LEAST aggressive yeast

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shotgunner

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Hi all, I just put my into thread in and have a question.

I saw the thread about the most aggressive yeast with all the results. I am making vinegar and am using novel sugars for the alcohol hoping to have a large range of naturally flavored vinegars. The problem is aggressive yeasts eat complex sugars too and leave "dry" product. I am seeking a yeast that only eats simple sugars and leaves behind all complex sugars for flavor in my end product.

Slow is OK. Time I have.

Anybody have suggestions??
 
Well..... it needs both.

First you must produce the alcohol that the 'mother' needs. The mother converts ethanol to acetic acid. I am making the vinegar all the way from scratch. Sugar/yeast = alcohol, transfer to secondary aerate, add mother and wait a few months for vinegar.

Just wanting to make flavors unavailable in stores such as maple vinegar. I have lots of ideas for trying to produce novel vinegars for making sauces, mustards, salad dressings.....
 
Oh, that sounds like a an amazing idea and I would love it if you documented your experiments here. How about a British strain such as WLP002 or Windsor?

Perhaps you could use something like a sweet mead/wine yeast.
 
Thanks Harry. I actually made a blog for this purpose. I'll be sure to link to it in my signature so everyone can see the results. Not much there now. MOre as I do and learn more.

I guess a yeast made for porters/stouts may be in order.

Any other ideas? Perhaps a resource indicating the aggressive (or lack there of) nature of various yeasts?

Been surfing around. Looks like I want to add an aquarium pump and stone to my setup. This WILL make happy Acetobacters!
 
Just about any wine or ale yeast will ferment all of the sugars available. What I would suggest (or at least, what I do for malt vinegar and wine vinegar) is starting with a lower gravity must/wort. This will make less acidity in the vinegar. For example, if you want to make a wine vinegar instead of making a 12% wine and then diluting it and adding the mother, start with something that would be, say, 6% ABV. To do that, start with a lower OG must. Since any fermentable sugars will be consumed, start with an OG of about 1.045 (a wine or any ingredient will simple sugars will usually ferment to .990).
 
Just about any wine or ale yeast will ferment all of the sugars available.

The history behind my question is thus:

I many moons ago I made a batch of doppelbock. I used "ale yeast". It was the most awesome beer I had made and went back for a second batch. The second batch I could not get the same yeast and the store owner said "try this champagne yeast, it is very similar".

We had no yeasts with part numbers or whatever. We had dry yeasts labelled "ale yeast", "lager yeast", champagne yeast...

Well the finish gravity of the champagne yeast batch was 0.995! Enough alcohol to make the finished product lighter than water. The flavor was extraordinarily dry and not desirable at all. The first batch was very sweet and malty. All of these more complex carbs left behind in the first batch were utilized by the champagne yeast to yield a higher alcohol beverage.

Thru this I learned that all yeasts are not equal in what is "available". Thus the statement "Just about any wine or ale yeast will ferment all of the sugars available" while true; is not very descriptive in an across the board blanket statement. The fact remains that what is fermentable is different depending upon the yeast strain utilized.

Thus I still continue in my quest for the least aggressive yeast. The one that will leave the complex carbs and flavors alone.
 
I dunno. Fermentable is fermentable, as far as I know. Sure, different ingredients and processes may lead to a more or less fermentable wort/must, but as far as I know, any yeast will consume whatever they can...
 
Thus I still continue in my quest for the least aggressive yeast. The one that will leave the complex carbs and flavors alone.

You experience is unusual, and even with champagne yeast the beer shouldn't have fermented that low. If you didn't have that experience, I'd say it's not possible. Unless you used simple sugars, which will easily go to .990.

In any case, ANY wine/ale yeast, even bread yeast, will easily go to 9+%. So your idea of finding an less attenuative (not aggresssive) yeast strain will not work. Starting with a lower OG WILL work.

For example, if you start at 1.040, no matter what happens and how "aggressive" the yeast is, it's not possible to go below .990. Then, it's finished and you can add your aceterobacteri. If you start at 1.100, it'll still probably go to .990. So, if you start lower at the beginning, you issue isn't an issue at all.

Simple sugars will completely ferment, that's just the way it is. So, if you add less simple sugars in the beginning, there is less alcohol to be converted to vinegar meaning a less acidic vinegar.
 
Try danstar windsor it's dry and easy. Last time I used it it left a very high final gravity.

Either that or mash high. You could also steep some grains if you use extract.

Edit - I just reread your post. I think you would be better off adding some of the original sugar to the final product. I made some applewein in to apple cider vinegar and it came less like apple cider vinegar and more like regular vinegar.

I learned a few things making that batch of vinegar.
 
I dunno. Fermentable is fermentable, as far as I know. Sure, different ingredients and processes may lead to a more or less fermentable wort/must, but as far as I know, any yeast will consume whatever they can...

Then why does it matter which yeast to use at all? Since they all ferment the same things they should all leave the same flavors behind.

They don't and the reason is some yeasts ferment more aggressively than others.

Please see the answers by Harry and ShakerD.
 
Then why does it matter which yeast to use at all? Since they all ferment the same things they should all leave the same flavors behind.

They don't and the reason is some yeasts ferment more aggressively than others.

Please see the answers by Harry and ShakerD.

Flavors produced by different yeast strains are independent of their ability to all fermemt things that are fermentable.

Take the same yeast strain, under pitch in one batch, ferment at a high temp in another batch, and ferment properly in a third batch and youll wind up with three different flavor profiles; yet approximately the same fg.
 
Then why does it matter which yeast to use at all? Since they all ferment the same things they should all leave the same flavors behind.

They don't and the reason is some yeasts ferment more aggressively than others.

Please see the answers by Harry and ShakerD.

Their answers nonwithstanding, the yeast strain doesn't "ferment more aggressively than others". Fermentable sugars ARE fermentable sugars, and ale/lager/wine/bread yeast will all give you about the same results.

Again, the key is starting with a lower OG in the beginning.
 
You experience is unusual, and even with champagne yeast the beer shouldn't have fermented that low. If you didn't have that experience, I'd say it's not possible. Unless you used simple sugars, which will easily go to .990.

I used no simple sugars like glucose or sucrose. All malt extract with specialty grains for flavors. Back then all grain brewing in the home was in it's infancy. People did it, but the techniques were mysterious.

The champagne yeast ate ALL the carbs turning them to alcohol leaving very little flavor and a very very dry product. The "ale" yeast did not do this. There is a difference. If different yeasts yield a different flavor in beers, they will do the same for the vinegars. The flavors will carry thru.

In any case, ANY wine/ale yeast, even bread yeast, will easily go to 9+%. So your idea of finding an less attenuative (not aggresssive) yeast strain will not work. Starting with a lower OG WILL work.

For example, if you start at 1.040, no matter what happens and how "aggressive" the yeast is, it's not possible to go below .990. Then, it's finished and you can add your aceterobacteri. If you start at 1.100, it'll still probably go to .990. So, if you start lower at the beginning, you issue isn't an issue at all.

Simple sugars will completely ferment, that's just the way it is. So, if you add less simple sugars in the beginning, there is less alcohol to be converted to vinegar meaning a less acidic vinegar.

@Yooper I think you misunderstand my question. While I have less actual brewing experience than 99% of the members of this board, I am completely aware all simple sugars will be consumed. I understand the process of making the alcohol quite well.

Further, I do not know the genesis of the idea I needed help on making a low acid vinegar. Of course my product will be made with controlled gravities/alcohol contents and therefore acid levels that provide the best flavor profile for that product. I am not trying to necessarily attenuate the acid content, I am trying to MAXIMIZE the flavor aside from the acid.

To this end, what I am trying to locate is a yeast that will ONLY utilize simple sugars and leave the complex sugars and other carbohydrates alone. These will persist into my vinegars and provide flavors not present in production vinegars.

Just as Stouts taste different than Weissbiers, than Coors, than..... , so will the vinegars made from these products taste different. But they'd all be 'malt vinegars'.

Thus my question was and still remains, which yeasts are least aggressive? Which ones will not eat the more complex sugars and carbs!?!!?!!

shoutouts to ShakerD and harrydrez! :mug: you guys have given me a place to start.

@Yooper, clearly once I have found my favorite yeast for a given fermentable, then I will have to work with various gravities until I get a final product that pleases me. Thanks for taking the time to try to help out. I do sincerely appreciate it.
 
Try danstar windsor it's dry and easy. Last time I used it it left a very high final gravity.

I googled it and learned I needed to learn about "attenuation". White Labs provides a terrific primer on this topic.

Lower attenuation yeasts leave the same wort with a higher final gravity than a higher attenuation yeast. Leaving behind more flavor.

Less alcohol too. Maybe that is how @Yooper misunderstood my question. Thinking my goal was less alcohol because I wanted less fermentation to happen.

Just so I am clear, my goal is MORE FLAVOR the actual alcohol/acid content will be easily controlled by starting gravity. Now that I have the terminology I needed I can research the yeasty-boys websites to find my test subjects.

Lucky for me a 24oz bottle will be a terrific test volume. Make a half gallon of wort, split it into 4-6 treatments, pitch and ferment. I won't have to play with half a dozen carboys!
 
Just another tip

8% alcohol will translate to 5% acetic acid. That doesn't account for evaporation.

I am curious to see how this turns out.
 
What if you mashed at a high temp so you don't have many simple sugars? IIRC, you are wanting more body left behind, so mash in at 158 or so?
 
What if you mashed at a high temp so you don't have many simple sugars? IIRC, you are wanting more body left behind, so mash in at 158 or so?

Maynard, yoo rock! Great idea! Make the same recipe with more complex carbs. Man, this project is getting BIG! Now I gotta test mashing parameters AND yeasts!

Thanks to all of you. Truly, your input is amazing!
 

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