muench1
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I've been wondering for some time now, if you could buy good GF malted grain for partial- or all-grain brewing, what would you be willing to pay? I'm talking about real malt, comparable to barley malt.
What would you pay for real GF malt?
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thanantos
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This is hard to say as I have never brewed all grain before. My understanding of conventional, glutenous, all grain brewing is that it's cheaper, but much more to time consuming.
So my calculation would be based on extract brewing. Can I make a 5 gallon batch for under $50? If so, I'm in. If not, I would really have to weigh the cost to quality provided.
So my calculation would be based on extract brewing. Can I make a 5 gallon batch for under $50? If so, I'm in. If not, I would really have to weigh the cost to quality provided.
frothdaddy
Well-Known Member
Since GF malt must be produced in smaller quantities, I'd pay a 10-15% markup from the normal grain bill from a barley based beer. This is just economy of scale, so I don't see why it should cost substantially more. The hard cost of the grain isn't that much more, and the malting process is the same.
ChasidicCalvinist
Well-Known Member
I am far more interested in a greater availability of gluten free LME and DME than I am in using malted grains.
muench1
Well-Known Member
That's sooo much harder and so much further out. Making base malt is relatively easy, and having a spare set of equipment for it is relatively cheap. Malt extract is so much more intensive. I suppose once the actual malt is out there and available, some company will start making extract when they think they have enough demand. If I could get the full range of extracts like we have of gluten grains, I would definitely be buying a lot of it.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
I don't see malted amaranth being commercially feasible. I might be off base here, but those are some tiny seeds to be fussing about with.
muench1
Well-Known Member
I can only imagine it being commercially viable as an extract from a manufacturer set up to deal with it. Then again, the barley brewers must look at millet and quinoa and think we're insane.
lehr
Well-Known Member
Have you ever read the article by Charlie Papazian where he uses clari-ferm to drop the gluten from beer ? The article states as long as you dont use wheat it will drop the gluten to acceptable levels.
Pat
Pat
I am not a celiac but have not been able to drink real beer for years. I can however drink gf beer with no problems.
I brewed a pumpkin ale last fall using clarity ferm and it turned out great.
I tried one and got a reaction so I wrote off the clarity ferm as not working.....friends and family have drank most of the beer.
Well I mistook one of the cf pumpkin beers for a gf beer on sat and drank one of the few that are left after nearly a year of aging. The beer was amazing and did not bother me at all.
I am going to try another one this week....makes me wonder if more of the gluten is removed with more age when using clarity ferm.
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Or tried aging beer made with. Clarity ferm
I brewed a pumpkin ale last fall using clarity ferm and it turned out great.
I tried one and got a reaction so I wrote off the clarity ferm as not working.....friends and family have drank most of the beer.
Well I mistook one of the cf pumpkin beers for a gf beer on sat and drank one of the few that are left after nearly a year of aging. The beer was amazing and did not bother me at all.
I am going to try another one this week....makes me wonder if more of the gluten is removed with more age when using clarity ferm.
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Or tried aging beer made with. Clarity ferm
ChasidicCalvinist
Well-Known Member
You got that right. I bought 4lbs of amaranth, used 3 of them and I don't know what to do with the last pound. What a PITA those little guys were!
Teff is even smaller and CO Malting has done that.
muench1
Well-Known Member
Yeah I talked to Jason about that. He really doesn't know how it'll turn out or how worthwhile it'll be.
The base malt isnt the problem, sorghum extract is a great base. Its the accessory malts you want. With the ability to add 1 or 2 #'s of crystal, black malt etc makes all the difference. I just posted some comments about this under the recent clarity ferm post. Have a look.
Yeah, specialty malts would definitely be more worthwhile, I think. Just having a range of caramel/crystal malts would be fantastic, as these are difficult to make at home. For the gluten-free homebrew market, I think crystal malt's the way to go, since the conversion is already taken care of and you can just steep the grains.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
As long as you don't mind the taste.
Its not the sorghum that gives it that metallic taste, its the yeast not having enough nutrients. Add some DAP Di-ammonium Phosphate and ferment it at the correct temp and it will be good. Its a bit dryer than Barley Malt, but with a few adjuncts its quite good, the darker beers are on par with non GF beers.
DAP really makes the metallic flavor go away? But I thought the main reason to use sorghum is because it's high in FAN (which is all DAP adds, in terms of yeast nutrients)? And why don't rice-based beers have that twang, considering that rice is even lower in FAN than sorghum?
Another (questionable) explanation I heard was that sorghum is really high in iron, but that also doesn't make sense, because molasses is really high in iron and does not add a twang, either.
Another (questionable) explanation I heard was that sorghum is really high in iron, but that also doesn't make sense, because molasses is really high in iron and does not add a twang, either.
Northern Brewer (http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/nb-sorghum-syrup.html) has used their sales volumes to influence Briess into packaging some specialty LMEs for them recently, including Organic LME, Rye LME, (most recently) Marris Otter LME, and yes: Sorghum LME (see link above).
Standard GF alternatives to specialty barley malts are mostly easily handled - they just need more research/documentation into how much and in what combinations will approximate particular specialty malts. Molasses, treacle, and GF chocolates can give "roasty" flavors. Caramel syrups or caramelizing your own sugars can approximate crystal malts. The tough zone is the "toasty" flavors (such as those from Biscuit, Vienna, Munich, Aromatic, etc. malts) - the fact is that the gluten in breads and grains is fairly important for the development of the Maillard "toasty" flavors. A proportioned mix of the previously mentioned roasty/caramel additives can be the solution - but would require a fair amount of trial-and-error.
muench1
Well-Known Member
Mostly for people who turn up these threads while searching for info, I'd like to point out that that product is NOT malt extract. It is sorghum extract, from unmalted grain. Malt extract is concentrated wort. Currently the only source for consumer GF malt extract are the bard's tale extract kits.
Really? They should point that out more clearly in their product description. They describe it as sounding like it's equivalent to their other LMEs (all of which they have labelled as "syrups" and are made by Briess):
If it is essentially a fermentable 1.037 sugar from a sorghum base that includes proteins and amino acids, what are the missing components as compared to a true extract? Could this be supplemented with particular yeast nutrients/energizers to get the full effect of LME?
Sorry mate, it ain't that easy. I've tried just about every combo of sugar-based GF adjuncts, and they just can't match the flavor of grains. I routinely calibrate my taste buds by taking small sips of real non-GF beer, just to keep myself from thinking too highly of my own GF brews, and there is a depth of flavor as well as a difficult-to-describe mouth feel that I just can't achieve with extracts and sugar syrups. There's a sort of chewy nuttiness to barley beers that I have been totally unable to duplicate with extracts, even with the addition of steeping grains. Roastiness is the only flavor I can realistically replicate, which is why my stouts are always my best beers. But for lighter beers, I've given up on the extracts and syrups as anything but an easy way to boost gravity, and am now working on ways to utilize grains as the direct source of fermentables.
To be honest, I'm not even sure if that will do it; I've tried Green's beers that use malted gluten-free grains and no extracts at all, and while they're much better beers than the extract-based alternatives, they are still noticeably thin and lacking in that chewy mouth feel. It could just be the styles, but even the amber is not too far off, taste-wise, from what I can achieve with sorghum and rice extract and candi syrup. I just hope I can do better, because if I can't, I might have to throw in the towel.
Also, Briess is very forthcoming about the unmalted nature of their sorghum extract. Taken directly from their website:
After neglecting some malting millet and it going into the bin (smelling like the toilet in a bachelor pad after a curry night), can I change my response to this survey to the maximum $5/lb?
Expensive, but my wife would happily see me pay that instead of listening to my temper tantrums and swearing. To clarify, nothing directed at her or anyone else around, but I still behave worse than our 2 year old when stuff like that happens. I cry on the inside though... mostly.
In the meantime, I'll invest in flyscreen and timber and make a semi-decent, user friendly malting setup.
Expensive, but my wife would happily see me pay that instead of listening to my temper tantrums and swearing. To clarify, nothing directed at her or anyone else around, but I still behave worse than our 2 year old when stuff like that happens. I cry on the inside though... mostly.
In the meantime, I'll invest in flyscreen and timber and make a semi-decent, user friendly malting setup.
muench1
Well-Known Member
The bottom line is it is not made of malt, although it is chemically processed in a way that mimics malt. Malt extract is when you make a big batch of wort and remove most (liquid extract) or all (dry extract) of the water. True malt extract requires you to take grain, malt (and kiln) it, mash (and sparge and lauter) it, and then boil it down.
Sorghum syrup has some good things going for it, and until we really have GF brewing figured out at a more advanced level, it's still a useful tool. It does make yeast happy; yeasties don't know it's not barley. We can taste the difference (and most opinions range from grudging acceptance to outright hatred), which is why using it for all or most of your fermentables is generally not a great plan. Until I have a better solution, I often toss in a little bit with the idea that it should help round out my flavor profile and reliably boost my gravity a tad. Mashing GF grains isn't a very exact science, and hitting my OG target isn't realistic for me yet, so a certain level of adjunct sugar gives me a little more precise control, and a very slight sorghum twang should disappear into the overall flavor profile if I did a good job.
FWIW, I e-mailed Briess suggesting that they offer some GF oat malt in the future, and their response is that that's basically impossible for them unless they build a dedicated malt-house. Which makes me think that malt from Colorado Malting Co. probably can't ever be used in a commercial GF brewing operation, unless it turns out that tests for hordein and gliadin are sufficiently medically reliable (and beers made from CMC malt can pass such tests). It actually makes me wonder about the commercial viability of grain-based commercial GF brewing, since most of the millet, quinoa, buckwheat, teff, and rice out there isn't necessarily certified "gluten-free". One encouraging thing in the Briess response was that apparently they are still actively researching more gluten-free syrup options. So maybe in the future we might see some millet or buckwheat syrup, or some amber or dark sorghum syrup? That would be great.
thanantos
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Igliashon, I had the same thought about Co Malting and truly gluten free grains. I even addressed it in my email. Sadly, I got no response. Maybe that's why?
I am happy to hear Briess is still working on more varieties of gluten free extracts. I had previously written sorghum syrip off, partly anyway, but I am going to play with using DAP and see if my results get any better.
I am happy to hear Briess is still working on more varieties of gluten free extracts. I had previously written sorghum syrip off, partly anyway, but I am going to play with using DAP and see if my results get any better.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
Isn't that sort of like certifiying those grains as "cholesterol-free"?
muench1
Well-Known Member
CMC takes gluten-free grain and malts it in a dedicated tank, so it is supposed to be gluten-free.
Most GF products are 1.5-2x the cost of regular ones, however remember we are buying in bulk here vs at the supermarket (where they gouge)... so $3/lb for base millet malt (2-row) would be fine and other specialty roasts at $4/lb? Also Light and dark roasted Buckwheat would be great as well, maybe for $4/lb...
A theoretical IPA with 10lb base millet and 4lb crystal would cost me around $55 at those costs, which I think is great. A sorghum beer costs around $46, but I'd rather have the millet one.
I've mentioned this before, but the guys at Snowman Brewing in Toronto have convinced me that millet is probably the best grain for GF beer. Their beers were pretty close to real beer, their Belgian Triple had a wonderful malty flavour, very close to a real trappist ale (way better than green's). And their brown ale was amazing! Millet wheat-beer's sound good too. This guy made one and won an award.
I haven't seen a beer with the same malty character/mouthfeel that igliashon is describing... is it the same character as DFH's 60min IPA? I think it's the maris otter malt... I think crystal millet might work but I can't test that as I can't get usable millet here yet...
Also whats this about DAP? Is it in fermaid K? I saw that and at the last minute decided to throw in 2tsp of yeast nutrient this time, will that do the trick?
A theoretical IPA with 10lb base millet and 4lb crystal would cost me around $55 at those costs, which I think is great. A sorghum beer costs around $46, but I'd rather have the millet one.
I've mentioned this before, but the guys at Snowman Brewing in Toronto have convinced me that millet is probably the best grain for GF beer. Their beers were pretty close to real beer, their Belgian Triple had a wonderful malty flavour, very close to a real trappist ale (way better than green's). And their brown ale was amazing! Millet wheat-beer's sound good too. This guy made one and won an award.
I haven't seen a beer with the same malty character/mouthfeel that igliashon is describing... is it the same character as DFH's 60min IPA? I think it's the maris otter malt... I think crystal millet might work but I can't test that as I can't get usable millet here yet...
Also whats this about DAP? Is it in fermaid K? I saw that and at the last minute decided to throw in 2tsp of yeast nutrient this time, will that do the trick?
powmonster
Active Member
I agree that a true brew experience with GF can only come from grain. I don't know exactly what Greens is doing that they can't make a better product (especially with such a hefty price) because, as you pointed out, they are brewing from grain. I have one batch of IPA I believe is a "good beer" not just for being GF, I have a belgian and hefe style on the way... I am new to brewing and grain brewing and my effeciency sucks so far, but it has improved since that IPA and I have read that 95% can be attained... I also don't know max ppg for these grains (teff, millet, buckwheat, oats, rice), so that is another issue, one which can be solved if you have grains to brew from! Let me know if you want to exchange notes on GF AG brewing.
powmonster
Active Member
I don't think that is true. Found 3 barley grains in just 1 lb of a 5 lb bag in my recent order of buckwheat from them. Not a big deal for me, but I think that proves that they just don't have the capacity in their establishment to dedicate much of anything to their GF offerings. Furthermore, they specifically have stated this to me and their website and emails state they can't guarantee 100% GF. I don't wish to speak poorly of them, I think they are on the right track, but establishing a new and refined offering to fit very specific needs as a small operation is really hard to do.
powmonster
Active Member
I just bought 45 lbs from CO Malting Co, paid $116 w/ shipping to Denver from Alamosa (not too far)...
With my current efficiency (not good) I would need about 10lbs grain for 5 gallon batch of 5.0% abv beer. About $30 for grain for that batch. + 1.8 lbs rice hulls + yeast + hops... Not bad. Right now I brew 2.5-3gallon batches until I get better and develop good recipes/practices.
Based on Andrew Lavery's PDF on GF brewing, he gets about 95% efficiency using almost 7 lbs of grain in a 4.5 gallon batch. In this example he used:
Grain Bill:
6lbs Pale millet malt
5.25oz Crystal millet malt
5.25oz Munich millet malt
All ground to a flour... for a Pale Ale recipe.
Oops, Snowman brewing must have been referring to the amount of wet grain (before malting and drying) when they said 17lbs of grain... So it was $3/lb regardless of roast type, and takes about 10lbs of base? Then that means my IPA would cost 9+3*10+3*4=$51, awesome!
So how much malty character have other people been able to achieve with millet? Do you guys think I could successfully make one of those nice malty IPA's? The malt character I noticed from the millet beers i tried is fading in memory now (also they weren't IPAs), but I recall that it was a vast improvement over sorghum...
powmonster
Active Member
Millet by itself probably won't achieve the maltiness you're looking for but maybe the mash can be altered to provide you more of that, maybe compromising a little of the efficiency. Try it and find out. My IPA was a mix of malted ingredients: millet, red millet, sorghum, buckwheat and then I spiked it with rice syrup solids to get the gravity up to an appropriate range for an IPA. Came out well, but not as malty as it could have due to rice syrup solids, sorghum and my inexperience.
muench1
Well-Known Member
Hmm, that's unfortunate. Talking to them I got the impression that it was being separated properly, but they just hadn't gotten somebody to come certify it yet. They have indicated that they plan to certify; I can only assume that they're trying to get their practices in order first.
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