confusion about hops at flame out

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toddrod

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I am a bit confused at exactly what to do when a recipe says to add hops at flame out. I understand the basics, add them at flame out. My real confusion comes with how long do you leave them in the wort after flame out. 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, the entire time the wort is cooling? Please explain this to me as I have not been able to find an answer using the search button.
 
I am a bit confused at exactly what to do when a recipe says to add hops at flame out. I understand the basics, add them at flame out. My real confusion comes with how long do you leave them in the wort after flame out. 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, the entire time the wort is cooling? Please explain this to me as I have not been able to find an answer using the search button.

Yes, normally you leave them the entire time until you rack to fermentor. I would be difficoult to pull them out anyway :)
 
If you do the sink/ice bath method it might take 30/45 minutes to cool. I would think that would make the beer more bitter and take away from flavor/aroma.

I had the same question recently and the guy at my LHBS told me to remove the hops while I'm letting it cool, but I suppose that is easier if you are using muslin bags.

He could have been wrong though, so I'm interested in hearing other opinions.
 
Let me give a little more information.

I use pellets that I place in a nylon bag but i am will be making a bag with the paint strainer bag / PVC pipe mod that hangs from the top of the keggle.

I use a wort chiller that usually takes 15 minutes to get the wort down to 80-85 degrees.
 
I use pellets that I place in a nylon bag

Pellets in a bag? I don't think it is a good technique for any hoping, and especially for such late hoping. I toss the pellets loose, hop utilisation is better that way, and the results are more repeatable.

Bittering can't be an issue here, you won't get any IBUs from late hoping, no matter how long they stay in the wort, the bittering compounds need to be boiled to get soluble. Here you acquire only some more volatile hop oils and aromas. Of course the results can be variable, depending how fast you chill the wort, but we can do nothing about it.
 
If you do the sink/ice bath method it might take 30/45 minutes to cool. I would think that would make the beer more bitter and take away from flavor/aroma...

It won't make the beer any more bitter, the hops need to be in the acutal boil to bitter the beer.

When I do flame out additions I just chuck them in when I flame out (or cut the electricity to the electric kettle) and leave them in there.
 
Yeah, the time it takes to cool isn;t a large factor for bittering. Hops under a certain temp don't add effective bittering. You may get more aroma and flavour, but your beer won't be any extra bitter because it took 45min to cool down rather than 30min.
 
Oh nice, I learn something new every day. It was always a pain to yank those out while it was cooling so it's nice to know that I can just leave them in next time. Thanks for the advice.
 
Oh nice, I learn something new every day. It was always a pain to yank those out while it was cooling so it's nice to know that I can just leave them in next time. Thanks for the advice.

I believe you need 20-30 minutes of boiling temperatures to add significant bitterness to beer.

Also, many people use hop bags to steep their hops. Search "hop bag" here or on youtube and you'll find *lots* of information.

Nylon paint strainer bags are preferred.
 
Pellets in a bag? I don't think it is a good technique for any hoping, and especially for such late hoping.

I adamantly disagree. Defend yourself. Give me one reference.

I have NEVER heard this advice before - pellet hops work JUST FINE in a bag, and using them in a bag is a GOOD technique for hopping. Throwing them in loose is also a good technique. So is throwing them into a suspended hop-strainer-pvc-apparatus like the one I own and like the one the OP is planning to build. About the only bad technique with hops is leaving them in an open, unsealed bag, in a hot windowsill in July, in the sun.

....

But even that's a good technique if you're trying to debitter them for a lambic.
 
I adamantly disagree. Defend yourself. Give me one reference.

I have NEVER heard this advice before - pellet hops work JUST FINE in a bag, and using them in a bag is a GOOD technique for hopping. Throwing them in loose is also a good technique. So is throwing them into a suspended hop-strainer-pvc-apparatus like the one I own and like the one the OP is planning to build. About the only bad technique with hops is leaving them in an open, unsealed bag, in a hot windowsill in July, in the sun.

....

But even that's a good technique if you're trying to debitter them for a lambic.

Agreed. I throw all my hop pellets into a bag. Makes straining wort at the end much easier. I've made some very hoppy IPA's using hop bags too.
 
I am a bit confused at exactly what to do when a recipe says to add hops at flame out. I understand the basics, add them at flame out. My real confusion comes with how long do you leave them in the wort after flame out. 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, the entire time the wort is cooling? Please explain this to me as I have not been able to find an answer using the search button.


Let me make it more confusing;)

My Fat Owl PA
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=55221
is my variation of a California commercial beer called Sharks Tooth Pale Ale(94-98)
The steeping hops go against all normal logic, BUT they make a huge difference
 
I adamantly disagree. Defend yourself. Give me one reference.

I have NEVER heard this advice before - pellet hops work JUST FINE in a bag, and using them in a bag is a GOOD technique for hopping.

Well, originaly I heard it from other homebrewers and it seems logical for me.
Now I did some digging and found for instance this:

http://byo.com/mrwizard/1153.html
The most important thing to consider when using hops is that if they don’t get completely hydrated and exposed to the wort or beer (like in dry hopping) the acids and oils may not transfer from the hop pellet or cone into the liquid.

http://www.realbeer.com/hops/FAQ.html
Al Korzonas suggests adding 10% more hops if used in a hop bag,

Book "Designing Great Beers", Ray Daniels, page 78
the vigor with which your hops are boiled will be reduced if you use a hop bag, and thus utilization will decrease

Book "Radical Brewing", Randy Mosher page 65
boiling the hops in a hop bag noticeably reduces bitterness
 
Most of the bags I use are gallon paint strainer bags with the elastic cut off. I used to use the smaller muslin bags to tie them up with, but I felt like they were too restraint. I honestly don't know if switching to bigger bags helped with hop utilization, but in theory it did. Those smaller muslin bags used to be all that people used, (if they used them at all) so that's probably why the utilization went down.

To use an underwear analogy; muslin bags are like tighty whities, keeping the bits all bundled up and snug. The larger paint strainer bags are like boxers, still keeping things in line, but letting the boys roam free. And just throwing the hops into the kettle is obviously like going commando.
 
I put my hops in a gallon paint bag and there is no problems between it and the boil? My beers come out fine with hop utilization and come out too hoppy when I forget to take it out on time...duh.
 
Okay, there's a big difference between "not a good technique for any hopping" and "increase amounts by 10%". After all, one adds roughly 10% more hops when using Leaf varieties, does that make them bad too?

I construed your original post to be closer to "Hop bags? Are you crazy? You might as well just dump your beer, fool!"

I get it re: the tight, to-size muslin bags. I think pretty much everyone in this thread has been talking about paint strainer type bags, which allow for much freer movement. And even then - I used to use muslin bags for hops, and I noticed NO difference in utilization.

I'll concede that on large batches (20g-plus) and especially microbrewery size batches, sure, a hop bag doesn't make sense. At that point, you want much more circulation through the wort. But in 5gal, I'm prone to think it doesn't truly make a difference.

Thanks for the links, though, I appreciate you taking the time to back up your position. Can we leave it at "not exactly a myth but not exactly a problem"? Just like the other Boogeymen... HSA and Autolysis. They exist, but aren't a serious problem at a homebrew level.
 
Okay, there's a big difference between "not a good technique for any hopping" and "increase amounts by 10%". After all, one adds roughly 10% more hops when using Leaf varieties, does that make them bad too?

I construed your original post to be closer to "Hop bags? Are you crazy? You might as well just dump your beer, fool!"

Oh, my opinion wasn't that strict. Let's agree on such a statement - hop bags are good and acceptable technique, but loose hops are better. When you use a hop bag you have one more variable to calibrate in your system. When Korzonas suggests adding 10% more, Mosher writes about 25% - the exact number for you brewery you must guess.

On the other hand - using loose hops is not so painful. I used to use musline bags (in fact, I made some award-winning beers with them), then I tried once loose hops, it turned out that they don't create so much mess as I taught, and I continue using this technique.
 
I have never had any problems with just throwing the pellets in. I do use a paint strainer, as do many, when transfering to a secondary. That seems to clear things up quite nicely.
 
Interesting analogies. I'd suggest boxers, or going commando if you have other ways to deal with your bits freely flowing around in 212 degree wort.
 
Oh, my opinion wasn't that strict. Let's agree on such a statement - hop bags are good and acceptable technique, but loose hops are better. When you use a hop bag you have one more variable to calibrate in your system. When Korzonas suggests adding 10% more, Mosher writes about 25% - the exact number for you brewery you must guess.

On the other hand - using loose hops is not so painful. I used to use musline bags (in fact, I made some award-winning beers with them), then I tried once loose hops, it turned out that they don't create so much mess as I taught, and I continue using this technique.

I assume you state this in reference to whirlpooling and an Immersion Chiller.

Try using a plate chiller and not bagging your hops........

I have never increased my hop measures based on bag use and have never had a problem. The problem is not the bag but the size (or lack) of the bag.
 
FWIW, while watching a video about Jim Koch and Sam Caglione teaming up for a special brew for a SAVOR event, they threw several muslin sacks of whole leaf hops into the kettle. Seems some of the bigger boys do it too. They didn't seem to be stuffed tight, but appeared to be less free flowing than an ounce or two in a gallon bag. I can sure see a plate chiller being a problem with 6 or 8 oz of pellets being a problem...
 
I've been using a plate chiller recently, which is an upgrade from an immersion chiller. The immersion chiller would take aobut 20 mins so my flame out hops could steep. Now, with the plate chiller i can run the wort through the chiller immediately.

My question is, how long should i let my flame out hops steep before running the wort through the plate chiller and into my fermenter?
 
I add pellet hops to my hoppy beers during mid-flameout, when the wort is not quite 212 F, but more like 170-180 F. I keep them in the wort until it chills to 65 F and I always have awesome aroma. I find that more of the flameout hop aromas are upheld this way as opposed to tossing them in at 1 minute left or actual flameout. I use a slow working ice bath to chill 4 gallon batches in about 40-50 minutes and have no problems with clarity, flavor, or aroma.
 
I adamantly disagree. Defend yourself. Give me one reference.

I have NEVER heard this advice before - pellet hops work JUST FINE in a bag, and using them in a bag is a GOOD technique for hopping. Throwing them in loose is also a good technique. So is throwing them into a suspended hop-strainer-pvc-apparatus like the one I own and like the one the OP is planning to build. About the only bad technique with hops is leaving them in an open, unsealed bag, in a hot windowsill in July, in the sun.

....

But even that's a good technique if you're trying to debitter them for a lambic.

Wouldn't that make them skunky as well as de-bittered? Aren't you supposed to age them in a paper bag somewhere dark?
 
Haha, a bit off topic, but fair retort. :p
I haven't tried to age any hops for lambic brewing, myself. It turns out that I have hops aging faster than I want them to already.

And as to the other topic in my reply - the hop bag - Would like to report in that my pvc-plastic-collar Home Depot hop strainer is still kicking strong. I haven't even changed the original paint strainer bag yet. Last month, I brewed an IPA with 6oz pellet hops, all of it was thrown inside of the strainer bag.
 
Maybe I'm the only one that uses the 5 gal paint strainer bag for my hops? I just use a metal spring clamp to hold it to the side of the kettle. It pretty much rids any loss of utilization and makes adding your hop additions super easy.
 
Maybe I'm the only one that uses the 5 gal paint strainer bag for my hops?

I do this as well. But not for the dryhop. I just toss the pellets in, which eventually sink to the bottom. Tthe carboy is easier to clean this way because you don't have to worry about squeezing the nylon bag bulging with hops out of the small opening.

One thing you have to watch out for when using nylon bags for hops during the boil, is slight scorching on the tip of the bag from some flames reaching up the sides of the kettle. This is easier to avoid if you tie the bag to the kettle handle away from the flames (use a clip, or a thick rubber band). DO NOT wrap the entire kettle opening with the nylon bag. You will get scorching that way for sure.
 
I'm using a Penrose Kettle for my boil pot. I also use a hop spider with the 5 gallon paint strainer bag. The bag is long but not long enough to reach the bottom of the 15 gallon Penrose kettle.

It might seem wasteful but I throw out my strainer bag after every batch. A 2 pack of 5 gallon bags is less than 3 dollars at home depot. That is worth it for me, not to have to clean muck hop pellets from a bag.
 
Back to the original question. If you can hold the wort around 200 F for a while after boiling, you will get more aroma from the hops. The hops need to be added right at the end of the boil, or preferably a couple of minutes after the boil. If they are added a couple of minutes before the end, a lot of the oils will have been boiled off. The longer you leave them in the more you get out of them. It's a case of diminishing returns with time. I leave them in with the lid on for 15 minutes before turning on the water into the chiller. I think you need to keep the temperature above 180 to get much effect from it.

And, no, you don't get an increase in bittering from this method.
 
You're over thinking this. Add them whenever you want. Most people add them as soon as the flame goes out. I make 4 gallon batches and add my "flameout" hops after 15 minutes of cooling in an ice bath. I get better results with this method vs. adding them directly after the boil.
 
I poked the thermometer that came with my turkey fryer twice through the top of my paint strainer bag, then clipped the thermometer to the side of the pot. Made it easy to pull the bag out when I wanted to add another dose of hops or to wring every last drop of precious wort from the bag.
 
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