The Ongoing Saga of My "Brewing Degree".

I originally posted this in the DRMM forum, but decided to move the discussion here so I can keep it going.

I recently switched to a working adult-oriented college of the State University of New York, Empire State College. This college offers mentor-guided, independent study degrees, which can be tailored to many different disciplines. I asked, and received approval for an Interdisciplinary Bachelors of Arts in Brewing. Sounds crazy, but it's true.

I started putting my degree plan together today. I'm looking for ideas for areas of study. Where better to find inspiration than here? I literally have to create the classes, which will then be refined and approved by the university staff and my mentor.

I need to put together 45 high level credits to finish my degree. I'm thinking 25 in Brewing History, 10 in Brewing Science, and 10 in Business.

History is going to be broken down regionally, politically and socially.

Science is going to focus on principles of fermentation, ingredients and styles.

Business is going to focus on laws, marketing, and structure of brewing companies/corporations.

From there, I have to choose specific areas of study that are worthy of high level college credit. I know this sounds crazy, but it is legit. This school offers much more traditional degree paths, but to get something that says "brewing" on it, I have to create it myself and have it approved.

Any suggestions?

For science I think you should get some yeast biology. If you are considering starting your own brewery I think your business classes should include some accounting, business management, etc.

and why so heavy on the brew history? Brewstorian.... More science and def yeast bio as blizzard already suggested.

Sounds great! Nice to see you applying yourself for something you really want to do. I do have a suggestion though. Being a scientist, I think of brewing as it's own kind of science. All it really is, is a mix between chemistry and biology. With that said, I would definitely take the history credits down to 10 and split that extra 15 up between the science and business. I think that would help you out more in the future then knowing a little more of the history.

I actually agree with you guys on the science aspect, but the reason I am leaning against that is because when it comes down to it, this degree won't carry the same weight as one from say, UC Davis, even if I do all 45 credits in science/laboratory topics. So I'd rather focus on topics which I have a much better chance of getting approved for credit.

Maybe up the business aspects with a concentration on brewing/selling laws?

on the business side i'd go for accounting 1&2, marketing, business law, strategic planning, and economics (preferable micro-economics). Have you checked out the brewing schools for what their programs are structured like? That might give you some ideas on what to take. One of my friends did his bachelors through empire state college and it worked out pretty good for him.

I would seriously consider some accounting and/or finance classes in there.

Every university should have an introductory econ 101 type class which is usually micro.

Also agree with marketing. Statistics wouldn't hurt either but it seems like it's not a required class for many degrees, even though it ought to be IMO.

buffalobrewer said:

on the business side i'd go for accounting 1&2, marketing, business law, strategic planning, and economics (preferable micro-economics).

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In reference to business, I'm not talking general business classes, but including studies on the specifics of the beer business. Marketing is 100% going to be included, we actually talked about that today. So basically, not classes that one would take when pursuing a business degree, but brewing/beer business specific studies.

buffalobrewer said:

Have you checked out the brewing schools for what their programs are structured like?

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My mentor wants me to get as much info about the UC Davis program as possible, and to attempt to structure my plan similar to that one, minus the laboratory work which is not possible in this case.

Airborneguy said:

In reference to business, I'm not talking general business classes, but including studies on the specifics of the beer business. Marketing is 100% going to be included, we actually talked about that today. So basically, not classes that one would take when pursuing a business degree, but brewing/beer business specific studies.

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Do you already have a background in accounting, finance, and business management?

In most universities you cannot just take whatever class without meeting the prereqs unless you get permission from the professor teaching that class, and for good reason. Undergrad or graduate, no matter what you need to know the fundamentals to understand the context for the more interesting stuff.

The only pre-requisites at this school are 9 General Education categories of which a Bachelors student must fill 7. I am finishing my last one this semester. Again, I know it sounds crazy, but its true.

About an hour ago I recieved an email from my mentor detailing some more aspects of how she thinks the history credits will go. Its looking like I will have at least two classes on US brewing history. The first will deal with legal/political aspects from the Whiskey Rebellion to the Post-Prohibition era. The second will deal with the history of immigrant groups and their brewing practices, the establishment of the "Big 3", and technological innovations which were developed by the industry.

What are you looking to get out of this? Open a brewery? Get a job as a brewmaster somewhere? I'd have to think an established brewing degree would be much better than something you put together yourself when it comes time to apply for positions.

Less brewing history, more brewing business. Acct 101, 102, basic finance, marketing, business law 1 and 2, intro to stats. If you're able to taylor the classes around brewing, maybe dissect a half dozen breweries. Approach each brewery from an accting, finance, marketing, b-law, and stats analysis. For an applicable brewing degree, you'll need the business (and need some bio-sciences) much more than the history.

Sounds like a fantastic opportunity. Keep us posted.

Actually I'm just looking to finally finish a bachelors because I decided I want to have it as an example for my kids. I was expecting to do it in history so that maybe I could become a teacher if I want after I retire from my current career, but it morphed into this once I found out that I can customize my program.

I looked into Siebel's online program earlier this year, but they are not an accredited college, so its a certificate program, not a degree. More importantly, the GI bill won't pay for it, I looked into that. UC Davis is out of the question considering I have a full time job and a kid and live 2500 miles away.

My mentor wanted my to focus more on the scientific aspects of brewing, but I argued against it for this specific reason. I could do all 128 credits in brewing science topics and it would still be almost pointless other than to maybe a few small brewpubs. If anything, I could see this possibly impressing a few investors who aren't familiar with brewing education as credentials if I even try to go that route.

More than likely though, I won't be looking to become a professional brewer after I retire. I'm considering getting into the craft beer oriented bar business, not brewing. After working 20 years doing what I am doing now, I don't see myself being too motivated to bust my ass that hard again to get something going.

Hugh_Jass said:

If you're able to taylor the classes around brewing, maybe dissect a half dozen breweries.

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She actually wants me to try to get an apprenticeship at a brewery. I'm considering approaching JJ Bittings in Woodbridge, NJ to see if I can work something out early next year.

Okay, my mentor found me an instructor out of the Albany campus who is a homebrewer and an expert on European brewing history and technique. He will be guiding some of my more advanced "classes". Looks like this will really start getting underway next semester.

Unfortunately, I am also studying for a promotional exam at work, so I cannot take too many classes right now, which sucks because they are free under my GI Bill until January when I lose it. I might try to squeeze in one or two brewing classes in September and just take it easy on the work until the test is over at work.

I'll be updating as this goes along. If anyone from NY is interested, this is a great way to get a "brewing" degree without having to move to Cali or take a long "trip" to Chicago.

In addition to the business stuff of econ, acctg, etc., I'd double up on the marketing. I'd also throw in a psych course - specifically something dealing with the psychology of purchasing behavior.

I don't see how brewing history is going to be very helpful in either working in a brewery or opening one.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

I don't see how brewing history is going to be very helpful in either working in a brewery or opening one.

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Brewing History with regard to brewing is more useful than State History is to a Mathmetician. It's curriculum and has to follow the Educational Triangle (like the food triangle) to be well rounded.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but you could think about including some of the cicerone training into your cirriculum

FWIW the UC Davis program is heavy on engineering, and they actually require some engineering backround (either scholastic or OTJ) to even be accepted into the program. The reason for this? A huge portion of a brewers job is designing, operating, troubleshooting, and fixing fairly complex brewing equipment. To be good at this requires a fair amount of knowledge about engineering priciples. This is why the program studies fluid mechanics, heat transfer, solid/liquid separation mechanics, mechanical engineering, and microbiology. The international standard for brewers is the IBD DBE exam, and the UC Davis program is tailored to help students pass it. If you're serious about a brewing degree, you might want to look into getting the IBD to administer the exam for you at the end of your degree.

And +1 on some cicerone training.

I'm actually considering how to work BJCP styles into the program. I fell that should definitely be included. Where can I find specific info regarding Cicerone training?

ReverseApacheMaster said:

I don't see how brewing history is going to be very helpful in either working in a brewery or opening one.

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Not really my goal. I think I mentioned that somewhere. I have a career currently with a very good, and very early retirement, so I might consider getting involved in a business with someone else, but I doubt I'll ever be in position to be applying for brewing jobs.

This came up more because I needed to finish a degree for my current career to earn promotions, and since it can be ANY degree, and the college I am attending has the flexibility, it was a "Why not?"

Airborneguy said:

I'm actually considering how to work BJCP styles into the program. I fell that should definitely be included. Where can I find specific info regarding Cicerone training?

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BJCP training or certification was going to be my next suggestion.

Google is your friend, first result searching for "cicerone"-http://www.cicerone.org/

You mentioned that you already talked to Seibel about the GI Bill, but have you talked to the VA yet?

I'm thinking about just applying for it to see if they approve. They approve of dog grooming and cosmetology, why wouldn't they accept Brewmaster?

I did not check with the VA, give it a shot.

The reason I shied away from Seibel was that its not even worth college credit. It is a certificate program. This route might not be the most accepted in brewing circles, but it is worth college credit and will help me with promotions in my current, and much more important, career.

Met with my mentor today to develop more of my plan.

I am submitting for prior learning experience in the topics of Recipe Formulation/Ingredients (4cr), Beer Styles(2cr), Principles of Fermentation(4cr), Packaging and Storage(2cr), and Mashing/Boiling/Lautering/Cooling/Moving Wort(4cr).

I'm still fleshing out my Independant Studies, but I'm leaning towards 3 history classes (US, Germany, England), 2 business (marketing, Running a brewpub), 3 politics (prohibition/repeal, religious implications, AA/alcoholism), and 5 classes dealing with laws: distribution, distilling, taxation, permitting process, and homebrew legalization.

This should cover all of the requirements for the brewing part of the degree. My prerequisites will be complete after this semester (finishing humanities/culture with a philosophy class).

Again, I know this isn't UC Davis or Siebel, but this will be a SUNY University Degree with BREWING written in nice big words across it, so I'm pysched.

Here are my two prior learning essays (well the outlines as least). My mentor wants me to add a paragraph to each of them which compares this knowledge to a UC Davis or Seibel course. Seibel has descriptions of their courses online, so that will be easy to work on.

Beer Styles
Goal: 2-4 Credits

1. BJCP
Explanation
Historical Implications
Description of layout
Categories
Number of Styles

2. Difference between Lagers and Ales

3. Describe 5 ale styles

4. Describe 5 lager styles

5. Specialty beers style

6. Application of Guidelines
Recipe Formulation
Competitions
Judging Criteria
Commercial Applications

7. Are styles necessary?

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Recipe Formulation and Ingredients
Goal: 4 Credits

Part 1: Ingredients

1. Malt
Types
Malting/Roasting
Freshness
Milling

2. Hops
Types
AA%
Usage

3. Water
Hardness/softness
Basic additions

4. Yeast
Ale/Lager
Dry/liquid
Types
Propagation

5. Adjuncts
Sugars
Spices
Fruits
Rice/Oats

Part 2: Recipe Formulation

1. Flavor Profile/Style
Choosing Style
Base Grains/Flavor
Choosing Mash Schedule

2. How to Create Color/Add to Flavor
Specialty Grains
Dark Roasted Grains

3. Choosing Hop Schedule/Rates
Bitterness
Flavor
Aroma

4. Choosing Yeast
Ale/Lager
Desired Fermentation Characteristics
Temperature Range
Proper Pitching

5. Using Adjuncts
Why/When to Use
Choosing
Handling

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Just had a long talk with one of the professors who will be guiding most of my history related studies. He actually suggested capping my degree off with either the BJCP test or Cicerone training. I looks like this next semester I will be starting with a study of the cultural aspects of beer/brewing in either the middle ages or the 18th-19th century. He's going to put something together and get back to me soon. I can't wait to get started now.

I can see your wife comming in a saying " Are you getting drunk again..."

"Nope, Im studying for a test.

I don't understand how this 'college' is letting you 'make up courses' and apparently 'self study'...

are they accredited? It sounds like a 'choose your own adventure' degree that will be worth next to nothing in the job market.

It's one of the colleges of the State University of NY. What I am doing is a little outside-of-the-box for them according to my mentor, but they have a PhD professor who has studied brewing from all angles and has been a home brewer since 1978, so he is guiding all of my studies.

It's not as crazy as it sounds. Think in terms of a one-on-one distance class. I propose what I want to study and the professor creates an individual curriculum for the semester based on our discussions. We are in contact weekly over the phone and through their online class portal, Angel. My mentor helps me create an overall degree plan which has to be approved by the college board. All of my pre-reqs were done at a 'traditional' college over the last 3 years.

As far as this particular degree being worth anything in the job market, brewing-wise at least, it definitely won't get me a brewmaster job, but it would be perfect for a history teaching position if I go that route, or in conjunction with Cicerone training, it will set me up for opening the beer-oriented restaurant I'm planning at some point with a chef friend of mine, giving me "credentials" to show investors.

Right now, it's more for fun, burning up what's left of my GI Bill, and accumulating the required credits for promotions in my current job. I'm very close to 6 figures now (soon to be well over), so this isn't like some out-of-the-box, desperate attempt to get into the job market

Just finished up my rationale essay, a requirement to get my degree plan certified. The next step will be convincing the board that I already know enough about ingredients and recipe formulation for it to be worth some credits. I'm also going to try for credits on the various styles and their historical backgrounds.

Currently, I'm taking a traditional online class on the Cultural Aspects of Food and Drink. Of course my focus will be beer I have decided on a specific topic for my research paper yet, though I am considering the German culture.

All you have to do is convince your VOC REHAB Counselor that they need to is vendorize the school and it will get approved if the school wants to participate in the GI BILL or VOC REHAB. Just go thru the motions when you apply for VOC REHAB in the VA and work with the counselor and not against them. Kind of like marketing your new beer.

gfmontana