1.030 FG curse

Evening HBT.

On my third extract brew, a Belgian dark ale, I seem to have run into a stuck fermentation. It's a 1.072 OG that I had in primary for 1 week at 65f. I racked it off to a glass carboy and kept it at 65 for another 2 weeks. The gravity seems to be stuck at 1.030.
Considering I will be bottle conditioning, what do I need to do to either bottle now without risk of over carbing (it tastes good now and I could live with a lower ABV), or get it to attenuate down to the yeasts full potential?

I used two vials of WLP540 (74-82%) and made a 1 liter starter. So my expected FG should be between 1.012 and 1.018. My method of pre pitch wort aeration is as follows...while my wort is immersion chilling, I counter flow stir for approx 20 minutes. I believe this helps to oxygenate as it produces a nice amount of froth. When it's fully chilled, I dump the kettle into my ferm bucket, and then back again several times.
I racked to secondary after a week mainly because I used pureed raisins in the recipe and didn't want the beer sitting on this trub too long. As I've been reading, this step probably wasn't necessary, and doing it too early may have caused my problem.
I did save and wash the yeast when I racked. Should I repitch? Should I add some nutrients before doing so?
I did raise the temp two days ago to 74 to try to stimulate the yeast, but no measurable changes yet. The airlock does have some very slow action though.
Would I be able to bottle at this point? I assume the yeast will still go to town on dextrose, but I'm obviously wary of over carbing.

Ideas?

The best you can do is get some wlp099, make a starter and be prepared to wait a month for it to come down. I don't mean to sound like a ******, but this kind of this is exactly why I brew all grain. You'd have no trouble at all getting that beer down to 1.010. The super high gravity yeast should be able to handle it though, it just takes a while.

bottlebomber said:

The best you can do is get some wlp099, make a starter and be prepared to wait a month for it to come down. I don't mean to sound like a ******, but this kind of this is exactly why I brew all grain. You'd have no trouble at all getting that beer down to 1.010. The super high gravity yeast should be able to handle it though, it just takes a while.

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Waiting for this one doesn't bother me. It's more of a fall/winter style anyway.

As far as AG, all I can say is someday. Extract is what I have time and space for now. Were planning a cross country move in the spring, so I don't want to take on any more equipment till then.
I am interested in why you think that might be though? It may help to know that this recipe called for half a pound of Belgian candy syrup and another half a pound of brown sugar. There's a broad range of different fermentables in it.

Thanks for the advice.

It's not really a question of having a variety of fermentables - the sugars are 100% fermentable. It's just that extract recipes can sometimes get stuck like what you've experienced. It seems like it should have come down more than it did though. You may try heating it, rousing the yeast, and maybe adding a little more sugar to encourage fermentation. I would try this before you add the second yeast. Your recipe was what, 8 lbs of light dry malt extract? That gives you 10 percent simple sugars. I usually go 20-30% sugar for a Belgian, as high as that may seem. I like them to finish dry. I think this beer has hope.

bottlebomber said:

It's not really a question of having a variety of fermentables - the sugars are 100% fermentable. It's just that extract recipes can sometimes get stuck like what you've experienced.

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I don't really think this is an extract/all-grain issue. If the OP is using high-quality extract, there should be more than 58% apparent attenuation. I believe that the OP racked WAY to early into a secondary (one week primary) without taking a gravity reading. Doing this will most likely cause a 'stuck fermentation'.

If the OP is truly having issues with his extract beers finishing entirely too high all the time, he should switch brands of extract or supplement his 'grain' bill with simple sugars.

Also, a 1L starter does next to nothing as far as cell growth. If you're an AHA member, check out the presentation from this year's NHC called 'Fermentation Mystbusters'.

Re-pitching and adding nutrients can't hurt.

AmandaK said:

I don't really think this is an extract/all-grain issue. If the OP is using high-quality extract, there should be more than 58% apparent attenuation. I believe that the OP racked WAY to early into a secondary (one week primary) without taking a gravity reading. Doing this will most likely cause a 'stuck fermentation'.

If the OP is truly having issues with his extract beers finishing entirely too high all the time, he should switch brands of extract or supplement his 'grain' bill with simple sugars.

Also, a 1L starter does next to nothing as far as cell growth. If you're an AHA member, check out the presentation from this year's NHC called 'Fermentation Mystbusters'.

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Just to clarify a few things, this was my third extract batch, an the first two finished on target. I am using light DME. I did take a gravity reading when I racked, and that's how I know it's stuck at 1.030.

The purpose of my yeast starter was not to culture a higher cell count, so much as to just stimulate activity.

Agreed that I racked too early. Thanks for your thoughts.

It is a Belgian.... and you did not ferment it at it's optimal range... your yeast is good up to 72 degrees and I think this is a LOW. Since from my reading a lot of Belgians are fermented up in the hight 70s.

FROM "Brew like a Monk"...

...and the Wyeast version of this, Wyeast 1762, is good up to 75.

So if it was me; I would let it sit at room temp 74-78 degrees for a three of four weeks and test again, since most of the fermentation has occured and you are unlikely to get a lot of "off" flavors at this point.

DPB

Hamsterbite said:

I did take a gravity reading when I racked, and that's how I know it's stuck at 1.030.

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So if you took a gravity reading and saw that the fermentation wasn't finished, why did you rack it to the secondary? Not trying to be an a$$, just curious over here.

AmandaK said:

So if you took a gravity reading and saw that the fermentation wasn't finished, why did you rack it to the secondary? Not trying to be an a$$, just curious over here.

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Simple answer...noob mistake. Most of the instruction I've gotten is from my LHBS, and Papasian's Joy of book. I've found that up until recently, it was common advice to secondary with every beer. That seems to have changed in the last 2 or 3 years and has yet to catch up with any publications older than that.
It's only from searching forums that I became aware of the shift in practice. That, and I visited my second LHBS this weekend, and the proprietor basically felt the advice I was getting from the first LHBS was old school.

Hamsterbite said:

Just to clarify a few things, this was my third extract batch, an the first two finished on target. I am using light DME. I did take a gravity reading when I racked, and that's how I know it's stuck at 1.030.

The purpose of my yeast starter was not to culture a higher cell count, so much as to just stimulate activity.

Agreed that I racked too early. Thanks for your thoughts.

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AmandaK said:

So if you took a gravity reading and saw that the fermentation wasn't finished, why did you rack it to the secondary? Not trying to be an a$$, just curious over here.

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Yeah, you never want to move beer off the yeast cake until FG is reached. As for the "stuck" fermentation, some strains of yeast can be slow to finish up and reach FG. I'm guessing the reason you're "stuck" at the gravity you had when you transferred is because you transferred the beer off of the main yeast cake (before the yeast was finished). What I would do in this situation is pitch an active starter, probably of the original fermentation strain as this isn't a very big beer. Make up a starter for the whole batch according to MrMalty, and pitch the entire contents when it seems to be at it's most active. That should get you down to a more appropriate FG.
As for the extract/AG thing, I think what BottleBomber's saying is that w/AG, you can control the fermentability of the sugars from the grains with mash temp. You can, and AG does allow you to have more control over your beer, but great beer, and beer with a low FG can easily be made w/extracts too. Look into adding all or some of your extract late, or at flameout. And always boil as much of the total volume as you can if you're not doing full boils. Those things, along with using a small amount (less that ~5%) of a simple sugar, like corn sugar (in addition to those in the recipe), can really help with extract beers.

Hamsterbite said:

I had in primary for 1 week at 65f. I racked it off to a glass carboy and kept it at 65 for another 2 weeks

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I did not have to read more than this sentence to know what your problem is. Your primary was not done. A hydrometer is the ONLY way to know when its done fermenting. Also, a Belgian in the 1.070's range needs more than 3 weeks time.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Yeah, you never want to move beer off the yeast cake until FG is reached. As for the "stuck" fermentation, some strains of yeast can be slow to finish up and reach FG. I'm guessing the reason you're "stuck" at the gravity you had when you transferred is because you transferred the beer off of the main yeast cake (before the yeast was finished). What I would do in this situation is pitch an active starter, probably of the original fermentation strain as this isn't a very big beer. Make up a starter for the whole batch according to MrMalty, and pitch the entire contents when it seems to be at it's most active. That should get you down to a more appropriate FG.
As for the extract/AG thing, I think what BottleBomber's saying is that w/AG, you can control the fermentability of the sugars from the grains with mash temp. You can, and AG does allow you to have more control over your beer, but great beer, and beer with a low FG can easily be made w/extracts too. Look into adding all or some of your extract late, or at flameout. And always boil as much of the total volume as you can if you're not doing full boils. Those things, along with using a small amount (less that ~5%) of a simple sugar, like corn sugar (in addition to those in the recipe), can really help with extract beers.

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Any reason not to repitch from the original cake? Despite SWMBO's disapproval, (That's another story) I saved and washed the yeast and am storing it in a mason jar in my (ok, our) fridge. As long as it doesn't smell off (I was careful and sanitary) I would just pour off the weak beer, and make a starter with boiled/cooled DME as per Mr. Malty right?
When I checked on it this morning after having moved it to 74F last night, there is some new action occurring. It's a slow action in the airlock, but there seems to be the beginnings of a new kraussen forming, so should I just leave it alone, or go ahead and repitch?

I brewed my fourth extract this weekend. This one will just stay in my primary bucket for three weeks . I almost gave the late addition extract method a shot. I found a calculator to adjust the recipe for the difference in hop utilization that would occur with a low gravity boil. What I was shooting for is an APA with 28 IBU's.
I decided against the late addition this time due to my kettle size. I have a 30qt turkey fryer, which is just barely large enough for a 6 gallon boil. I like the full boil method for hop utilization efficiency, but it's sort of playing with fire in terms of boilover risk with only 3 to 4 inches to the top of the kettle.
I've found if I add the DME as soon as steeping is done (At around 150F) that boilovers are much less likely. I also add the 60 minute hop addition at around 205F, just before boil is achieved.
I was worried that adding the DME at 10 mins would cause a boilover, or if adding it pre-mixed with warm water would prematurely stop the boil and screw with hop utilization.
Whenever I get a larger kettle (Probably a keggle) I will definately experiment with the late extract additions.

Hamsterbite said:

Any reason not to repitch from the original cake? Despite SWMBO's disapproval, (That's another story) I saved and washed the yeast and am storing it in a mason jar in my (ok, our) fridge. As long as it doesn't smell off (I was careful and sanitary) I would just pour off the weak beer, and make a starter with boiled/cooled DME as per Mr. Malty right?
When I checked on it this morning after having moved it to 74F last night, there is some new action occurring. It's a slow action in the airlock, but there seems to be the beginnings of a new kraussen forming, so should I just leave it alone, or go ahead and repitch?

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I would do exactly that and pitch at high activity. NordeastBrewer has good advice there.

bknifefight said:

I did not have to read more than this sentence to know what your problem is. Your primary was not done. A hydrometer is the ONLY way to know when its done fermenting. Also, a Belgian in the 1.070's range needs more than 3 weeks time.

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Ok, rub it in, rub it in. :cross: I think I tried to establish in my first post that I know early racking was the source of the problem and I won't be repeating that mistake. In the future, I will not put a time limit on any of my beers, I'll just go by TG vs FG, and know that bigger beers typically benefit from longer ferms.

What I'm really after with this thread is a way forward for this particular brew. From advice already tendered, I plan to keep at a higher temp, give it some time, and possibly repitch. When I get back this evening, if it looks like airlock/kraussen activity is continuing to increase, I'll probably just leave it be for a while.

Hamsterbite said:

Just to clarify a few things, this was my third extract batch, an the first two finished on target. I am using light DME. I did take a gravity reading when I racked, and that's how I know it's stuck at 1.030.

The purpose of my yeast starter was not to culture a higher cell count, so much as to just stimulate activity.

Agreed that I racked too early. Thanks for your thoughts.

Click to expand...

Hamsterbite said:

Any reason not to repitch from the original cake? Despite SWMBO's disapproval, (That's another story) I saved and washed the yeast and am storing it in a mason jar in my (ok, our) fridge. As long as it doesn't smell off (I was careful and sanitary) I would just pour off the weak beer, and make a starter with boiled/cooled DME as per Mr. Malty right?
When I checked on it this morning after having moved it to 74F last night, there is some new action occurring. It's a slow action in the airlock, but there seems to be the beginnings of a new kraussen forming, so should I just leave it alone, or go ahead and repitch?

Click to expand...

AmandaK said:

I would do exactly that and pitch at high activity. NordeastBrewer has good advice there.

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I agree, if you have the cake from primary, make a starter and pitch that at high krausen.
As far as boil overs go, if you add all the extract at flameout, you won't have any issue with that. Just be sure to stir well and make sure it dissolves all the way before cooling.

If it was me,,,, and there was "Activity" I might just leave it alone since your only other real option is to add yeast.

When I brew most English Ales I use Nottingham and toss it right on the wort, you could try that. True it will not be exactly what you were aiming for but you will have "Saved the Ale".

It is the cheapest way to go... then you other options are as already stated,,,

• Make a Starter
• Harvest some yeast
• Let it sit

DPB

I had exactly the same experience with my first high gravity beer, a Russian Imperial, OG of 1.086 and all extract. But my approach was more audacious, bordering on reckless. I did not oxygenate (merely splashed around for about a minute) and only pitched a single packet of S-04! After a month, it was clear I was stuck at 1.030. I pitched a packet of S-05 I had laying around: nothing. Pitched a packet of Champagne yeast (EC-1118): nothing. I did quite a bit of rousing along the way. All the while, the batch sat in primary. When my next batch came along, I pitched 1L of it at high krausen into the stuck fermentation. This seemed to do the trick, it came down to 1.026 or so. All in all, it sat in primary for about 2 months. I bottled and am still enjoying those nearly a year later.

Nothing wrong with waiting to see what happens, now that activity has picked up again. But if it stalls out again, yes, revive your original yeast cake in a new starter, as large as you can make it and at 1.040, keep the temperature at about 72F after you pitch and I'm pretty sure you will knock that FG down, though you may never reach your projected FG. Once it stalls out again, bottle and you'll be fine, even if a bit high. By the way, your yeast is a medium floccer, whereas S-04 is high, that is a plus. Be patient, there is nothing at all wrong with having that beer sit in secondary for months, in fact, its getting better by the day.

You probably know this, but don't oxygenate your beer. The starter, yes.

Back to life again. A couple days ago, the surface was clear. This is more like it.

Nice. Did you repitch, or is that just from letting it warm up?

No repitch, just a temp raise, and then a rousing.

Thanks all!

Thanks for all the tips, I'm having this same problem.

Its a chocolate milk stout (northern brewer recipe w/ 2 extra pounds of grain) mash 1 hr at 152; OG of 1.062 and its now at 1.030. One 5 gallon bucket has safale 04 and the other bucket has Wyeast 1332 for a side by side comparison - no starters / lazy aeration by splashing a spatula around. They are both at exactly 1.030 after 2 weeks at 74 degrees. I did already transfer them to the secondary today at 2 weeks and was surprised when the gravity was still so high I thought of the lactose but it only adds .006 at 1 lb / 5 gallons. Does anyone know what the finishing gravity should be?

Trey57 said:

Thanks for all the tips, I'm having this same problem.

Its a chocolate milk stout (northern brewer recipe w/ 2 extra pounds of grain) mash 1 hr at 152; OG of 1.062 and its now at 1.030. One 5 gallon bucket has safale 04 and the other bucket has Wyeast 1332 for a side by side comparison - no starters / lazy aeration by splashing a spatula around. They are both at exactly 1.030 after 2 weeks at 74 degrees. I did already transfer them to the secondary today at 2 weeks and was surprised when the gravity was still so high I thought of the lactose but it only adds .006 at 1 lb / 5 gallons. Does anyone know what the finishing gravity should be?

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The safale 04 has an attenuation efficiency of 70-75%, and the 1332 is 67-71%. So I believe your TG's are in the range of 1.016 to 1.019 for the Safale, and 1.018 to 1.022 for the 1332.

Hamsterbite said:

My method of pre pitch wort aeration is as follows...while my wort is immersion chilling, I counter flow stir for approx 20 minutes. I believe this helps to oxygenate as it produces a nice amount of froth. When it's fully chilled, I dump the kettle into my ferm bucket, and then back again several times.

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I won't lose any sleep over this, but this is probably an example of what NOT to do if you are concerned about HSA. I am not. At least, not yet.

It's a 1.072 OG that I had in primary for 1 week at 65f. I racked it off to a glass carboy and kept it at 65 for another 2 weeks.

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Like other have said your temp was at the low end. Belgian yeasts like to start out at that temp but do best if the temp is allowed to rise. Sometimes if the temp is too low the yeast will stall and not want to restart.

The other thing about Belgian yeasts is that they can start out fast and slowly take a long time to finish. Here is a good quote from Brew Like a Monk...

"Let the fermentation finish, perhaps at a higher temperature. It can take as long to get the last few points of attenuarion as it did for the firsh 80%"

I am glad you were able to get it started again, but make 100% sure that it is really finished. One of the first Belgians I did, I let it ferment for 4 weeks and thought it was done. The FG was in the predicted range. So I bottled it up. Obviously it was not done because I developed gushers. Not bad enough for Bottle bombs but I think verry close.

Keep the temps up and give it plenty of time to finish.