"Boil The Hops, Not The Malt Extract" By: Steve Bader

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Do you want to do a late extract addition with dry or liquid extract?
 
homebrewer_99 said:
This is nothing new...

I've been doing Late Extract Addition and small boils since 1994...a full 8 years BEFORE it became a "new technique"...;)
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So what techniques are you using now? I would love to be the first on the bandwagon so in a decade or so I can talk about how I used this so called 'new' technique back in 2009! :tank:
 
cford1 said:
So what techniques are you using now? I would love to be the first on the bandwagon so in a decade or so I can talk about how I used this so called 'new' technique back in 2009! :tank:
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I got the idea from Papazian's TCJOHB book back in 1994...the Hops Utilization Cahrt actually...as well as knowing the extract was already "cooked" once before so why re-do it.

If I'm brewing an all DME batch I try to keep my DME poundage equal with my water gallonage...for a 1:1 ratio for the boil.

If I boil 2 gals I'll use 2 lbs of DME, 3 lbs:3 gals, etc.

Now I'm mostly doing Partial Mashes, but use the same equation. Only difference is I convert the grain poundage to DME poundage to keep the boil water equal like before.

I've never done a full boil or an all grain. I have all of the equipment except a burner which I should be getting soon. I'm still trying to decide if I want a simple KAB4 or the rack setup w/2 burners, I think it's an RBA 5 or 6.

I ALMOST did an all grain a couple of batches ago. I only used 1.5 lbs of DME in the late addition.

I also have a wort chiller, but I still top off/cool my wort with several gallons of filtered water that I place in the freezer for a couple of hours prior to brewing.

A wort chiller seems like a big waste of water right now, but come winter I will probably use it to spray down my driveway when it gets snow covered. :D
 
Hell, I assumed he was kidding when he appeared not to understand my post....

Anyway, No, I never fell for that boil yer extract stuff--except for a couple beginning batches back in '98 or so. My references were to the constant forums responses admonishing newbies, and others, that they *must* boil their wort for it to be any good. Sure they may start out pointing out late extraction, but end up adding to that their own opinions that completely render useless the late extract procedure.

Bader's piece on Boil The Hops, Not The Extract was the only readily handy article I found at the moment; many others, yes--but most with additional dos and don'ts to cloud the issue.
No, I'm not going to play your game of providing references, etc.
Enough narc-issism around these days as is.
 
I've got a question for anyone willing to weigh in - If I follow the instructions in the Bader article, and assuming I drop my I.C. at about 10 minutes to flame-out to sterilize, if I dump 5 pounds of DME on top of that, will I be able to stir that well enough to keep the extract from sticking to my coils and making a big mess? It just seems like the coil is going to cause a problem.
If I drop the coil in after I stir in the DME, with the temperature around 170deg, will that be sufficient heat for sterilization?
 
kidoduck said:
I've got a question for anyone willing to weigh in - If I follow the instructions in the Bader article, and assuming I drop my I.C. at about 10 minutes to flame-out to sterilize, if I dump 5 pounds of DME on top of that, will I be able to stir that well enough to keep the extract from sticking to my coils and making a big mess? It just seems like the coil is going to cause a problem.
If I drop the coil in after I stir in the DME, with the temperature around 170deg, will that be sufficient heat for sterilization?
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In my experience, the extract clumps but breaks up really easily with some stirring. There are a couple of things you could do to avoid any possibility of a proble, though- one is to sanitize your chiller with a sanitizer and don't put it in the boil at all. Another is do take out about a quart of the wort with a saucepot, and add the DME to it. Stir well, to dissolve the DME thoroughly, and pour it back into the brew pot. I would probably be inclined to just stir the wort vigorously and "whirlpool" it a bit as I added the DME. I think that would be fine, and that no DME would stick to the chiller. (I haven't actually done it, though, of course!)
 
sub-zero said:
What is the benifit to a late dme/lme/ addition? Wow lots of post deleated on this one lol
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There are two main benefits to adding the bulk of the DME/LME late in a partial boil. (I can't think of any benefit in a full boil).

One is to keep the brew lighter colored. In my experience, an extract beer is almost always darker than the commercial version, or the AG version. The reason is that the extract can darken during the boil. Adding the extract late keeps that from happening. Another benefit is the increased hops utilization. Boiling the hops in a lower gravity wort gets the best bittering out of them. It simulates the hops utilization you'd get in a full boil.

I experienced that first hand a few years ago. I made my Dead Guy Clone as a regular partial boil (boiling 2.5 gallons of wort and topping up with water to 5 gallons). The next time, I added the bulk of the extract late in the boil. To my taste, it was almost twice as bitter! Later on, when I got Beersmith, I added the recipe to it. Sure enough, the IBUs in the partial boil were approximately 15- but jumped to 30 IBUs with a partial boil.
 
From the artice linked in the first post:

7) Let the beer sit at this high temperature for 10 minutes to sanitize the malt sugars you just added to the beer.
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In the previous step, it said the temp would get down to 170 -- that is the "high temperature" referred to in the quote.

1) Doesn't it have to boil to become sanitized?

2) what about all the advice about cooling the worst as fast as possible to avoid hazy beers?

Thanks!
 
peripatetic said:
From the artice linked in the first post:



1) Doesn't it have to boil to become sanitized?

2) what about all the advice about cooling the worst as fast as possible to avoid hazy beers?

Thanks!
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1. No. I mean, it's canned or bagged. It's already pretty darn clean. You could add it to boiling wort at the end of the boil and that is plenty hot to sanitize it. I think 30 seconds at 160 is fine for pasteurizing milk, so 10 minutes over 200 is probably overkill for the extract anyway.

2. Once it sits at that high temperature, then you can bring it down fast. You want to cool it fast, but usually it's at 80-140 degrees that is the danger zone for bacteria to grow. Also, the cold break happens as the wort cools rapidly from about 140 down to 70 or so.

When I've done this, I've added the extract with about 5 minutes left in the boil, so I just turned off the flame after the boil and considered it good. I never kept the temperature up after the boil, I started chilling right away.
 
I usually throw my LME in late and have it in there just long enough to make sure it's completely mixed in and then go right to cooling. I design my recipes to go with that method. Works great with large partial mashes when you already have decent gravity wort boiling without the extract.
 
Thanks Yooper looks like you could save on the hop bill going this way. :) I have been doing full boils but it looks like its time to play. ;)
 
Are there any known issues with a late extract addition? Like for example, is there a problem with not achieving (and then removing the results of) a hot break?
 
Theoretically, malt extract has already experienced a break. I'm not saying you can't achieve a hot/cold break in extract brewing to some extent, but it's likely to a much lesser degree than one would get when brewing all grain. Also, all of the DMS and other nasties have long since departed malt extract, further lessening the requirement for a lengthy boil.
 
Yooper said:
There are two main benefits to adding the bulk of the DME/LME late in a partial boil. (I can't think of any benefit in a full boil).
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This is from the hip thought, but I would assume a full boil in extract brew would help with hop utilization and with your steeping it would help to extract more color, flavor and sugar (based on simple diffusion principle). Though I have been doing a ghetto collander sparge at 170F to rinse off grains with a gallon and a half of water too. Some say your tannins will increase from steeping in more water (has anyone actually experienced this?) and it will make the beer bitter (I do 5 gallon steeping and have never experienced this).

It only stands to reason that a full boil would increase your hops utilization. I do feel like the extract beers I have made twice in full boils seem to have more body. But that could also be that I have gotten better at doing certain things more consistentlty.

I do always do a 50/50 late addition, usually at the 15-20 minute mark.

I get the saving money on the hops bit, but unless it is an IPA, I probably wouldn't want to mess with the batch to save a few bucks on hops. In many cases you would be using a fraction of an ounce. This means that you would have a bunch of old hops lying around.
 
Lots of new things going on for my next three brews...it's my first jump to partial mash and with that, I'm going to try late extract addition so this thread was a good find (although, I know there are tons on here regarding the same topic!)
 
CidahMastah said:
This is from the hip thought, but I would assume a full boil in extract brew would help with hop utilization and with your steeping it would help to extract more color, flavor and sugar (based on simple diffusion principle). Though I have been doing a ghetto collander sparge at 170F to rinse off grains with a gallon and a half of water too. Some say your tannins will increase from steeping in more water (has anyone actually experienced this?) and it will make the beer bitter (I do 5 gallon steeping and have never experienced this).
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I don't think Yooper meant that she doesn't see the benefit of doing a full boil. I believe she meant that she doesn't see a benefit to doing a late extra addition if you're doing a full boil.
 
So let me get this straight:

1) There is no reason to boil your extract. It's already been boiled in order to make it in the first place. The only thing boiling will do is darken the color and potentially carmelize the sugars and produce "extract twang."

2) Any worries about sanitization while doing late addition extract are moot, because the wort is still plenty hot at flameout to guard against infection when you introduce the extract.

3) Hop utilization does not depend on the gravity of your wort - tests have shown that boiling hops in high gravity wort and low gravity wort come out to the same IBUs. It's the time and volume of the boil that affects IBUs, not the gravity.

If those statements are true, why do people do 50/50 or, all at 15 mins. or any other kind of split or timing? Why wouldn't you just steep your specialty grains or, if you don't have any, boil your hops over plain old water? Why introduce any extract into the boil at all if hop utilization is not a factor and the only potential result of boiling your extract is discolorization and off-flavors? Am I missing something here? Is there any reason to boil any extract at any time other than personal preference?
 
TTB-J said:
1) There is no reason to boil your extract. It's already been boiled in order to make it in the first place. The only thing boiling will do is darken the color and potentially carmelize the sugars and produce "extract twang."
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I completely agree with the carmelization bit, but at least in my experience the 'extract twang' is coming from old LME. I did a few batches of Brewers Best Kits that could have been quite old and they were twangy. After switching to DME, I haven't had the issue.
 
New Brew said:
TTB-J: Your first two points are pretty widely accepted at this point.

Point 3 is much more contentious though; the topic of hops utilization, and even what an "IBU" really means when it comes to homebrewing is a recent and ongoing controversy.

Check out this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/estimating-bitterness-algorithms-state-art-109681/
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I would contend that the first two points have a bit of a spin on them. (there are reasons and it doesn't give wort a twang - I have never experienced it...) It isn't that there isn't a reason to boil the DME LME, because there are stylistic reasons to do so. An IPA for example, could benefit from a lighter color and less carmalized taste with split late addition. A Brown ale would possibly benefit from all the DME up front, more carmelized flavor.

I think it comes back to the point that it is a tool, in your toolkit. Once you understand it, you decide how to use it.

Just as making a sanitizing choice on your extract. Yes, DME LME it was sanitized when it was made, then packed, then the package was touched, by people air things.... For me, that is enough reason to ensure my late addition gets 10 minutes of boil at a minimum.
 
ChshreCat said:
I don't think Yooper meant that she doesn't see the benefit of doing a full boil. I believe she meant that she doesn't see a benefit to doing a late extra addition if you're doing a full boil.
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Gotcha - I still believe there are benefits or "stylistic options" if you will. See my previous post.
 
I think I might try this when I brew tomorrow. I'm brewing NB's cream ale. Why don't the instructions in the kits ever suggest this? If I buy a kit has the manufacturer taken this into consideration? I mean would this affect the recipe negatively in any way?
 
BWN said:
I think I might try this when I brew tomorrow. I'm brewing NB's cream ale. Why don't the instructions in the kits ever suggest this? If I buy a kit has the manufacturer taken this into consideration? I mean would this affect the recipe negatively in any way?
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I don';t think so. The kits always have the same recipe, but different ingredients, perhaps a different steep time. I go my own way with sparging and late additions with all my kits now, they turn out great. I think the way they are written up in kits is to keep it simple for a first time brewer, so they won't have to juggle as much. Both make good beer, but I feel like this way works better for my palate.

A cream ale is one style that I feel would benefit from the late addition (clearer lighter beer potentially)

Good luck!
 
I'm just starting to boil, I guess I'll try it and see what happens
 
I did it this morning. The final gravity was supposed to be 1.040 but was 1.047. Would adding the extract late affect this? I don't really care too much about getting the same OG as the instructions but I am usually closer than that.
 
gunnyg said:
"Boil The Hops, Not The Malt Extract" By: Steve Bader

Here's the only guy I've found who comes right out in print and says this--and he's referring to extract, DME/LME; hopped/unhopped, etc.

Bader Beer & Wine Supply
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Good article. I normally do all-grain brewing but here in the mid-south, summer temps and humidity can be brutal. I am going to try extract brewing for the summer months and have purchased an extract kit for an American Lager. The kit consists of .5 lbs grains, 3+ lbs, pilsen light LME and 1 lb. pilsen light DME, plus 2 lbs. rice syrup solids. The instructions want you to add all the extracts and boil for an hour. I am thinking here that I would steep the grains in 2.5 gallons of RO water and remove. Bring to a boil and add about a third of the LME plus the bittering hops for 30 minutes, then add the late hops and boil for 5-10 minutes. Pre-mix the DME and rice syrup solids in a gallon of cool RO water to make a slurry and add that to the kettle and mix well. Then, top up with enough cool RO water to make 5 gallons. Chill as much as ground water can do, then refrigerate the wort to pitching temperature of low 50's F, pitch yeast and wait for the magic to happen.
If anyone sees anything wrong with this or has a brilliant suggestion, it would be greatly appreciated. I haven't made beer from extract since the days of can-and-a-kilo so I am hoping this turns out to resemble a lager.
 
TennBrewer said:
Good article. I normally do all-grain brewing but here in the mid-south, summer temps and humidity can be brutal. I am going to try extract brewing for the summer months and have purchased an extract kit for an American Lager. The kit consists of .5 lbs grains, 3+ lbs, pilsen light LME and 1 lb. pilsen light DME, plus 2 lbs. rice syrup solids. The instructions want you to add all the extracts and boil for an hour. I am thinking here that I would steep the grains in 2.5 gallons of RO water and remove. Bring to a boil and add about a third of the LME plus the bittering hops for 30 minutes, then add the late hops and boil for 5-10 minutes. Pre-mix the DME and rice syrup solids in a gallon of cool RO water to make a slurry and add that to the kettle and mix well. Then, top up with enough cool RO water to make 5 gallons. Chill as much as ground water can do, then refrigerate the wort to pitching temperature of low 50's F, pitch yeast and wait for the magic to happen.
If anyone sees anything wrong with this or has a brilliant suggestion, it would be greatly appreciated. I haven't made beer from extract since the days of can-and-a-kilo so I am hoping this turns out to resemble a lager.
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Depending on whay style you're brewing you can get good results without boiling at all. You get some bitterness at below boiling temperature. Styles that have low IBUs can be made with steeping the hops at 180-200f.
 
TennBrewer said:
I am hoping this turns out to resemble a lager.
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When aiming for the lightest color possible, you may want to add all the LME at flame-out. Boil the hops in just the wort made from the steeping grains (like the article suggests).

You may also want to identify the actual initial color of the LME. I suspect one can do this by making a small wort that matches the OG of the beer you are brewing: maybe dissolve the LME in cool water, measure color, then add wort to the kettle at flame-out.
 
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