I used to have an electric stove and could keep 5-6 gallons of water at a vigorous boil. Presently, I have a gas stove and I can do the same thing. The only difference was that the gas stove got me there quicker, but both stoves kept a vigorous boil.

There are many factors that can influence a vigorous boil. Other than BTU output and elevation, you have kettle material, kettle measurements, and whether or not you use a tight fitting lid to bring the initial water to a fast boil. You don't want to use a lid when boiling the wort, just to bring the plain water to temperature.

For boiling times, the typical time frame is a 60 minute boil. And 90 minute boils for anything using pilsener malt to drive off DMS.

I'm assuming he's using extract. In that case, DMS isn't a problem and neither a vigorous boil nor an extended boil are required.
 
I basically said the exact same thing about DMS that you said above so why did you feel the need to call me out?

I don't know what kind of extract beers you're brewing, but my past extract IPAs always had a 60 minute boil. It is not only a matter of hop isomerization and utilization.

Boiling wort longer also:

*Stops enzymatic activity
*Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
*Evaporates undesirable harsh oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters.
*Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars
*Helps to lower pH
*Aids clarity
*Lessens issues during fermentation
*Helps to provide maltier flavor
*Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity
 
Most kits are not meant to wow you. The goal of a kit is to make things as simple as possible while still providing semi-decent results. Additionally, a lot of stores make a profit off of kits because it is an opportunity to clear their older inventory of less fresh ingredients. This explains why many kits often contain LME and pellet hops. LME spoils quicker and the quality of old pellets can easily be hidden as opposed to old leaf hops.

I have to call bullpoops on this. A lot of stores work really hard to develop kits that will wow you. These same stores move through so much LME it would make your head spin, and it isn't about getting old product off the shelf. I don't know where you are shopping, but I have not seen this to be true from any of the larger well known vendors that are online.

It is true that LME has a shorter shelf life than DME once opened, but with the amounts these stores are going through it isn't an issue.

I think the assumption that using LME and hop pellets in kits to unload bad product is a horrible one.

I will also say that I have had friends that have gotten medals in comps using kits. As long as the kit is fresh, and your process is good, kits can make amazing beer.
 
Bob,

I didn't mean to "call you out," just provide a clarification. If you're using extract, it's already been through the equivalent of several hours of boiling, so all of the additional benefits you listed are already in place. All you need to do is get it hot enough to sterilize the wort and utilize the hops.
 
I beg to differ on both accounts...

@nanofreak

First of all... Quality is subjective.

I find "most" (not all) kits to range from crap to decent and I'm not alone in this belief. The problem with most kits is the use of older, near stale ingredients and instruction to top off with 2-3 gallons of water after the boil. I've worked in a homebrew shop before so I know a little bit about the ins-and-outs regarding kits. Everything has an expiration date (other than Twinkies and Astronaut Ice Cream) even if sealed and unopened.

Have you read Ray Daniels' book? In the beginning, he talks about the results of a well-respected homebrew competition with pretty high standards. They featured extract, partial mash, and all-grain beers. Not one single extract beer won the first place award in any category. I don't even think they won second or third place if I recall correctly. There was no clear difference however between partial mash or all grain beers. This is not to say you can't brew a good extract beer. But according to Daniels, and me, they usually won't beat out PM or AG... especially if the brewer used a basic kit instead of assembling his own recipe. You don't win awards for mediocrity.

@gr8shandini

I've brewed extract , partial mash, and all-grain. I've boiled extract worts at various time frames. My best extract beers always were closer to a 60 minute boil, exclusive of hop utilization. Not ALL of the additional benefits are already in place. Even though the DME has already been previously boiled by the manufacturer, Extra Light DME is not generally boiled for hours on end since it is so light and is typically pure base malt, maybe with a little carapils. It has little character and has not had a chance to meld with hops, concentrate, develop melanoidins, and become something new by the homebrewer who uses it.
 
I am not talking about the size of the boil, just the freshness of ingredients and quality of kits. I have a friend that took a gold with a stout from one of the larger vendors kits (done as full boil) where the comment was "really nailed the style" from the judge.

I think the blanket statement you make about kits containing crap and near stale ingredients is frightening, and irresponsible. It appears you worked for a ****ty homebrew shop, I wont argue that, but taking what your employer did and saying thats what all kits are, once again I call bullpoops.

Perhaps Austin Homebrew could chime in about how they package their kits, I know they are at times active on here.
 
The point is that a homebrew shop, big or small, is a business. And a business looks into maximizing profits and minimizing product waste. Sure, they can sell you older ingredients regardless if you buy a kit or not. But the beginning homebrewer will almost exclusively buy pre-made kits, and they are too naive to know any quality deterioration as opposed to an advanced brewer. Beginners are mainly expecting something drinkable, not utterly mind blowing. Plus, kits made by the larger companies are usually pre-made in large amounts. So they very well may have assembled them months, or in some cases, years ago.

There may be some select employees with the authority to do whatever they want who put their heart into the kits they assemble, but this is rare... especially since many kits are advising hack procedures about partial boils and what not. Even supermarket employees and Chefs are advised on FIFO (First-In-First-Out)... you get rid of your old ingredients first by putting them in the front of the line.
 
The point is that a homebrew shop, big or small, is a business. And a business looks into maximizing profits and minimizing product waste. Sure, they can sell you older ingredients regardless if you buy a kit or not. But the beginning homebrewer will almost exclusively buy pre-made kits, and they are too naive to know any quality deterioration as opposed to an advanced brewer. Beginners are mainly expecting something drinkable, not utterly mind blowing. Plus, kits made by the larger companies are usually pre-made in large amounts. So they very well may have assembled them months, or in some cases, years ago.

There may be some select employees with the authority to do whatever they want who put their heart into the kits they assemble, but this is rare... especially since many kits are advising hack procedures about partial boils and what not. Even supermarket employees and Chefs are advised on FIFO (First-In-First-Out)... you get rid of your old ingredients first by putting them in the front of the line.

I have to say, as a beginner, I have been reading these forums for a couple of months now and what you have said in this thread seems to be against what most people say on these forums.

I think what you are failing to grasp, and what has been said already, is that the larger stores have such a large turnover of their kits that basically all the kits are fresh. And I have never heard that partial boil is a "hack procedure."
 
To each their own. As long as you are content with your beer's quality that is what matters. I've provided an alternate viewpoint with plenty of support. Choose your side. It doesn't matter to me.

In closing, you have no factual data on the turnover rate for the tons of DME/LME on hand, or how frequently it is made for every semi large to large homebrew shop.
 
In closing, you have no factual data on the turnover rate for the tons of DME/LME on hand, or how frequently it is made for every semi large to large homebrew shop.

Of course not. But neither do you have data to show that the extract has been sitting for a long period. It is on the brewer to do some research into their homebrew shop. You wanted to paint with a wide brush, and some of us challenged that assertion.

I just find it odd that you are on a beginner's forum trashing partial boils with extract via kits. I know its your opinion, but what kind of reaction did you really expect?
 
I've worked in a homebrew shop before, as previously stated. Business is business, and turnover matters. You will never sell an exact 1,000 lbs. of DME and LME every month. Some months it will be 394 lbs. Some months it will be 2,354 lbs. There will be carry-over of product that nears or goes beyond it's recommended use date. Pre-assembled kits are perfect to fill that void.

Lastly, this isn't about trashing. It's about providing an alternate viewpoint. Neither myself or my friends have ever experienced wowing results with extract kits assembled by the vast majority of suppliers. This may be due to many, many reasons. But it is still true in our experience. Period. End of story.
 
What may have been true for your shop isn't true for all shops. I don't generally buy kits, but both of my go-to suppliers (Northern Brewer and Annapolis Home Brew) treat kits the same way they would someone coming in with their own recipe and the ingredients get pulled from the bulk supply whenever they're ordered. They're no more or less fresh than the stuff everyone else is buying.

I'd agree, however, that if your LHBS has a bunch of dust covered pre-packaged kits on the shelves, I'd ask them to duplicate the recipe from fresh stock. If they wouldn't do that, I'd go elsewhere.
 
As for now ( as I am still a rookie) I think I will keep it as simple as I can. However, the current batch I have in the fermenter, is one that I put together with hand picked ingredients, not from a kit. I like this method so far, but unfortunately I don't know the boil times. Is there a method to figure this out? Ad does it vary per different styles of beer?

One thing you can do with respect to boil volumes is simply boil a large pot of water for an hour and see how much you lost. That will give you a ball park figure of how much extra you need to add before you boil. For example, I was brewing up a Blanche de Chambly earlier this week. I wanted to end up with about 5 gallons. This recipe doesn't use steeped grains so I don't need to worry about volume of grain water. I started off with about 5.75 gallons and to that I added 5.5 lbs of DME which will affect the overall volume as well. When I finished and poured into my fermenter, I need to add about 1/2 qt of water to get the required volume. I didn't just guess at 5.75 gallons, I figured it out from previous boils which is one reason you should keep good notes about your brews. Ultimately I want to not need to top off at all but 1/2 qt isn't too bad, especially when you consider I was topping off with 3 gallons when I first started, and then with about 1.5 gallons once I switched to full boils but didn't know my boil off rate.
 
One of my LHBS makes up their kits fresh every day. That's great but I don't know how fresh the ingredients are. I have seen them working away, milling the grains for the kits but again, that doesn't mean the grains are fresh. Given the turnover, as evidenced every time I am in the store, I would have to think the ingredients are pretty fresh. But how fresh are the ingredients when they take delivery of them? A few unknowns but I feel happy with what I have had so far.

The other LHBS I go to goes through a lot of LME and I believe the barrels are purged with nitrogen. They pack into oxygen-safe bags which, according to them, keep the LME fresh for up to 2 years....but I would never put that to the test.
 
I do have a sanke keg that I will convert to my brew kettle, and I have the capability to boil on a big burner that can handle the 5+ gallon boil.i also have a super wort chiller that I made out of 50 feet of copper tube, it currently cools my 2.5gallons to 70 degrees in about 7-10 minutes. I was thinking about getting the beer smith software but still unsure at this point about purchasing,what do you think about that?
 
I'm a big fan of Beersmith, but that's just because it was the program I first started using. Other software you might want to check out is ProMash or Brewtarget (which is actually free). I don't know if they still do it, but Beersmith offered a 30 day free trial when I first bought it. It couldn't hurt to download it and un-install later if you don't like it.
 
I'm a big fan of Beersmith, but that's just because it was the program I first started using. Other software you might want to check out is ProMash or Brewtarget (which is actually free). I don't know if they still do it, but Beersmith offered a 30 day free trial when I first bought it. It couldn't hurt to download it and un-install later if you don't like it.

They still do it, I am running the trial right now.
 
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