An affordable option to building an all electric system?

"We recommend grounding the frame of your brewery to protect everything. The ground from a GFCI should be attached to the frame. We can build a 4-wire version of the EBC II if you prefer. We don't use a GFCI ourselves, it's not like a hot tub where you are sitting inside the thing. The potential risk is in the case of a heating element failure, which is extremely rare, and we recommend simply hitting the Off switch in this case."

Watch out for the fodder!

I think if you like the products you should buy them. Just understand that when you ask advice about off the shelf stuff in a DIY forum you will get all these responses telling you to build it yourself. Hey if I had the money I would still build this stuff myself cause I like the research and tinkering aspect. I hope you took no offense to me telling you to learn and build your own I just get excited about the geeky stuff.

wildwest450 said:

What is everyone using to control their boil kettle element? A potentiometer, or some other device?

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I use an ssr fired by a pwm (pulse width modulator) from bakatronics $7.99

dkershner said:

Just to be curious, what exactly would need to be repaired in these systems? Seems to me that a well-wired electrical system should last longer than the element or many other parts of the brewing system. I've never had to replace any propane plumbing on any of my brew setups...although I don't have pilot lights and automated burners either.

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Well I have only done three brews on my system when in the middle of the third the ssr failed on. I could not figure out why the PWM was giving the off signal and the element was still heating. I check everywhere for a short and then got out my meter and found that the SSR even when it was showing off. I was getting 120v on the leg. I had an extra so it was not a big deal. That is about the only thing besides the element that I would expect to break. Knowing how to troubleshoot that would be a plus, but also a good company will warranty against something like that.

gunner65 said:

I use an ssr fired by a pwm (pulse width modulator) from bakatronics $7.99

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This may be a dumb question but I know nothing about a PWM. How difficult was it to keep a rolling boil? Do you reduce the power to the heating element or reduce the time the element is powered?

You reduce the time it fires. Not the voltage. So 5 seconds on x seconds off depending on the position of the knob.

It works great. I would be pissed if I had to deal with little buttons on a PID for an hour.

ksarauer said:

This may be a dumb question but I know nothing about a PWM. How difficult was it to keep a rolling boil? Do you reduce the power to the heating element or reduce the time the element is powered?

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The pwm has a potentiometer (turn pot with knob). As you turn the knob up or down you increase/decrease the amount of time the ssr fires the element. I have just done a test run with water and I turned the pot full on until it reached a full boil then I just backed it off until I got the rolling boil I was after. It is really the same principal as a PID in manual mode but the PID gives you a percentage reading.

gunner65 said:

I use an ssr fired by a pwm (pulse width modulator) from bakatronics $7.99

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Thanks!.......

Perfect, just what I'd like. Does anyone have schematics of how they are wired? I'm guessing it would it be similar to a PID and SSR?

ksarauer said:

Perfect, just what I'd like. Does anyone have schematics of how they are wired? I'm guessing it would it be similar to a PID and SSR?

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A quick search here will give you tons of info on PWM controlled kettles. The wiring is very simple there is an input 12 VDC (power in) and an output 12 VDC that goes to the SSR. It took me all of 15 minutes to solder the little kit that I bought from bakatronics.

My .02,
If you are going to do something like this, I would put a sub-panel in your brew area. Sounds like alot, but its really not that hard(depending on how far away your home panel is). If you are going to get electricity out there adding a small sub-panel is very easy. They make a "Hot tub" panel (50 bucks)that would be perfect, 50A. GFCI is a must, you are on concrete that is poured on the ground. You should talk to a local electrician or consult NEC. Having the sub-panel nearby will save you from walking all the way back to your house panel if you trip a breaker and make any upgrades a snap!

As for the rigs you are looking at? I would personally look for something UL listed or UL certified. This will guarantee a fault will trip your breaker, not start a fire (and as far as I could see, you don't have any drywall in your shed-so there's no fireproofing).

The whole neutral and dryer plug thing could easily be solved with a samll 2:1 transformer built into the controller. Many ovens have a 220V 3W plug (no neutral), but have 110V lights and timers.

BTW, yes-I am an IBEW electrician!

I agree that a 50A sub panel is a good idea. They are also the cheapest way I found to get GFCI for my system.

I just finished up an electric build that was fairly simple. I had one controller, one temperature probe, a few switches and plugs, and two relays to switch power to the elements on and off using the temperature controller. The build was under a grand and works well.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/modular-electric-brewery-177852/

This is probably one of many. A PWM circuit. Enjoy.

BigJoeBrews said:

My .02,
If you are going to do something like this, I would put a sub-panel in your brew area. Sounds like alot, but its really not that hard(depending on how far away your home panel is).

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Actually my 100 amp service will be 15 feet from my rig. And once again (for the fifth time) my old man is a licensed electrician.

OK, sorry. I read that your dad was a licensed electrician, everytime. I also read in your first post you wanted the electric experts to take a look??? Maybe thats where we are all confused... Anyway, other homebrewers may be looking for answers in this forum-homebrewers who are not related to electricians.. We're just trying to help

BigJoeBrews said:

OK, sorry. I read that your dad was a licensed electrician, everytime. I also read in your first post you wanted the electric experts to take a look??? Maybe thats where we are all confused... Anyway, other homebrewers may be looking for answers in this forum-homebrewers who are not related to electricians.. We're just trying to help

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No worries, by the context of your post, I thought you didn't know I had acess to my own personal electrician.

wildwest450 said:

My system will be in a dedicated brew shed (check my sig). I will have a 100 amp service at my disposal. I'm planning on having 2 30 amp 240v plugs. I e-mailed the company with everyones concerns about their setup and this was their reply-

"We recommend grounding the frame of your brewery to protect everything. The ground from a GFCI should be attached to the frame. We can build a 4-wire version of the EBC II if you prefer. We don't use a GFCI ourselves, it's not like a hot tub where you are sitting inside the thing. The potential risk is in the case of a heating element failure, which is extremely rare, and we recommend simply hitting the Off switch in this case."

If you would post up some pics of your setup.

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Ok, I remember your build thread for your brew shed now. Sounds like you are all set with a 100A service in the shed.

In regard to the email response: I don't see an alternative to the 4-wire unless (as mentioned earlier) they are using a transformer which I doubt they are judging by the size of the enclosure. I would never recommend to not use a GFI. Although, I agree the risk potential is low, why take a chance? That said, I still have to wire in my spa panel after using the HLT for about 4 months without incident. I also am an electrician. Seems my electrical projects at home remain unfinished far longer than other things.

I will post some pics. I dont have anything now, but will take some this weekend. Have you asked your father if he would help you with a build? He may just enjoy it. I know I had fun with my build. I have some hand drawn schematics of my build I would be happy to share if you are interested.

lschiavo said:

Have you asked your father if he would help you with a build? He may just enjoy it. I know I had fun with my build. I have some hand drawn schematics of my build I would be happy to share if you are interested.

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Certainly, he's all in on anything want to do. As soon as I told him about it he went home and started goggling stuff. He called me and asked me if I everheard of a site called HomebrewTalk.com. Any schematics you want to share are welcome. The more research I do, the easier I believe it will be to do myself.

Hi wild, just wanted to let you know I live about 1.5 hours from you. I have built a system from scratch you can check out in my gallery. Also here.
Consider yourself invited to come down and check out the system and/or a brewday, if it might help you in some ideas or clarifications.

Wildwest, the electric part of the electric brewery is really not that bad. I knew not much about electric myself, and educated myself. I started with Pol's Bling-thread, and that's what i used for my basis.. and am growing from there on. It really took alot of reading all the different threads and thinking about it, looking up the parts etc.

If I can do it, anyone can.. I dumb
You could too, especially if you have dad to help you with it..

Talking about my e-keggle, i love it. Never going to propane again!
Here's what i made, and damn proud of it

If your dad's an electrician, you want to build this yourself. It is daunting, but you will figure it out. Once you get all the parts and see how they would you realize that it's actually pretty damn simple.

The biggest problem is that there isn't one thread that explains it all, and Pol's original thread/system has some problems and is too long to easily read. Oh, and everyone here argues about the best way to do everything and makes everything way too complicated. Just pick a system and build it. Get PIDs for your HLT and BK and you'll be in good shape. You don't need more than 5500W for 5 gallon batches. I would try to get something around 3000W for the HLT. Good luck.

Budzu said:

Hi wild, just wanted to let you know I live about 1.5 hours from you. I have built a system from scratch you can check out in my gallery. Also here.
Consider yourself invited to come down and check out the system and/or a brewday, if it might help you in some ideas or clarifications.

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That's a sweet offer! I may take you up on it. I'm sure things would be much clearer once seen in person. That's a nice setup.

wildwest450 said:

Certainly, he's all in on anything want to do. As soon as I told him about it he went home and started goggling stuff. He called me and asked me if I everheard of a site called HomebrewTalk.com. Any schematics you want to share are welcome. The more research I do, the easier I believe it will be to do myself.

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So he found HBT: and there is some wildwest guy on there trying to do exactly what we are

Here is a few shots of my brewery. There are more in my gallery. I assume you can see them. I just signed up and am getting used to the features yet.

It is still a work in progress. Lots of little things to finish up. But it makes beer! I am still boiling with propane. BTW, the photo dates are way off.

Very nice. I think you could have put your hlt a few inches higher.

dutch-brew said:

Here's what i made, and damn proud of it

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I'm rebuilding my control box and I think I am liking the converted tool box. I used to think it was a little ghetto, but sometimes it takes me a while to appreciate true genius. I think it is perfect for my system.

I wonder how many e-keggles have "The Pol" design potted pvc connection? I know it works great for mine! Thanks be to Pol!

wildwest450 said:

Very nice. I think you could have put your hlt a few inches higher.

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Thanks. The HLT could go higher. It wouldnt matter as I never have to get into it. It is totally plumbed in with solenoid valves. I push a button to fill and another to drain. I also have it plumbed to my sink for hot water there.

lschiavo said:

Thanks. The HLT could go higher. It wouldnt matter as I never have to get into it. It is totally plumbed in with solenoid valves. I push a button to fill and another to drain. I also have it plumbed to my sink for hot water there.

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Yeah, that's a very cool feature. I like the recirculation feature on it, too. I have a weird "stirrer" but lschiavo's actually recirculates the water, to "stir" it. It's an awesome HLT system, and I'm extremely jealous.

gunner65 said:

I wonder how many e-keggles have "The Pol" design potted pvc connection? I know it works great for mine! Thanks be to Pol!

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I agree.. i can't take any credit for any of my items in my setup.. it's all inspired by HBT members. I was thinking of doing a proper thread later on with pic and thanks to all the members that helped/inspired/gave advice, but for now i will thank these members right here..

thanks (in no particular order),
Pol, passed pawn, code rage, Kal and probably a few more i can't even think of right now.. couldn't have done it without you guys.



Passed Pawn: i like the toolbox setup, i can take it all apart, take the control box inside instead of in a shed, and brew inside or outside (i have a long power-cord).. Next i am putting a computer fan in it for cooling, another switch and some outlets and then it'll be done.

jkarp said:

Looks like nothing more than a PWM driven SSR to regulate power to the element - maybe $40 in parts. Most brewers would prefer to have some sort of temperature control in their systems and use off-the-shelf PID controllers that are even easier to wire up. If you really have your heart set on just a dial control for the kettle alone, I know various PWM designs has been written up here a number of times.

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Post the design please

Electric brewing looks cool. If you rent and just have "normal" wiring and can't re-wire your apt. you can't do it though I assume????

akthor said:

Electric brewing looks cool. If you rent and just have "normal" wiring and can't re-wire your apt. you can't do it though I assume????

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It is cool. Do some searching, there are people who use 110v heat sticks for boiling. It limits you somewhat, but is doable.

ErinWhite said:

Post the design please

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A quick search here gets you several PWM threads. Start with this one:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/pwm-boil-kettle-control-159193/