"Nothing that can hurt you can live in beer"- Confirmed!
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MichaelBrock
Well-Known Member
I find these arguments completely convincing. But the statement does need to be qualified to "None of the pathogens we are aware of are able to live in beer". That makes quite a bit more sense that the suggestion that merely because something could hurt you it couldn't live in beer.
This is cheating! If you define beer as "a beverage that can't hurt you" then of course it can't contain something that can hurt you! :cross:
I agree. The blanket statement that "NOTHING that can grow in beer can harm you" really twists my noodle. Sure, there are no peer reviewed studies that demonstrate harmful pathogens surviving in beer, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
As a scientist, it really annoys me when people interpret negative results as proof of no effect/no finding. Negative results do not mean there is no difference/change. They mean you did not observe a difference, nothing more, nothing less. That's a pretty big difference, IMO.
A more statement would be "It is highly improbable that anything that can grow in beer can harm you." I understand it doesn't assuage fears as well as saying NOTHING in beer can hurt you, but it's the most appropriate way to make your point.
BetterSense
Well-Known Member
Aren't there mycotoxins that live in Barley that are super-mega lethal? I heard that from a pro brewer once.
Yeah, have you not read anything in this thread? Mycotoxins have been covered above.
homebrewdad
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the awesome insights given here. Sadly, you won't put the silliness to bed, because it is, in fact, silliness... and not rooted in facts.
homebrewdad
Well-Known Member
And then, there are these kind of posts. Why even bother to post informative, thoughtful replies, since so many people never bother to read them, anyway?
Chris7687
Well-Known Member
What do you all think about this... Do you think this could harm ya? I tasted, did not swallow, the beer it was sitting in. Poured out the beer as it was rancid. Found this at the bottom of the jug. It was a "spontaneous " fermentation.
Yes but as it was answered above, we control the mycrotoxins at the source - Malters test for them and won't take the grain if it has over a certian level (and that level is much lower than the level that would cause symptoms). So sure, once before we used modern testing this was more an issue, although at that time, so was Cohlera, and I'd take beer over water, knowing what I do about water born diseases. -read 'the Death Map' for how Cholera was isolated and wiped out in modern cities, begining with London of 1860's - one of the groups who didn't get sick from that particular outbreak were the brewers who were allowed to drink their product during their break, and thus avoided the local waters.
The most app thing to say would be that while at some point in history there were perhaps some more hazards to drinking beer, 1 modern production makes it very safe (asside from the eythel alcohol poisoning) and 2, it was most likely safer than the alternatives in the distant/not so distant past.
OP btw, pretty cool article. I'm currious to know if it is the PH, the alcohol, the hops or some other aspect that makes the beer inhospitable.
What do you all think about this... Do you think this could harm ya? I tasted, did not swallow, the beer it was sitting in. Poured out the beer as it was rancid. Found this at the bottom of the jug. It was a "spontaneous " fermentation.
The GREATEST scientist (as far as brewing is concerned) Louis Pasture* showed 'spontanious' generation of life doesn't happen. I'd guess there was a problem with sanitation.
Was your rancid beer poisonous? or just nasty flavored? Well does it matter? It was unpalatable and thus undrinkable. Still on the question of 'could it kill you' I'd hazard a 'no' only because you'd not drink such foul tasting beer (you described as 'rancid').
* Louis Pasture dabled making rabbies vacine. Most of his real work was persuing how beer and wine fermented and how to control bacteria - Pasturization of milk.
TheLastDamnBatch
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Some interesting information in this text - search for it on google books:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=0306467801
Another interesting paper:
http://www.europeanbreweryconvention.org/PDF/AC%20PR%20Survey%20mycotoxins%20final.pdf
Chris7687
Well-Known Member
Definitely had sanitation problems with this beer. I know it couldn't just ferment on it's own without and organism helping it along.
HIlife
Well-Known Member
Cole RJ, Dorner JW, Cox RH, Raymond LW. Two classes of alkaloid mycotoxins produced by Penicillium crustosum thom isolated from contaminated beer. J Agric Food Chem. 1983 May-Jun;31(3):655-7. PubMed PMID: 6886222.
Abstract: An apparent natural human intoxication resulted from consumption of beer contaminated with Penicillium crustosum. Under laboratory culture, the P. crustosum isolate produced two classes of toxic alkaloids consisting of roquefortine [10~-(l,l-dimethyl-2-propenyl)-3-(imidazol-4-ylmethylene)-5a,lOP,11,11 a-tetrahydro-2H-pyrazino [ 1,2:1,5] pyrrolo[ 2,341 indole- 1,4( BH,GH)-dione], roquefortine A (isofumigaclavine A) (Sa-acetoxy-6,8P-dimethylergoline), roquefortine B (isofumigaclavine B) (6,8@-dimethylergolin-9a-o1), and festuclavine (6,8P-dimethylergoline). Samples of the beer were not available for analysis.
Excerpt from introduction: This study was prompted by a clinical case that apparently resulted from a natural intoxication of a 44-year-old Caucasian male who consumed some commercial beer that was contaminated with a large mycelial mass of the fungus identified as Penicillium crwtosum (Figure 1). Approximately 4 h after consuming the contaminated beer (approximately 30 cm3 consumed), the individual became actuely ill with a throbbing frontal headache, feverish feeling, nausea, vomiting, diplopia, weakness, and bloody diarrhea. After 12 h, handwriting was illegible due to tremor. The symptoms prevented eating and other activities for approximately 30 h. After this time all symptoms disappeared and no apparent residual effects were noted. Five other family members and five visitors shared the evening meal but did not consume any beer and had
no symptoms.
I'm also a molecular biologist and it bothers me when people use absolute phrases when the absolute isn't true. I fully agree with plastering big banners everywhere saying NOTHING IN BEER IS GOING TO HURT YOU, because all of us get quality starting materials. Saying that it is impossible for toxin carryover from grain to beer is, however, an incorrect statement. Apparently the mycotoxins from lolium temulentum would carry over into beer in Western Europe in the 1200s that would get you super
(from Brewing Microbiology). Just to reiterate: Anyone who is afraid that their homebrew or any commercial brew is going to get them sick is uninformed at best, and doorknob stupid at worst. It is, however, possible to have nasty stuff in finished beer.
TheLastDamnBatch
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Amen. Can't remember where I read it, but a certain article described the tradeoffs between governments acknowledging the wheat/corn/barley infections and disposing of the grain vs. subduing the fact and letting the grain be processed (relaxing the standards). Go hungry and/or raise the price vs. take chances on infected grains. In other words what levels of these substances are safe (as determined by the various governments).
The question then becomes do GMO crops become the norm? (vs organic, etc...) GMO strains of corn, wheat, barley, have higher resistance to mycotoxins, fungal infections and pest damage.
I personally malt a lot of my own barley, corn, wheat, rye and oats for brewing. They are obtained from an organic bulk foods store. I know there is fusarium and other molds/fungus in some lots of the grain. I do my best to remove the infected kernels and don't really worry about it. I've never gotten sick from my beer. What the long term effects are I don't know, but then again, I only have 1 - 2 beers a week (sometime not even that) and regularly take a B and C vitamin complex.
Understood.
Full disclosure. I am*NOT* in the medical or biological research fields as a profession. I'm in IT.
However, I directly work with & support those who are, so their attitudes & techniques have more than rubbed off on me.
LOL.. well not at this, but I was trying to remember what BOFH was... and then you said the bit about IT and I remembered... BOFH lol....
homebrewdad
Well-Known Member
Cole RJ, Dorner JW, Cox RH, Raymond LW. Two classes of alkaloid mycotoxins produced by Penicillium crustosum thom isolated from contaminated beer. J Agric Food Chem. 1983 May-Jun;31(3):655-7. PubMed PMID: 6886222.
Abstract: An apparent natural human intoxication resulted from consumption of beer contaminated with Penicillium crustosum. Under laboratory culture, the P. crustosum isolate produced two classes of toxic alkaloids consisting of roquefortine [10~-(l,l-dimethyl-2-propenyl)-3-(imidazol-4-ylmethylene)-5a,lOP,11,11 a-tetrahydro-2H-pyrazino [ 1’,2’:1,5] pyrrolo[ 2,341 indole- 1,4( BH,GH)-dione], roquefortine A (isofumigaclavine A) (Sa-acetoxy-6,8P-dimethylergoline), roquefortine B (isofumigaclavine B) (6,8@-dimethylergolin-9a-o1), and festuclavine (6,8P-dimethylergoline). Samples of the beer were not available for analysis.
Excerpt from introduction: This study was prompted by a clinical case that apparently resulted from a natural intoxication of a 44-year-old Caucasian male who consumed some commercial beer that was contaminated with a large mycelial mass of the fungus identified as Penicillium crwtosum (Figure 1). Approximately 4 h after consuming the contaminated beer (approximately 30 cm3 consumed), the individual became actuely ill with a throbbing frontal headache, feverish feeling, nausea, vomiting, diplopia, weakness, and bloody diarrhea. After 12 h, handwriting was illegible due to tremor. The symptoms prevented eating and other activities for approximately 30 h. After this time all symptoms disappeared and no apparent residual effects were noted. Five other family members and five visitors shared the evening meal but did not consume any beer and had
no symptoms.
I'm also a molecular biologist and it bothers me when people use absolute phrases when the absolute isn't true. I fully agree with plastering big banners everywhere saying NOTHING IN BEER IS GOING TO HURT YOU, because all of us get quality starting materials. Saying that it is impossible for toxin carryover from grain to beer is, however, an incorrect statement. Apparently the mycotoxins from lolium temulentum would carry over into beer in Western Europe in the 1200s that would get you super
Just to reiterate: Anyone who is afraid that their homebrew or any commercial brew is going to get them sick is uninformed at best, and doorknob stupid at worst. It is, however, possible to have nasty stuff in finished beer.
I stick by my claim that real world issues don't exist, but kudos to you, sir - you are literally the first person I have ever seen cite an actual source of an actual person getting sick from beer.
Seeing as how I vaccinate my kids - and there are a few hundred cases of allergic reactions to vaccines every year, some of which cause death - where the number of documented issues is many magnitudes higher than this one example (but still statistically less than significant), I'll continue to assume that beer is bulletproof.
But congrats, you have shown that the risk is >0 in a non lab situation, which is more than anyone else I've ever seen do.
johnsnownw
Well-Known Member
Hey, I'm also an archaeologist. Got to love experimental archaeology.
HIlife
Well-Known Member
To be clear, this statement is still correct. In fact, the only places where there seems to be semi-dangerous levels of mycotoxins in beer are in Africa. I'd also wager that the beer is much safer to consume than the corn or sorghum that it's made from. If the beer has anything nasty in it, the grain has something REALLY nasty in it.
No matter how bad you are at making beer at home, your beer will be safe to drink.
Interesting point of fact, the beer has nothing LIVING in it... the mycotoxins pre-exist and thus there is a breakdown in health before the brewer has done anything... And in Africa, it isn't the grain I'd fear, I would more fear the water. (which is what beer is the main replacement for).
So this comes down to the 'if your supply chain is good, your beer you make will be ok.' And while random crap might sneak in, there are checks to prevent it. When was the last time malt was recalled? compared to imported fruits? (tomato, strawberries, etc).
Well, if you crap in your beer then drink it you deserve to get sick. Infact gravity should just let go of your ass. Berma Shave
RainyDayBrewer
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Are there cheap/easy ways to test for mycotoxins? It would be satisfying to do my own malting, but want a quality organic grain source.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Yeah, depending on your personal definition of cheap and easy. You can do some ELISA testing at home.
https://www.mybiosource.com/elisa-kits
OR
You could accept the fact that the FDA regulates mycotoxins in food sold for human consumption. Do you feel the need to test for mycotoxins when you buy bread, noodles, breakfast cereal, etc? Why is this any different?
UV flashlight will check for aflatoxin, and fusarium will gush when poured....(don't drink the gushers! i learned that the hard way!)
and a UV flashlight is pretty cheap.....
unlike brewing, in malting sanitation is important, but it's still safer then eating chicken from what i can tell....
edit: holly jessus, 2013?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Do you have a scientific reference that this method works for screening barley?
no, just saw them use UV for corn to check for aflatoxin in a whiskey documentary.....but i did look more into it...forget what i read now, and i got gusher fusarium thing from some homebrew article about malting....and i drank a gusher i thought was just over carbed for two days, and the next morning my liver was in pain, and blood work confirmed...it was ****ed, nothing a little proper food didn't cure for me after a month though....
My reason for looking into this issue is I wanted to brew this weekend but have a virus of some sort. I'm only worried at the point of chilling.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I don't think that it works for barley, especially barley that had been dried at a "high temperature".
Fact:
Human viruses do not grow in wort or beer.
There are a lot of different kinds of viruses (HIV, Hepatitis B, RSV, influenza, norovirus, etc), so the best general advice I can give is:
Wash your hands after using the restroom and don't bleed or vomit into your wort or beer.
Thanks Doc. I'm an avid hand washer. On with the Hefe!
i just use a box fan at room temp....before i throw it in the oven....got to lock the enzymes up before kilning...otherwise you'd be making crystal malt...
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I'm just pointing out that you're suggesting a method to test for aflatoxin on barley with no scientific basis (at least none that I could find).
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Which says a lot about the quality of advice on homebrew forums.This is probably the soundest piece of advice I've ever seen on a homebrew forum.
i would just 'assume' if it works on corn, it'd work on barley.....don't know for sure, i really don't even check each batch of malt i do. but i have to yield at this point..
(i just read that UV just detects kojic acid anyway, and is a poor test even for corn....)
thanks for the enlightenment...but fusarium does cause gushers right??
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I'm not by any means an expert on testing for aflatoxin either, but I did skim a couple articles. UV light (BGYF) does seem to be a good test for screening corn. It has a high sensitivity but low specificity, so any positive result requires further testing (it still might not be contain toxins).
For barley on the other hand there is no literature for BGYF screening and one scientific article suggested that it isn't useful for barley and most other grains.
About fusarium and gushing, I really don't want to read a bunch of articles about it. Fusarium can produce proteins called hydrophobins that cause gushing. Is that a good indicator of fungal contamination with this genus? Maybe. There are definitely other possible causes of gushing, so it's not a specific indicator.
Does the level of hydrophobin in the final beer always correlate well with the level of toxins produced by Fusarium (e.g. fumonisin B1 or B2)? We need the answer to that question before recommending gushing as a good way to screen whether the beer may have Fusarium toxins.
Hope this makes sense
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
IDK. Exposure to significant levels of mold toxins is a risk you run when malting your own grain... and you've already gotten sick from toxic exposure so it's not an insignificant risk. Also a lot of mycotoxins are carcinogenic so they could be doing damage even though you may not get acutely sick (you probably wouldn't see elevated LFTs/transaminases for example).
If you want to avoid this risk you wouldn't have to stop drinking, just stop malting.
I'm not saying you should stop. It just comes down to how comfortable you feel with the level of risk vs the level of benefit.
If you want to avoid this risk you wouldn't have to stop drinking, just stop malting.
I'm not saying you should stop. It just comes down to how comfortable you feel with the level of risk vs the level of benefit.
i like the taste...(i smoke cigarettes too)
