Dunkelweizen

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DeRoux's Broux

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okay, i was all ready to get my stuff for an Alt, but a brew bud wants to do side by side brews to compare my style (AG, starters, controled ferm temps) to his (extract/specialty grain, no starter, no controled ferm temps). so, we've decided on doing a dunkelweizen.

has anyone done a decoction mash for a weizen? any noticable difference compared to infusion mashing? i''ve done infusion on my past weizen's, but wanna blow his extract/grain away, so i want to try it to see if i can eek out every malty edge on him. :D we're gonna use same yeast, hops, ect. mine will just be AG.

and, out of curiosity, what is your prefered weizen yeast? WL or Wyeast, and which strain? i've only used the WL Hefeweizen strain.....
 
I'm using the Weihenstephan strain at the moment, but I'm still a few weeks away so nothing useful to say. Wouldn't a lighter style such as a regular hefe be more instructional as to the differences than a dark style? Although a dunkelweizen isn't exactly a stout/porter, I suppose.

Oh yeah, the airlock smells like a bubblegum shop, though I've been 66-70 the entire time, and mostly towards 66.
 
BeeGee said:
I'm using the Weihenstephan strain at the moment, but I'm still a few weeks away so nothing useful to say. Wouldn't a lighter style such as a regular hefe be more instructional as to the differences than a dark style? Although a dunkelweizen isn't exactly a stout/porter, I suppose.

Oh yeah, the airlock smells like a bubblegum shop, though I've been 66-70 the entire time, and mostly towards 66.

what do you mean by "more instructional" BeeGee? :confused:

the only difference in the dunkel as opposed to a regular hefe is some munich, crystal, chocolate, and maybe some special B. has more of a bready taste that balances w/ the clove/banana of the yeast. yummy yummy!

i think your in the perfect range for the Weihnenstephan yeast (from what i've read)...
 
i also wanted to ask this:
if i do a decoction for the dunkelweizen, could i use 4 lbs. German pilsener malt rather than 4 lbs. 2-row for a more authentic flavor, or would that be too malty sweet?
 
I just meant that dark beers tend to obscure flaws and 'muddle' flavors sometimes, but then opined as I continued my diarrheal typing that perhaps the phenomenon wouldn't really apply as much to a wheat beer.

Yeah, I think I'm in the range, so hopefully it's just odor and the flavors will be well balanced. I used 5#pilsner and 5#wheat...as I understand it pilsner is the correct grain to use for the style, but I haven't tried a decoction mash so can't speak to that. When I've used melanoidin malt I've found it adds a "malty" sweetness as opposed to a sugary or cloying sweetness if that makes any sense to you...I'd go for it! Will you be doing protein and sacc. rests? Seems like I remember reading something about not letting the protein rest go too long as you do want the proteins for the style.
 
BeeGee said:
I used 5#pilsner and 5#wheat...as I understand it pilsner is the correct grain to use for the style, but I haven't tried a decoction mash so can't speak to that. When I've used melanoidin malt I've found it adds a "malty" sweetness as opposed to a sugary or cloying sweetness if that makes any sense to you...I'd go for it! Will you be doing protein and sacc. rests? Seems like I remember reading something about not letting the protein rest go too long as you do want the proteins for the style.

yep, makes sense. i think maybe just a 20 min protein rest. i'm goona stick my nose in some of my books and see if i can find some specifics for the dunkelweizen decoction mash, times, temps, etc. may just go w/ a generaic single decoction? nice to know about the pils malt. i'll make that change for sure.....
 
Just kicking around on the web it looks like as many or more recipes use 2-row as pilsner malt. A few even used Munich in place of 2-row or pilsen, so who knows? For some reason I thought traditional hefes (not necessarily dunkels) were pilsen and wheat.
 
i flipped through Designing Great Beers and he said a good hefe starts w/ good 2-row and wheat malt. but i think the pils or munich would make a better, more traditional brew (for the obvious reasons).

we need some of theses weizen-heads to post up!
 
BeeGee, didn't find much else, but i did order the Classic Beer series book German Wheat Beers. don't know how goodit is, but i found it on amazon for $5 used. won't be here before i brew it, but another for the library. my HBS said it's out of print though?????
 
DeRoux's Broux said:
BeeGee, didn't find much else, but i did order the Classic Beer series book German Wheat Beers. don't know how goodit is, but i found it on amazon for $5 used. won't be here before i brew it, but another for the library. my HBS said it's out of print though?????
Guess that's going to make you the resident weizen-head? That's a great score if it's actually out-of-print. Is it listed as a reference in Daniels' book for the wheat beer chapter? I'd be curious to see the side-by-side recipes when y'all get ready to brew. Your buddy may be limited in what types of extracts he can acquire (such as pils).
 
this is his:

dunkelweizen


Medium dark, slightly sweet, with overtones of bananas & bread
5 1/2 lbs. wheat malt extract
1/2 lb. dark malt extract
1 lb. wheat malt grain
1 lb. six-row pale malt
1/2 lb. German dark crystal malt
3/4 oz. German Perle hop or German Northern Brewer(bittering 60 minutes)
1 pkg. Safbrew T-58(or Wyeast #3056, #3068 or White Labs German Hefeweizen or Hefeweizen IV Yeast)
1 pkg. Bru-Vigor (yeast food)
3/4 cup corn sugar for priming
O.G. - 1.052 -- F. G. - 1.013

still tweaking mine a bit :~)
 
here's mine (so far!):

Esel tretend Dunkleweizen

6 lbs German Wheat Malt
5.5 Lbs German Munich Malt (8)
6 oz Carafa Malt
4 oz Special B Belgian Malt
2/3 oz Hallertau Northern Brewer pellets @ 60 min
Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen Yeast (or White Labs Hefeweizen IV)
1.062 OG SRM 19.6 IBU's 23.7

almost more like a Weizenbock ......
 
nah, more like comparing the total control and manipulation of all-grain as opposed to the more limited extact/specialty grain. plus my ability to control ferm temps. but, i keg, and he bottles, so that'll make a difference too. so, i guess the only thing similar is the style :~)
 
man, i've never used that Weihestephan Wyeast before. that sucker makes a kraeusen! it's going ape-poop. trying to keep it around 68, but it hovering around 71-71.

had the Hacker-Pschor Dunkel. not too crazy about that one. so far, the Aventinus is the best. hope doing the double decoction helps mine?
 
DeRoux's Broux said:
6 lbs German Wheat Malt
5.5 Lbs German Munich Malt (8)

DeRoux's Broux,

Did you have problems with the starch conversion? I see that the only diastatic grain you have is the Munich (or is is the Wheat diastatic too?) and Munich may not have enough enzymes to take care of the wheat as well.

Just asking.

Kai
 
Kai said:
DeRoux's Broux,

Did you have problems with the starch conversion? I see that the only diastatic grain you have is the Munich (or is is the Wheat diastatic too?) and Munich may not have enough enzymes to take care of the wheat as well.

Just asking.

Kai

i had brain farted. i had 6 lbs German Wheat, 5 lbs German Pilsner, 3/4 lb Munich, .5 lb German Dark Crystal.

everything seemed to work fine. the activity and the kraeusen has started to fall off a bit, right at 70 degrees.
 
Yeah, I just transferred my hefe using the Weihenstephan yeast to secondary tonight...it had a kooky kraeusen, as well, and left all kinds of kraeusen-lets crusted around the edge of my fermenter. I think I'll harvest it tomorrow.

Mine got up to 70-71 and was really banana-y and bubblegummy until I could get it back down around 68. However, when I sampled it tonight I thought it had a nice balance.
 
Man, I love it when a Weizen comes together...:drunk: I've been drinking them since Feb '75.

Here's a poem I just made up:

Pils and Pale Ales, too bitter for my tastes,
Bocks and Dunkels, are nice in the right place,
But my call, in summer or winter, (is)
"Fraulein, noch eine Weizen, bitte!"
 
homebrewer_99 said:
Man, I love it when a Weizen comes together...:drunk: I've been drinking them since Feb '75.

Here's a poem I just made up:

Pils and Pale Ales, too bitter for my tastes,
Bocks and Dunkels, are nice in the right place,
But my call, in summer or winter, (is)
"Fraulein, noch eine Weizen, bitte!"

that brought a tear to my eye HB 99!:drunk:

BeeGee, when i open the chest freezer the banana almost knocks you out! i got it back down to 69 and she's a bubbl'n every 8 seconds. i'll also have to do some scrubbing on this carboy. nice gunky ring too...

my og was too high for a regular dunkel, but too low for a weizenbock. oh well, i'm not complaining. just hope the 1st double decoction doesn't prove to be a bust :eek:
 
DeRoux's Broux said:
that brought a tear to my eye HB 99!:drunk: ...i'll also have to do some scrubbing on this carboy. nice gunky ring too...
Thanks.

Why scrub? I just soak it (fill it up w/hot water) overnight. Most of the time the ring is gone by morning. I do run a sponge over it to make sure.:D
 
had to move my dunkel in from the chest freezer in the garage. temp got down to 62 , and activity had fallen off to about min, w/ 3/4" of kraeusen still on top. brought it inside, and kicked right off to every 5 seconds. kraeusen has thickend some more too. i just thought i was racking it tomorrow : ^ (
 
My hefe with the weihenstephan yeast was at 66 or so for the bulk of the fermentation and it took dang near 2 1/2 weeks. It certainly seems to have a narrow sweet spot in terms of fermenting strongly but not smelling like bubble yum!
 
BeeGee said:
My hefe with the weihenstephan yeast was at 66 or so for the bulk of the fermentation and it took dang near 2 1/2 weeks. It certainly seems to have a narrow sweet spot in terms of fermenting strongly but not smelling like bubble yum!

yep, mine too. back at where it belongs. 2.5 weeks! guess i'll push back my next brew-day!:rolleyes:
 
BeeGee said:
Yeah, I just transferred my hefe using the Weihenstephan yeast to secondary tonight...it had a kooky kraeusen, as well, and left all kinds of kraeusen-lets crusted around the edge of my fermenter. I think I'll harvest it tomorrow.

Mine got up to 70-71 and was really banana-y and bubblegummy until I could get it back down around 68. However, when I sampled it tonight I thought it had a nice balance.

BeeGee, mines still goin' ape-sh*t! activity every 5 seconds with a 3/4-1" kraeusen on top. it's at 71 degrees......11 days and counting.....:confused:
 
Mine wouldn't stop! Literally took weeks. I collected a ton of yeast from it, too. Is yours really bubblegummy? Mine smelled like it, but when I racked it it tasted pretty balanced and really more banana-y than bubblegummy.

I've also got a Schneider-Weisse in the fridge. Next time I brew I'm going to drink it and feed the bottle a little wort and see what happens. I'd love to clone that one.
 
no, not really. it's got the banana thing going, but not REAL strong. no bubblegum aromas coming out. it doesn't have much sediment at the moment. maybe 1/4"? mine was a bit higher in gravity too. more like the Aventinus Weizenbock. so that could have something to do with the extended fermentation too. was yours a higher gravity wheat?
 
Not at all...I can't remember off the top of my head, but I hit the clone of Weihenstephan in Beer Captured within a point. I think it must have been around 1.050 or so. It's just the little yeast that could.
 
The OG for the Weihenstephan clone was 1.053.

My Franzi clone, which used WLP300 took 13 days in the primary at ~68F, and my dunkel using the same yeast took 11. I just think that particular yeast strain is kind of slow.
 
All this talk makes me want to go home, siphon it into a keg, crank up the CO2, and shake the hell out of it! Only I could plan to have a stout in once keg and a hefe in the other with only one CO2 regulator between them...:rolleyes:
 
El Pistolero said:
The OG for the Weihenstephan clone was 1.053.

My Franzi clone, which used WLP300 took 13 days in the primary at ~68F, and my dunkel using the same yeast took 11. I just think that particular yeast strain is kind of slow.

i didn't realize you used the same yeast EP. good info from both you guy's. now i know it's the yeast!

EP, which one again was the dunkel? and the hobgoblin? :D
 
if i could find the Aventinus here rather than in Houston, i'd be in trouble jack!!! i'd go for the SW or the Aventinus.....
 
DeRoux's Broux said:
i didn't realize you used the same yeast EP. good info from both you guy's. now i know it's the yeast!

EP, which one again was the dunkel? and the hobgoblin? :D
The sixteen oz bottle is the dunkel, the twelve oz hooch is the Wee Heavy, and the Lamar St. cap is hobgoblin.
 
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