Starter with Dry Yeast

I don't know if that is proper terminology .. But my question is.. I'm planning on brewing a Brewers Best IPA kit. It comes with a dry yeast.. I haven't opened the box to find out what kind.

However, what I want to know is.. Is it at ALL helpful to put the yeast into a flask with a starter to get it really going before pitching?

Reason I ask is.. I've only done two brews so far.. neither of them have formed much of a krausen.. FAR from the kind that need a blowoff. I was hoping to get something pretty active going with a lot of yeast bodies to fart CO2.

I have a flask.. and I have a stir plate in the mail..

Thanks for your thoughts... Bill

You do not need to make a starter for dry yeast. I usually just throw the dry yeast into the carboy as I am emptying my boil kettle. If I am brewing a huge beer I will re-hydrate the dry yeast in warm water before I pitch it. I usually use liquid but as of late have been using a lot of dry yeast because they are a lot easier to use and I dont need to worry about making a starter a couple days before.

Chromados

Have your previous batches attenuated appropriately? If so, don't worry about the size of the krausen.

With quality dry yeast a starter is actually counter productive. With kits, often the yeast is junk and possibly old depending on the age of the kit. So if it is a Danstar or Safale yeast with a good expiration date don't do a starter. If it is a no name on the package yeast, either replace it or dare I say make a starter. When I first started brewing some of the kits came with 7 gram packets of yeast that were undersized for the beer, they would have benefited from a proper yeast pitch.

Thanks guys..
Mc.. I don't really understand attenuation yet.. I started at 40 and reached 14 with 20 someodd days in the FV. Full extract.. no steeping grains.. Coopers kit.. the yeast was almost newly packaged. Coopers also.

samc.. Thanks, didn't realize it could be counterproductive. My latest brew.. a Morebeer Am Amber did the same thing.. started at 56 and hit 14 after 20days in the primary.. I used new date Safale 05. Actually got a bit more krausen from the Coopers.. but the Safale produced almost no foam at the top. I'm sure this means little as it did ferment quite well. I don't think this could be considered a big beer to use more than one packet.

Thanks again..

Also don't oxygenate wort if using dry yeast. The yeast don't need it so it'll just increase staling.

HbgBill said:

Thanks guys..
Mc.. I don't really understand attenuation yet.. I started at 40 and reached 14 with 20 someodd days in the FV. Full extract.. no steeping grains.. Coopers kit.. the yeast was almost newly packaged. Coopers also.

samc.. Thanks, didn't realize it could be counterproductive. My latest brew.. a Morebeer Am Amber did the same thing.. started at 56 and hit 14 after 20days in the primary.. I used new date Safale 05. Actually got a bit more krausen from the Coopers.. but the Safale produced almost no foam at the top. I'm sure this means little as it did ferment quite well. I don't think this could be considered a big beer to use more than one packet.

Thanks again..

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If your yeast could convert all the sugars to alcohol, that would be 100% attenuation but yeast can't eat all kinds of sugars so there is always some left. If the yeast ate 75% of the sugar, that would be 75% attenuation.

It really isn't quite that simple but that is the general idea.

ChillWill said:

Also don't oxygenate wort if using dry yeast. The yeast don't need it so it'll just increase staling.

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Yeah, I cant believe that as I pump pure oxygen into all my beers if I am using dry, or liquid yeast and have never had a stalled fermentation using any yeast. The only time I would recommend not oxygenating is if you are not using a saccharomyces yeast and are just infecting the brew.

Chromados

ChillWill said:

Also don't oxygenate wort if using dry yeast. The yeast don't need it so it'll just increase staling.

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This is 100% false . When I aerate my wort really good (5-6 inches of bubbles) I get fermentation activity within 4-8 hours if I don't it's taken up to 3 days.

chromados said:

Yeah, I cant believe that as I pump pure oxygen into all my beers if I am using dry, or liquid yeast and have never had a stalled fermentation using any yeast. The only time I would recommend not oxygenating is if you are not using a saccharomyces yeast and are just infecting the brew.

Chromados

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Read carefully. He said staling, not stalling. These are two different problems.

RM-MN said:

Read carefully. He said staling, not stalling. These are two different problems.

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Either way, suggesting that someone not oxygenate the wort prior to pitching their yeast is foolish. It is proven that brewers yeast require oxygen as this is a aerobic process. If dry yeast did not require oxygen it would be known throughout the hobby.

Chroamdos

yeah, where did you get the info that dry yeast doesn't need oxygen? you don't need a starter with dry yeast, just rehydrate and maybe add another package if you need more cells.

but adding O2 at fermentation increases the speed by which it goes stale?

Lipids built into dry yeast reduce the need for oxygen, check Danstar for Oxygen requirements.

Oxygen requirements does not mean that it doesn't benefit your beer. The temperature requirements may be 65f-75f but if you ferment at 75f your beer will not be its best. Yeast does not necessarily make the best beer under its optimal conditions.

chromados said:

Either way, suggesting that someone not oxygenate the wort prior to pitching their yeast is foolish. It is proven that brewers yeast require oxygen as this is a aerobic process. If dry yeast did not require oxygen it would be known throughout the hobby.

Chroamdos

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FYI I was told this information at the Nottingham University / SABMiller research facility by Chris Boulton (Brewing Yeast and Fermentation: Amazon.co.uk: Chris Boulton, David Quain: Books) and Chris Powell who previously worked at Llallemand in Canada (where they make Nottingham, the worlds best selling dry yeast).

As has been previously suggested, died yeast is pre-grown with high lipid levels and hence doesn't need oxygenation (as the oxygen is only needed to synthesize lipids and there is already a sufficient amount, thus no more oxygen is needed).

However, once the dried yeast has been used for a fermentation; if you wish to reuse it, you should treat it as wet (ie. oxygenate).

So in conclusion... the information I provided wasn't really foolish in my opinion.

*Edit* I'm assuming the correct amount is pitched by the way. But that's a completely different topic.

that sounds like legit info then. --- what page is that from?

rellot said:

that sounds like legit info then. --- what page is that from?

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Straight from the horses mouth.

Chris Boulton is one of the leading figures in yeast and fermentation and said oxygenating wort with dried yeast was unecessary and inadvisable as it'll increase the rate of staling. Chris Powell reinforced the point; he was the project manager at the Genetic identification lab at Lellemand and the senior scientist in brewing research (who worked on improvements of viability of dried yeast).

It was at a workshop/lab session that I was sent to a couple of weeks ago (also had one on wort production).

ChillWill said:

Also don't oxygenate wort if using dry yeast. The yeast don't need it so it'll just increase staling.

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Always oxygenate your wort before adding yeast, dry or liquid, once the wort is at pitching temps.

ChillWill said:

Straight from the horses mouth.

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if you can find it in print from someone respected like him, that would end this thread and basically be new information for most.

I'm hoping it's true, and the logic makes sense from my limited knowledge of the subject. I'm not trying to say you aren't remembering what he said correctly, because you very well could be. It's just that someone's memory of what someone else said is not the same as all of us seeing the original person's words in print, or on a video or something.

I imagine dry yeast companies would want consumers to know info like this. So if you (or anyone else) can find something like that, I would love to see it. FAQs on dry yeast companies' websites usually just address that you don't need to make a starter, not this.

hope2perc said:

Always oxygenate your wort before adding yeast, dry or liquid, once the wort is at pitching temps.

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Why do you say that?

Rellot - I'll see what I can come up with buddy, but it was only last week and I can remember it perfectly clearly.

We also did quite a bit on the drying process and why rehydration is so important.

Also... found out yeast nutrient is useless as the only thing malt doesn't provide is sufficient zinc (well it does, but it usually ends up in the trub). Interesting!

HbgBill said:

I don't know if that is proper terminology .. But my question is.. I'm planning on brewing a Brewers Best IPA kit. It comes with a dry yeast.. I haven't opened the box to find out what kind.

However, what I want to know is.. Is it at ALL helpful to put the yeast into a flask with a starter to get it really going before pitching?

Reason I ask is.. I've only done two brews so far.. neither of them have formed much of a krausen.. FAR from the kind that need a blowoff. I was hoping to get something pretty active going with a lot of yeast bodies to fart CO2.

I have a flask.. and I have a stir plate in the mail..

Thanks for your thoughts... Bill

Click to expand...

I always make a starter for my yeast since I use the dry kind. I've done BB kits and they have come with dry yeast and I've done starters for those also.

After I have added all extracts and started my boil I take a sample(about 1/2 a cup), cool it down to room temp. I pour my yeast into it I cover the sample with some seran wrap and I stir for a few minutes. After about an hour it starts to foam. Then you know its alive. Good luck.

Samc, above, is correct. Dr. Clayton Cone, whom I think is one of the absolute authorities on dry yeast, says not to use oxygen when pitching dry yeast.

Crabtree Effect and Overflow Metabolism | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage

so for dry yeast it seems no O2 for low gravity beers, but add 02 about 14 hours after pitching for high gravity beers.

In low gravity brewing, oxygen at the beginning of the fermentation is usually adequate. It is when you get into hi gravity brewing that additional oxygen is helpful after 12 to 24 hours of fermentation. Dr. Mike Ingledew has found that aeration at about the 14th hours is optimum for high gravity brewing. We have found that aeration after 36 hours is optimum for wine fermentations.

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I would assume for high gravity beers with liquid yeast the same is true about the second addition of O2. So for high gravity beers and liquid yeast, O2 at pitching and then 14 hours later.

Well, this thread has evolved from where I started it.. but, that's good. I learned I'm not supposed to O2 my extract wort with dry yeast... WHICH I DID on my last batch. We'll see how it turns out.... I hope I hope I hope.. it'll be OK.. I'm sure It'll be drinkable.. but... Live and learn.. or ask questions first. I never gave oxygenating a second thought. Common practice one way or another.. right.. Guess I was wrong.

HbgBill said:

Well, this thread has evolved from where I started it.. but, that's good. I learned I'm not supposed to O2 my extract wort with dry yeast... WHICH I DID on my last batch. We'll see how it turns out.... I hope I hope I hope.. it'll be OK.. I'm sure It'll be drinkable.. but... Live and learn.. or ask questions first. I never gave oxygenating a second thought. Common practice one way or another.. right.. Guess I was wrong.

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Don't be worried . I'm still not convinced I've aerated almost every batch along with most people on this forum.
The ones I didn't aerate took 2-3 days for fermentation to begin where as the same yeast I've had take off In 4 hours with aeration.

I also don't see how shaking up room temperature wort before pitching yeast can have any adverse effects at all. Please tell me different with a straight face.

This thread will promote newbies not to aerate and we will see an increase in the " 2 days still no fermentation category".

Aeration & Oxygenation are different. Atmosphere has 21% or so Oxygen, so shaking up the fermenter is not the same as pumping pure Oxygen into your wort.

passedpawn said:

Samc, above, is correct. Dr. Clayton Cone, whom I think is one of the absolute authorities on dry yeast, says not to use oxygen when pitching dry yeast.

Crabtree Effect and Overflow Metabolism | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage

Active Dry Beer Yeast initially contain enough lipids in their cell wall for 3 - 4 growth cycles. This is enough to complete most beer fermentations. Recycled yeast usually do not contain enough lipids for 3 - 4 growth cycles. The lipids must be replenished with fresh additions of Oxygen.

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Reading that page, it doesn't seem like he's saying not to oxygenate. Rather, he's saying if you don't oxygenate, you'll still get enough yeast growth to complete a normal fermentation.

If oxygenating means your yeast are in better shape at the end of the fermentation, it seems plausible that there's still some benefit to be derived.

The one thing that reference is clearly NOT saying is "aerating when using dry yeast is bad." Some other source may make that claim, however.

chitownbrewer said:

I always make a starter for my yeast since I use the dry kind. I've done BB kits and they have come with dry yeast and I've done starters for those also.

After I have added all extracts and started my boil I take a sample(about 1/2 a cup), cool it down to room temp. I pour my yeast into it I cover the sample with some seran wrap and I stir for a few minutes. After about an hour it starts to foam. Then you know its alive. Good luck.

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That's not a starter, that's proofing.

You should always rehydrate (with boiled and cooled tap water, not distilled... or you can also use a 50/50 water/wort mix), otherwise osmotic shock will damage the yeast.

dogbar said:

Reading that page, it doesn't seem like he's saying not to oxygenate. Rather, he's saying if you don't oxygenate, you'll still get enough yeast growth to complete a normal fermentation.

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This link is the one I was looking for: Aeration and Starter Versus Wort | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage

Yes you are right, Cone never says too much O2 is bad.

Here is Bobby_M's experiment with Dry Yeast. He tests with/without O2, and with/without rehydrating. There is also a control batch in which he as a much larger pitch rate than recommended. The conclusions are listed at the end of the video, but it seems that

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOrfmzpDmPk]Dry Yeast Experiment - YouTube[/ame]

Ozzfest05 said:

Don't be worried . I'm still not convinced I've aerated almost every batch along with most people on this forum.
The ones I didn't aerate took 2-3 days for fermentation to begin where as the same yeast I've had take off In 4 hours with aeration.

I also don't see how shaking up room temperature wort before pitching yeast can have any adverse effects at all. Please tell me different with a straight face.

This thread will promote newbies not to aerate and we will see an increase in the " 2 days still no fermentation category".

Click to expand...

Well said, especially that last part.

Great work Bobby_M!!!

I think it mostly has to do with the OG of your wort. If there are enough yeast cells to ferment the beer, without the need to reproduce, then oxygen may not be required. BUT if the yeast do, in fact, need to multiply, then oxygen is most definitely needed. Which would support the idea of needing to oxygenate high gravity wort, but not low gravity wort.

The best idea is to just use Mr. Malty and figure out exactly how many yeast cells your wort needs and make your decision based on that. A 1.048 gravity ale, fermeted with dry yeast with 90% viability, requires 177 billion cells, which is a little less than a 11.5g packet of dry yeast(~200 billion). In that situation, pitching the entire packet, you would not need to oxygenate.

The dry yeast will reproduce without oxygen.

I think the idea to oxygenate 14 hours after pitching on a high og beer is excellent. Although when I do a big beer I like to use loads of slurry, ideally washed as you should get better attenuation from the yeast selected from this method (as the lazy floccy poop should fall out with the trub in the washing process).

But also you suggested, pitching to Mr malty figures is a good practice the majority of the time.

Looks like we have the classic contest between conventional wisdom vs experts (well Bobby M is not an expert, but his experiment is convincing).

facts can't persuade those who already know the truth.

For some reason I can't watch the Bobby M video on my phone, but if active fermentation starts earlier with the nonaerated batch, then wouldn't the experiment again suggest that oxygenation matters? The lag phase, prior to active fermentation, is when the yeast are reproducing. If that lasts longer in the presence of oxygen, then either it's taking longer (plausible?) or you're seeing more rounds of reproduction, and thus a higher cell count (of healthier yeast, seems to be the gist of passedpawn's other link).

John Palmer says to aerate the wort before pitching. And he never mentions either Dry or Liquid yeast.

anyone used dry yeast and a stir plate to GROW the yeast? we do NOT have the ability to go buy yeast living in El Salvador, so we want to take one packet 11.5 grams of a safale yeast and 4x it using stir plate starters. it SEEMS that there is enough lipids to go 3-4x in each packet and since we need about 800B cells and each packet has about 200 B cells we need to 4x it cell count wise. our thought is this: do a smaller starter with the dry yeast and double it, then double that batch again to get to 800B cells and about 2-3 liters. we are trying this out but any thoughts on the concept? are we on the right track or stupid? we do not have any liquid yeast, cant buy more yeast easily and need to BOTH conserve yeast packets AND make a 70 liter batch. We will begin yeast farming after this. now that we have two stir plates and temperature controlled ferm chamber

shouldn't be a problem. i think the usual debate is whether or not to make a starter or add another package. The cell count in 11.5 grams is higher than in the usual liquid yeast container.

But if you just need more cells, propagate away. I don't know how big a starter to use though. Wyeast says if you take their smack pack (100 billion cells) and use a 2L starter, that will double it. So for 11.5 gram dry (20 billion per gram or 230 billion), I would think something like 1 gallon would double it. I don't know if wyeast means with our without a stir plate, though. That would make a big difference.

Mr. Malty says for 70L at 1.048 you need 623 billion or three 11.5 gram sachets. So I don't have any clue really how big a starter you need, or how much to step it up to. I guess I would just keep stepping it up and use the "repitch from slurry" button on Mr. Malty's calculator until you get enough.